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Cities around the world that are reducing car access

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Comments

  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    “A lot of the small boutiques in the city centre would have a high proportion of mature customers, who are well heeled and living in wealthy suburban areas. Many of that generation don’t cycle and don’t want to take crummy buses with bottles and cans rolling down the aisles.”

    They actually said the quiet part out loud.

    Wealthy shoppers deterred from Dublin city, says business group




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,395 ✭✭✭McGrath5




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,477 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    No doubt they'll judge on the side of the person contesting the pedestrianisation, but I think Ireland is feeling like a lost cause

    https://www.thejournal.ie/malahide-fingal-county-council-pedestrianised-new-street-high-court-5518991-Aug2021/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,329 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Cork City Council installed fake trees at a cost of €380k that consume electricity and water to operate, to tackle air quality on Patrick Street. The laugh being that they are too lazy to enforce the actual bus lane on Patrick Street, which is routinely clogged with private cars that shouldn't be there. Greenwashing at it's finest.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Lyle Langley laughing all the way to the bank after selling those yokes to CCC.

    For the cost of just one of those things, they could easily have repaved the entire street to ban private vehicles, make more room for bikes and pedestrians, and plant multiple mature real trees.

    "Greenwashing", I like that.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,984 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I'm not sure if it is true or not, but I heard them saying that these moss walls absorb the equivalent pollution of 200 trees. So if true, they aren't a bad idea in and of themselves. I agree however that they just need to do more pedestrianisation and stop listening to the small, but vocal, local traders who are against it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,329 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Yes they are a bad idea. An absolutely terrible idea. That claim of 200 trees has never been verified and is only coming from the manufacturer. They also require electricity to operate and thousands of litres of water to be pumped into them as well as annual maintenance. Any possible benefit is immediately offset by that. Furthermore €380k would buy you c.7,000 or so native Irish trees of 2 to 4 metres in height. Trees don't need electricity or pumped water and require very little maintenance also. They are also beneficial for birds and insects and provide shade and reduce temperatures of exposed concrete/tarmac in built up areas. Those robo trees offer none of those benefits.




  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,984 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Come on, it is a bit much to get upset about using water in Ireland, it isn't like we are short of it. And news flash for you, trees use massive amounts of water too!

    Fair enough on electricity, though if it is coming from renewable resources, it isn't a big deal.

    Of course I'd prefer full pedestrianisation. But if there is there any truth to the 200 claim, then it really isn't a bad idea for dense city centers where lots of trees aren't usually possible. Though ideally in-conjunction with full pedestrianisation and trees where there is space for them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,329 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    There is no truth to the 200 tree claim. Examiner even said the manufacturer had withdrawn that claim as there was no scientific basis to it. NEWSFLASH for you: Trees use rain water that falls from the sky. These things need a pumped supply of water that uses energy. Totally incomparable.

    Here's an article from the Netherlands where they installed these things in 2018 in Amsterdam to great fanfare. They were removed a year later due to being ineffective and actually turned out the fans inside them increased the circulation of dust and particulates. They ultimately removed less than 1% of what was promised. The moss inside also died and had to be replaced - not very green is it.


    But the experiment turned into a failure. Experts from the GGD and Wageningen University calculated that the City Trees provided less than 1 percent less particulate matter. Because the moss panels suck in air and blow it out again in one direction, they give not less but more nitrogen dioxide along the facades of valkenburgerstraat.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    CO2 levels are not an issue in an urban area that these trees could even *begin* to make a dent in. it's pure tokenism; street trees are not a solution to the CO2 issue and never have been.

    "One CityTree equals 275 natural trees and can convert 240 tons of CO2 equivalents from dust pollution and soot per year, it said. " ( https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40356071.html )

    240 tons a year? i.e. 660KG *a day*? ye what?


    anyway, a normal (full grown) tree absorbs CO2 at maybe 20KG per year. a petrol car idling, not moving, produces about 1.5KG of CO2 per hour. or 30 times as much in an hour as a tree can absorb in a day.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,329 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    If these robo trees could actually pull 240 tons of CO2 a year they'd collapse in a massive heap under the weight of that.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i don't know if they've misquoted that - but let's say they are correct in their assertion that these things can beat an actual tree by a factor of 250, and let's say a real street tree can absorb 10KG of CO2 a year. so we're looking at 25 tons, rather than 240 tons, so it's still 70KG a day or thereabouts. and with trees, you know where the carbon is being captured, in the wood and soil. with moss, what are they doing with the moss so that the carbon doesn't re-enter the atmosphere? are they taking it away and placing it in storage?



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,984 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Are these not more about removing PM's and NOX, the pollution that comes out of Diesel cars and can cause cancer, etc. rather then carbon capture.

    While of course reducing green house gases is incredibly important, we also have to remember that there are also other, different environmental and health issues.

    Of course, removing cars from our cities (and promoting EV's) are the best solution to this. Things like green walls, moss walls, just trees and vegetation in general can all help reduce pollution, improve air quality, reduce noise and make our cities generally more pleasant.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,329 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    But they are ineffective as demonstrated by their removal from a number of European cities in recent years where they were installed. And even if they "might" be slightly effective in the immediate area around them, overall they are pretty useless. Removing the source of the particulate pollution is what should be done (enforcing the bus lane would be a great start) rather than installing these expensive gimmicks. Oh and plant actual real life trees that aside from the obvious benefits are good for urban wildlife and don't need to be plugged in or need water pumped to them.


    Post edited by namloc1980 on


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i see a lone tweet claiming that the judge has ruled against the woman who tried taking an injunction against the pedestrianisation of new street in malahide. no actual source cited, though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭densification


    Fingal CC have said the woman lost her case against them.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i think she lost her injunction intended to revert the road back to previous use, pending a decision on the legality, but the judge is still going to examine the legality issue.



  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    The judicial review case is still ongoing. She wanted the pedestrianisation to be reversed while the judicial review was happening. That was refused today.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,395 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Glad she lost, but her injunction wasn't entirely without merit (without morals, perhaps). She wanted the injunction to happen now, as she feared that by the time the courts got around to deciding her case, the pedestrianisation would be over.

    Such a selfish way of looking at the world.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,261 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    If the pedestrianisation is over by the time the judicial review is done then the scheme was clearly temporary and therefore, based on the rational of the Sandymount cast, not all that likely to succeed anyway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    I was on Patrick's Street in Cork today, pretty much all private vehicles. I knew the "ban" wasn't working, but didn't realise it was quite as bad as it is.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,329 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Article in the IT today. Absolutely embarrassing drivel:

    The installation of a cyclepath in Ballsbridge, Dublin, which would result in the relocation of six parking spaces on Merrion Road, would “destroy” the village and have a “devastating effect” on businesses, a local traders’ group has said.

    Traders with businesses operating on a stretch from numbers 2 to 18 Merrion Road claim the “imposition of unworkable cycle lanes to the detriment of drivers” is “ageist”





  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    ballsbridge facing catastrophe over the threat of (checks notes) a loss of six parking spaces.




  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,288 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    It is not even a loss of the spaces but merely a relocation of them!



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    whoops, should have refreshed before posting.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,329 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Who knew that the net loss of one car space would lead to the total destruction of an area of Dublin city!

    Joking aside but this article demonstrates where decades of car centric policies have got us - that people use language like "destroyed" and "devastation" in the context of the loss of one car space. Zero perspective meaning it is very hard to have a reasonable and logical debate with these people



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,753 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    What's funny is that ballsbridge was destroyed decades ago by the 6 lane motorway going through the heart of it. But a cycle lane ruins everything. Some people can't be let out on their own, no logical capacity.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,477 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Ageist is pretty f*cking patronising too. My 71 year old dad and 67 year old mam cycle regularly in Dublin, around the suburbs. This mentality is sickening from these people. And they'll be listened to too, I believe it was on Pat Kenny today, no doubt he'll be on their side.

    We need legislation in place to stop this kind of nonsense, the city is absolutely choked with cars, my mate gave me a lift from Artane to Malahide yesterday and I just couldn't believe the amount of traffic and cars everywhere, I'm never on those roads, nearly all of them seemed to be SUVs too, this was at 4pm. You can bloody taste fumes when you're cycling or walking around parts of Dublin. Something's gotta give.



  • Registered Users Posts: 746 ✭✭✭Heraclius


    If they can prevent any changes for another 10 years then they'll have electric SUVs and will claim they are "doing their bit" for the environment too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭densification


    Disappointing to see 'pro-cycling' councillors supporting the businesses. I don't think either of them have ever supported a new cycle lane in their constituency. So much for the '15 minute city' 😑

    Also annoyed that the South East area councillors didn't challenge them before agreeing the motion.

    Why do small businesses get so much airtime on transport plans? Most of them are clueless and think all their customers drive everywhere.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,329 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    It's because they themselves drive everywhere so they assume everyone else drives everywhere also.

    Seeing councillors supporting this nonsense is disappointing but not in the least bit surprising.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    would be an interesting poll for dublin (or non-dublin) based boardsies; how often do you use on-street parking in dublin city centre?

    i think the only times i've ever parked in ballsbridge would be in a car park in the RDS. though i guess ballsbridge is not the city centre if you use the canals to define it.

    i have parked multiple times outside a friend's house in sandymount though.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Disappointing to see 'pro-cycling' councillors supporting the businesses.

    are you referring to dermot lacey?



  • Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭densification




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i think the only person who thinks lacey is pro-cycling is lacey himself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,329 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Clare County Council removing pedestrianisation in Ennis that was brought in last year. Unbelievable. 🙄





  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    And their reasoning?



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,288 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,095 ✭✭✭buffalo


    From reading about it, the pedestrianisation was a temporary Covid measure. Now that the pandemic's effects are easing, the temporary measure is ending.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Ha. And everyone will be late for work every day because traffic will be at a standstill. Someone not thinking this through!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation




  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,288 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle




  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    "You know that project we ran? It was very successful. So it's over. Enjoy!'

    I hope this was done on purpose to drum up support.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,126 ✭✭✭Ben D Bus


    I'm clinging to the hope offered by the word 'scheduled' in that post. Looks very much like they're open to the idea of keeping it. But they need to tread carefully to avoid ending up in court.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,095 ✭✭✭buffalo


    Similar to Ennis, I'd like to think they're sticking rigidly to the 'temporary' aspect of the Covid measures, and will reinstate it as permanent in some form later. Otherwise, as you allude, court cases such as the Strand Road trial (which was blocked because the judge didn't think a successful trial would be temporary) will continue to happen.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I agree. I think that this is necessary process, or else it will compromise the long term plan as well as future trials. I still believe that this change to our towns and cities is an inevitability, and is just a matter of time. It has to be done right, so as to take the wind out of the naysayers sails



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,984 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    So when are they going to start leaving SUV's drive up and down Grafton Street again? Given that the pedestrianisation of Graffton Street was also done on a temporary, trial basis too!

    Complete and utter madness!



  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,100 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    What is the point of trialling something if when it is shown to be a huge success you don't continue with it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,126 ✭✭✭Ben D Bus


    You complete the trial and revert to prior arrangements while you review the data. If the review is positive you re-implement on a permanent basis. Otherwise you end up in court for pretending your implementation was temporary.



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  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,100 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    Over 300,000 people made use of it in the past 11 weeks. The trial has proven to be a huge success. There is no need revert back.



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