Herd immunity is not going to happen

It wasnt the plan, until we started mandating vaccine passports and vaccinating u18s and u16s - they are at such minimal risk from covid, the only reason to want to vaccinate them is for herd immunity (which wont ever be achieved)

Now it is vax everyone with a pulse even those who don't die from it, but eventually we will get round to those at risk and are dying elsewhere later on.

Doesn't the fact that vaccinated people can still get and transmit the virus mean that herd immunity can still be reached, it will just take a lot longer? Everybody will likely get it at most stage and will therefore get immunity. In theory at least, herd immunity is still possible and it is transmitability after vaccination which makes that so, despite people trying to present that as a negative.

The big unknown is variants and how vaccines stands up to them but even then the vaccine is likely to mean people have a less severe illness which reduces the need for lockdowns, thereby aiding the spread and movement towards immunity to the variant.

My apologies 🙈 I must be mixing you up with someone else. I'll delete the comment.

Surely the problem with trying to reach herd immunity through infection is, especially with travel opening up, is that you allow new variants to emerge which may reduce the effectiveness of Vaccines. Of course Vaccines will then be updated to deal with such variants, but to truly see the end of this, i think we need to see good vaccinations rates in poorer countries.

It is possible the virus might never truly go away, that it might mutate to something milder, but the very old and vunerable could be at risk in local outbreaks, but the virus won't be able to spread rapidly and risk hospitals being overwhelmed.

You are missing the point. Any kind of natural immunity from exposure to covid/vaccine is not enough to prevent repeat infections & spread of covid.

The virus can still spread, albeit at a slower rate, through an immunized population. Its looking like this may be the case, which if true means no "herd immunity" is possible.

The vaccines are almost as effective (which was at a very very high starting point) against the variants as they were against the original strain, even the vaccine makers aren't sure if a "delta specific" vaccine will be needed. Why? The spike protein is pretty consistent among all variants and the vaccine targets the spike protein, the mutation would have to be fairly radical and beneficial for any vaccine escape to occur. Most of the (relatively small) efficacy and effectiveness drop is down to the higher transmissibility of the variant which, without vaccine, has a very high R0 compared to the original (relatively transmissible) virus.

You posted a headline figure about Israel to try to imply vaccines are ineffective, with no further context or attempt to dig a little deeper. The data from Israel shows overwhelmingly that vaccines are very effective and that serious outcomes due to Covid are almost all now in the unvaccinated or in the the vaccinated aged 80+. If you want to be taken seriously then maybe do a bit more with your posts.

Saying that vaccinated people can still get infected therefore no point vaccinating is like saying you can still get pregnant despite being on the pill, therefore you might as well go out riding as many guys as you can and not bother with birth control.

I wasn't advocating for trying to reach herd immunity through infection, but that may end up being the case. Some on this thread (and elsewhere) are hung up on vaccinated people still getting infected with and transmitting the virus. My point was that herd immunity via vaccination is largely irrelevant. If it can't happen then herd immunity can still be achieved via infection, although with most of the negative consequences significantly reduced due to vaccination. Vaccinated people getting and transmitting the virus makes this possible, I don't see how it is the negative some make it out to be.

No, the situation is more like putting a speed limiter in all cars at 100kmh because some people die when driving at 120kmh.

For most of the population driving at 120 is totally safe, but because theres a miniscule risk of someone going out of control and crashing into another car, we have to impose drastic measures on everyone.

Is it yourself that keeps posting this on various threads? I think the whole natural immunity being better than vaccines has been debunked multiple times at this stage. Natural immunity will vary depending on viral load and the severity with which it effects the individual, the vaccines will give a fairly consistent immunity (for people with a comparable immune system).

You sure about that ?

That is the worst analogy I've ever heard!

The other thing is that you assume vaccinated people cant carry the disease which is false - they can and do, data exists to back it up. Vaccinated case clusters are a real thing.

And just to back it up, here's a US study (among many) showing recovered individuals being twice as likely to be re-infected as vaccinated individuals:

Reduced Risk of Reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 After COVID-19 Vaccination — Kentucky, May–June 2021 | MMWR (cdc.gov)

You're of course leaving out that vaccinated individuals both clear the viral load faster and are up to 80% less transmissible than unvaccinated individuals?

Given that the vaccinated group at the moment will be older and have a weaker immune system on average, this is pretty impressive.

This is data out of context. This is all people hospitalized.

If about 10% of their population is unvaccinated vs 90% vaccinated.

This means there are vastly more of that 10% being hospitalized than there are in rest the 90% combined.

Yet again - I'm not an anti-vaxxer. it seems like they live rent-free in your head though.

And someone driving 120kmh down a residential street and running over children while everyone shrugs? That was your analogy

No source for your screenshot I see. 🙃

Here is a Doctor working there. You think he is making it up ?

I posted this previously, but there is 8 studies here for you to peruse (these are pre-delta which is yet to have a published study but preliminaries are similar):