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Dublin Bay South By-Election

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    #872
    rdwight
    Registered Users Posts: 527 ✭✭✭rdwight


    foxyladyxx wrote: »
    This 100%. I had a canvasser from the Green Party at my door. I told her that in no corcumstances would I vote for a party in Government after the way MM was allowed to present the erroneous model to the cabinet with no backlash from any TD's in the three Government parties.

    I told her that I would vote Labour as a protest vote. ( I can see many voting Sinn Fein however) . .She asked for my second vote. My answer was ''no''.

    My neighbour is equally clued in and I heard him ranting at the male canvasser about how the unelected NPHET were given so much power ....he is a cantankerous old man at the best of times,

    Bacik will romp it at this stage. the handling of NPHET will gift her the win.

    That's one way of describing the two of ye.


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    #873
    rdwight
    Registered Users Posts: 527 ✭✭✭rdwight


    iwasliedto wrote: »
    I think all you need to do is look at Labour's record in power to find a reason not to vote for them. They have enabled FF and FG to run the country for too long, they have been found out and will find it difficult to rise in the polls with a lot of their traditional voters having deserted them.

    Alan Kelly called to my door looking for the vote and I asked him how would he expect me to vote for Labour with their most recent record in government. He did not even try to justify it or defend it, says it all really. A vote for Ivan of the bicycle is a vote somewhere down the line to enable FG or FF to implement their right-wing policies.

    Who among the parties have a good record in government? Sinn Fein probably made fewest mistakes when in government in NI. Mainly because they abdicated responsibility by absenting themselves for 3 years.


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    #874
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,062 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    Labour now firmly a party of the middle class. Ivana is a lovely person who has championed very worthwhile causes, but I can't see her and many of the Labour Party these days connecting with working class voters.

    Labour are now New Labour. They might as well fold up and merge with other parties.


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    #875
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    Labour now firmly a party of the middle class. Ivana is a lovely person who has championed very worthwhile causes, but I can't see her and many of the Labour Party these days connecting with working class voters.

    Labour are now New Labour. They might as well fold up and merge with other parties.


    Labour have been New Labour since the 70s when joined by the likes of Justin Keating, David Thornley, John Horgan, Ruairi Quinn, Mary Robinson etc. etc. Although Dick Spring came from a traditional Labour background (his father was a TD), he went to private school and Trinity College and played rugby for Ireland - so not exactly a working class background.

    Just for the record, I think Ruairi Quinn was a particularly good Minister for Finance and we were unfortunate that FF followed that Government and blew it all.


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    #876
    Bobtheman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,645 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    The situation with covid is in flux. A lot of the EU might follow us. Yes we all have had enough but nobody wants blood on their hands.
    The government is not following NPHET advice fully
    See the antigen testing issue.
    The Labour Party have not attacked NPHET so I fail to see how voting for them is a protest vote?!
    In the end the stupidity of the electorate never ceases to amaze me. Some of those here who hate bacik voted to keep the seanad alive because they foolishly believed it would be reformed.
    By doing so they kept bacik career alive.
    The senead :departure lounge for the Dail or rest home for political hacks.


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    #877
    Bobtheman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,645 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    jm08 wrote: »
    Labour have been New Labour since the 70s when joined by the likes of Justin Keating, David Thornley, John Horgan, Ruairi Quinn, Mary Robinson etc. etc. Although Dick Spring came from a traditional Labour background (his father was a TD), he went to private school and Trinity College and played rugby for Ireland - so not exactly a working class background.

    Just for the record, I think Ruairi Quinn was a particularly good Minister for Finance and we were unfortunate that FF followed that Government and blew it all.

    I agree with you that he was a good minister for finance. It was a good government but the anti FF vote never forgave Labour for joining with FG. Also FF knows how thick the electorate can be and won on a tax reduction banner. Even though Quinn had broadened the tax bands which was the same thing.
    If they had been re elected then I think we would not have has as much madness. Labour tended to be sensible on housing. However I still think we would have a housing boom and crash though not as bad. FG are more sensible than FF but they never said in 2002-7 that we needed to stop the boom. Rein it in. Call for cutbacks to stop over heating the economy.


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    #878
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,455 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    iwasliedto wrote: »
    I think all you need to do is look at Labour's record in power to find a reason not to vote for them. They have enabled FF and FG to run the country for too long, they have been found out and will find it difficult to rise in the polls with a lot of their traditional voters having deserted them.

    Alan Kelly called to my door looking for the vote and I asked him how would he expect me to vote for Labour with their most recent record in government. He did not even try to justify it or defend it, says it all really. A vote for Ivan of the bicycle is a vote somewhere down the line to enable FG or FF to implement their right-wing policies.

    Yeah, why didn't they stay out of Government and take the easy route of complaining about everything and doing nothing. It's mad how we blame the minority parties for all the failings of Governments.


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    #879
    Darc19
    Registered Users Posts: 3,817 ✭✭✭Darc19


    rdwight wrote: »
    Who among the parties have a good record in government? Sinn Fein probably made fewest mistakes when in government in NI. Mainly because they abdicated responsibility by absenting themselves for 3 years.

    SF are not in government in Northern Ireland. It is governed from Westminster and they won't take any part in that.

    There is "local government" in Northern and they share that with the DUP. Sort of like a county council with a bit more power.

    No control over taxes, no control over health, no control over social welfare, very little control on policing and justice.


    I suspect that FF and FG would not have a big issue with Bacik winning this as it will give impetus to the Labour party and frankly, if they start building some support again, it will most likely be taken from sf


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    #880
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,836 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Someone called Anetoo is suing RTÉ for being excluded from DBS TV debates.

    Nope, never heard of him either.


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    #881
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,820 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Darc19 wrote: »
    SF are not in government in Northern Ireland. It is governed from Westminster and they won't take any part in that.

    There is "local government" in Northern and they share that with the DUP. Sort of like a county council with a bit more power.

    No control over taxes, no control over health, no control over social welfare, very little control on policing and justice.


    I suspect that FF and FG would not have a big issue with Bacik winning this as it will give impetus to the Labour party and frankly, if they start building some support again, it will most likely be taken from sf

    No. There is a devolved government in Northern Ireland and Wales and Scotland.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #882
    Darc19
    Registered Users Posts: 3,817 ✭✭✭Darc19


    Annasopra wrote: »
    No. There is a devolved government in Northern Ireland and Wales and Scotland.

    It's government by name only, but because sf and DUP can agree on virtually nothing, most real management is from London.


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    #883
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,062 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    jm08 wrote: »
    Labour have been New Labour since the 70s when joined by the likes of Justin Keating, David Thornley, John Horgan, Ruairi Quinn, Mary Robinson etc. etc. Although Dick Spring came from a traditional Labour background (his father was a TD), he went to private school and Trinity College and played rugby for Ireland - so not exactly a working class background.

    Just for the record, I think Ruairi Quinn was a particularly good Minister for Finance and we were unfortunate that FF followed that Government and blew it all.

    In one of Quinn's budgets, he raised the old age pension by 1 pound.

    They made third level education free to all, which had to be rowed back on over the years.

    Ending the fees only benefitted the middle class.


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    #884
    zimmermania
    Registered Users Posts: 4,686 ✭✭✭zimmermania


    Bobtheman wrote: »
    The situation with covid is in flux. A lot of the EU might follow us. Yes we all have had enough but nobody wants blood on their hands.
    The government is not following NPHET advice fully
    See the antigen testing issue.
    The Labour Party have not attacked NPHET so I fail to see how voting for them is a protest vote?!
    In the end the stupidity of the electorate never ceases to amaze me. Some of those here who hate bacik voted to keep the seanad alive because they foolishly believed it would be reformed.
    By doing so they kept bacik career alive.
    The senead :departure lounge for the Dail or rest home for political hacks.

    The electorate are a diverse group of people who sometimes take a perverse delight in opposing government policy just for the sake of it.

    The vote to retain the Senate was because a majority of those who voted could not vote to abolish the Senate because the government was seen to support its abolition.

    Amost everyone agrees the Senate is a waste of money and yet we decided to retain it, its a jokeshop.


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    #885
    Good loser
    Registered Users Posts: 3,181 ✭✭✭Good loser


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Geoghegan will still win.

    I think he's 8/11 with Paddy Power now. Was 11/10.


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    #886
    Jizique
    Registered Users Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Jizique


    Darc19 wrote: »
    It's government by name only, but because sf and DUP can agree on virtually nothing, most real management is from London.

    Bit like here with NPHET calling the shots


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    #887
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    In one of Quinn's budgets, he raised the old age pension by 1 pound.


    He changed the annual deficit of about 3% to an annual surplus of about 2%. Unemployment dropped from about 15% to 10%, which was unbelievable progress at the time.

    They made third level education free to all, which had to be rowed back on over the years.

    Ending the fees only benefitted the middle class.


    It was rowed back heavily because of the crash. I don't understand how ending fees only benefitted the middle class. Surely everyone benefitted from no fees?


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    #888
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Darc19 wrote: »
    SF are not in government in Northern Ireland. It is governed from Westminster and they won't take any part in that.

    There is "local government" in Northern and they share that with the DUP. Sort of like a county council with a bit more power.

    No control over taxes, no control over health, no control over social welfare, very little control on policing and justice.


    I suspect that FF and FG would not have a big issue with Bacik winning this as it will give impetus to the Labour party and frankly, if they start building some support again, it will most likely be taken from sf


    It will be a terrible blow to FG if they don't retain the seat. It would mean that they have no FG TD in one of the traditional heart lands of FG and with two seats in the 2016 election (E. Murphy & K. O'Connell).


    I must say, I have never seen anything like the canvassing being done at the moment. For the General Election, Labour were the only ones who called to my door - I've had them all this time ringing the doorbell rather than just shoving something in the letterbox - and some of them twice (SF x 2, Greens x 2, Aontu x 1, Labour x 1, FG x 1, FF x 1, SD x 1).


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    #889
    iwasliedto
    Registered Users Posts: 83 ✭✭iwasliedto


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Yeah, why didn't they stay out of Government and take the easy route of complaining about everything and doing nothing. It's mad how we blame the minority parties for all the failings of Governments.

    If they had stayed out of government for one or two parliaments then they would have forced FF and FG together and then we could have a Labour-led government. They were only the minority party because they could not resist the chance to be a minority party, they did not have the vision or discipline to force FF/FG together. You would think they would have learned this at some stage but they just kept facilitating the larger parties until the electorate had had enough.


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    #890
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,062 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    jm08 wrote: »
    He changed the annual deficit of about 3% to an annual surplus of about 2%. Unemployment dropped from about 15% to 10%, which was unbelievable progress at the time.





    It was rowed back heavily because of the crash. I don't understand how ending fees only benefitted the middle class. Surely everyone benefitted from no fees?

    The economy was beginning to change from the late 80s, the drop in unemployment was inevitable.

    The less well off already got 3rd level education free through grants, as they still do now.

    Labour could have targeted primary education but chose to give free fees to middle class people. It led to more middle class people sending their children to private secondary schools as they had more money in their pockets.

    Every time Labour has been in government in Ireland, the gap between rich and poor has widened.

    I just don't see them as a party of the Left or a party of the working man. Ivana reflects this change and the public know it.


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    #891
    Tidyboii
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭Tidyboii


    Vote No.1 Bill Badbody D.B.S!!


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    #892
    KevRossi
    Registered Users Posts: 4,396 ✭✭✭KevRossi


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    The economy was beginning to change from the late 80s, the drop in unemployment was inevitable.

    The less well off already got 3rd level education free through grants, as they still do now.

    Labour could have targeted primary education but chose to give free fees to middle class people. It led to more middle class people sending their children to private secondary schools as they had more money in their pockets.

    Every time Labour has been in government in Ireland, the gap between rich and poor has widened.

    I just don't see them as a party of the Left or a party of the working man. Ivana reflects this change and the public know it.

    You've got dates and facts wrong here. The employment situation was as dire in 1991 when I finished college as at any other time. Most of us emigrated, incidentally almost all of us came back to Ireland within 15 years.

    Free 3rd level education benefitted all. It may have freed up money for a small number of people to send kids to private school but it also massively increased the number of people going into further education. the results of that have had a very positive impact on the economy. It can just as easily be argued that higher disposable incomes led to people sending kids to private schools.

    I could just as easily argue that every time Labour were in power, the overwhelming majority of people in this country (in fact all people) have come out financially better off. The gap between the poorest and the super rich has widened in all developed countries, Ireland is no different there.


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    #893
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,455 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Arra sure lookit, it could happen to any of us. I'm forever losing track of the properties my trust fund is buying and selling.


    https://www.ontheditch.com/james-geoghegan-trust-fund-carlisle-trust/


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    #894
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,215 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    jm08 wrote: »
    He changed the annual deficit of about 3% to an annual surplus of about 2%. Unemployment dropped from about 15% to 10%, which was unbelievable progress at the time.





    It was rowed back heavily because of the crash. I don't understand how ending fees only benefitted the middle class. Surely everyone benefitted from no fees?

    On the latter point, the question I would pose is whether a non-universal benefit should be made available without regard for need? As was the csse in the UK, free university fees resulted in those being the cheapest years of education for many (those who were privately educated). It is questionable whether that is the best allocation of resources. (And I saw this as someone who did not go to univesity at 17 solely because of the cost.)


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    #895
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,215 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    jm08 wrote: »
    It will be a terrible blow to FG if they don't retain the seat. It would mean that they have no FG TD in one of the traditional heart lands of FG and with two seats in the 2016 election (E. Murphy & K. O'Connell).


    I must say, I have never seen anything like the canvassing being done at the moment. For the General Election, Labour were the only ones who called to my door - I've had them all this time ringing the doorbell rather than just shoving something in the letterbox - and some of them twice (SF x 2, Greens x 2, Aontu x 1, Labour x 1, FG x 1, FF x 1, SD x 1).

    I run them all without discrimination.


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    #896
    KevRossi
    Registered Users Posts: 4,396 ✭✭✭KevRossi


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Arra sure lookit, it could happen to any of us. I'm forever losing track of the properties my trust fund is buying and selling.


    https://www.ontheditch.com/james-geoghegan-trust-fund-carlisle-trust/

    Bad timing releasing that today of they want to damage him. He has the weekend to evade and bluster his way out of it. If the story had been released early next week it would be a different matter, less time to get out of it.


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    #897
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,455 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    iwasliedto wrote: »
    If they had stayed out of government for one or two parliaments then they would have forced FF and FG together and then we could have a Labour-led government. They were only the minority party because they could not resist the chance to be a minority party, they did not have the vision or discipline to force FF/FG together. You would think they would have learned this at some stage but they just kept facilitating the larger parties until the electorate had had enough.

    Nice theory, but you're a little naive if you think this works in practice. It's a bit tricky to look the voter in the eye and say 'Give me your number one vote, so I can stay OUT of Government for two or three terms. I'll won't get any of my important policies implement while your kids are in school needing supports and your parents are expiring fast needing health services. But stick me, and everything will be great in 15-20 years.'.

    It's a hard sell, to all but the most extreme purist lefties, and they're already committed to supporting the PBP to not be in Government.

    It will be interesting to see what happens to SF support in ten years time, after they've had a stint at Government and realised that strangely enough, they don't have all the easy answers.


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    #898
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,215 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    KevRossi wrote: »
    Bad timing releasing that today of they want to damage him. He has the weekend to evade and bluster his way out of it. If the story had been released early next week it would be a different matter, less time to get out of it.

    The Ansbacher/Carlisle Trust connection is a bit tenuous. It would be better to juxtapose his inheritance with the claims of voice of a homeless generation. Not entirely surprising that he would have such potential for inheritances in real life. It's the mendacity in claiming otherwise that marks him out as a fool.


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    #899
    athlone573
    Registered Users Posts: 726 ✭✭✭athlone573


    Marcusm wrote: »
    The Ansbacher/Carlisle Trust connection is a bit tenuous. It would be better to juxtapose his inheritance with the claims of voice of a homeless generation. Not entirely surprising that he would have such potential for inheritances in real life. It's the mendacity in claiming otherwise that marks him out as a fool.

    So his granda was wealthy and left him a house?

    Par for the course with FG.


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    #900
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,455 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    athlone573 wrote: »
    So his granda was wealthy and left him a house?

    Par for the course with FG.

    So do all FGers have trust funds?


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    #901
    kalych
    Registered Users Posts: 344 ✭✭kalych


    athlone573 wrote: »
    So his granda was wealthy and left him a house?

    Par for the course with FG.

    I guess that's not the problem, it's his insistence on being the 'voice of the generation locked out of the housing market' in government that people take offense with. Do as I say and not as I do type if stuff.


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