Why Does it Cost More to Build a House in Dublin than Other Counties?

Ace2007 · 23-05-2021 01:34PM

Mav11 wrote: »

Also I would dispute the notion that you could buy a home for any price you want in Ireland and a quick browse of Daft would support that.

Very quick search on myhome.ie and found these.

Here's a 3 bedroom for 100k
https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/20-the-belfry-cock-hill-cavan-h12-v6w2/4260139

Here's a 4 bedroom for 150k
https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/ref-938-no-7-glor-na-farraige-knightstown-valentia-island-kerry/4500216

Mav11 · 23-05-2021 01:34PM

Dav010 wrote: »

No it doesn’t. You do not have to build a house, and you do not have to go with the highest quote. If all quotes are similar, that is the market rate, not gouging.

Does a home not fall into that category because a) it is something that is not needed or b) one is not forced to pay a high price?

Mav11 · 23-05-2021 01:36PM

Ace2007 wrote: »

Very quick search on myhome.ie and found these.

Here's a 3 bedroom for 100k
https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/20-the-belfry-cock-hill-cavan-h12-v6w2/4260139

Here's a 4 bedroom for 150k
https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/ref-938-no-7-glor-na-farraige-knightstown-valentia-island-kerry/4500216

I want one for 10k or even 5k. You did say you could get one for any price you want in Ireland?

23-05-2021 01:46PM

Mav11 wrote: »

Does a home not fall into that category because a) it is something that is not needed or b) one is not forced to pay a high price?

In relation to need, do you have a choice on whether to build or not?

In relation to price, market rate is not gouging, it is market rate. If you are forced to pay about market rate, it is gouging, are you being forced to pay above market rate?

YFlyer · 23-05-2021 01:55PM

Mav11 wrote: »

I want one for 10k or even 5k. You did say you could get one for any price you want in Ireland?

Ridiculous.

Mav11 · 23-05-2021 01:56PM

Dav010 wrote: »

In relation to need, do you have a choice on whether to build or not?

In relation to price, market rate is not gouging, it is market rate. If you are forced to pay about market rate, it is gouging, are you being forced to pay above market rate?

Because it is the market rate does not imply lack of gouging, particularly if the suppliers are making the market. Economics 101 will tell you that the market is far from perfect.

I hear a lot of narrative describing the cost of upcoming hotel accommodation as gouging. Even if it is the market rate is it not gouging, particularly as they know that people need a break after 15 months of lockdown.

Mav11 · 23-05-2021 01:57PM

YFlyer wrote: »

Ridiculous.

No more vacuous than the original statement making the claim.

23-05-2021 02:00PM

Mav11 wrote: »

Because it is the market rate does not imply lack of gouging, particularly if the suppliers are making the market. Economics 101 will tell you that the market is far from perfect.

I hear a lot of narrative describing the cost of upcoming hotel accommodation as gouging. Is it not gouging, particularly as they know that people need a break after 15 months of lockdown.

It rather goes against the accepted understanding of gouging, if you are paying market rate.

Mav11 · 23-05-2021 02:02PM

Dav010 wrote: »

It rather goes against the accepted understanding of gouging, if you are paying market rate.

I wouldn't agree, but we can agree to disagree.

Ace2007 · 23-05-2021 02:28PM

Mav11 wrote: »

No more vacuous than the original statement making the claim.

No because you were just going to say any price under what i stated to win the point. How many people in Ireland are looking to buy a house for 5k/10k?

I gave you an example of places for sale that anybody in the country who is looking to buy should be able to afford. It might not be in the location they want, but that doesn't mean there is a supply issue.

YFlyer · 23-05-2021 02:37PM

Mav11 wrote: »

No more vacuous than the original statement making the claim.

Even the material cost be more expensive.

Bass Reeves · 23-05-2021 03:23PM

Ace2007 wrote: »

Very quick search on myhome.ie and found these.

Here's a 3 bedroom for 100k
https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/20-the-belfry-cock-hill-cavan-h12-v6w2/4260139

Here's a 4 bedroom for 150k
https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/ref-938-no-7-glor-na-farraige-knightstown-valentia-island-kerry/4500216

Both those houses are at about 50% of building cost.

FromADistance · 23-05-2021 04:26PM

Elsewhere in this forum, it has already been intimated that property developers are already over pricing construction costs by c30-40% and playing the poor mouth. I have no doubt there's an element of pricing gouging in Dublin because the market can absorb the extra cost and the demand is there as most builders have a 6-12 month waiting list. A builder in Leitrim probably would not have the same demand or waiting list and could start a job straight away.

A very basic example that I can give about the cost of jobs in Dublin was when I looked to extend a patio by approx 12sq m... 2 day job max. One chap came, stood in the Garden and quoted 3k... (ex patio slabs). A real 'fu*k' off price but some eejit would pay it. I got the job done by a guy outside Dublin... all done for c1.3k which included hand digging the patio, the hire of a skip, skip bag and all materials. A friend of mine years ago need to fix the roof on his house... 1 week job max... one chap quoted him 10k & 2 weeks... another arrived to price the job without a ladder... the chap he got in took 4 days and charged 4k.

I can only imagine what it would be like to price up the cost of a house... you'd need your head well screwed on.

Himnydownunder · 23-05-2021 05:47PM

bubblypop wrote: »

You have just proved my point.
Dublin adds extra just by being mentioned. It doesn't mean anything is actually more expensive.
I live in Dublin, but I do not get paid more then people in the same job as me living in the country.

Yes teachers, guards and nurses all get paid the same, regardless of whether their in Leitrim or Dublin.

Cyrus · 23-05-2021 05:50PM

Himnydownunder wrote: »

Yes teachers, guards and nurses all get paid the same, regardless of whether their in Leitrim or Dublin.

And other professions get paid more.

am_zarathustra · 23-05-2021 06:02PM

Himnydownunder wrote: »

Yes teachers, guards and nurses all get paid the same, regardless of whether their in Leitrim or Dublin.

A separate but important issue. Cost if living certainly varies but I'd also say you have more chance of promotion given how many do a few years and go home down the country due to the cost of housing and childcare

Swindled · 23-05-2021 06:29PM

Mammy and Daddy need to stop telling their kids to go to college, to become ungrateful brainwashed disgruntled unemployed and oversupplied graduates, and start getting them to go into apprenticeships.

That's were the real money is and will be for the next generation.

23-05-2021 06:37PM

Id says it a few things, a bit of because they can get away with in Dublin, Labour supply in construction in Dublin is an issue. If you live in Castleblaney and are completing work on a site in Dublin even if the money is good versus working locally you would need huge money to cover the commute, parking is often an issue in Dublin let alone other hassles.

People are illogical as well they want anyone living in social housing who may well be the ones working the low paid job to feck off out of Dublin and leave it them to live in then give out when the cost of unskilled semi-skilled or skilled labour is high in Dublin or that for example, a house cleaner can get 15 euro an hour in Dublin.

Melanchthon · 23-05-2021 06:53PM

Question I have which doesn't seem to have been properly addressed is that.
Yes wages are higher for Dublin construction work but by what percent.
I would guess it's around 20% higher, with a semi-skilled labourer being on something like 700 a week in Dublin and outside Dublin 560 a week (which actually sounds too low).

20% is lower than the price difference disregarding land costs between Dublin and rural.

In terms of material costs, unless the work is right in the city center I don't see why it should be higher, yes rent for yards is higher but they also have higher turnover, in terms of materials transport Dublin port would be where a lot of materials from overseas arrive.

Basically 20% difference I would understand, difference is higher though.

Marius34 · 23-05-2021 07:09PM

Melanchthon wrote: »

Question I have which doesn't seem to have been properly addressed is that.
Yes wages are higher for Dublin construction work but by what percent.
I would guess it's around 20% higher, with a semi-skilled labourer being on something like 700 a week in Dublin and outside Dublin 560 a week (which actually sounds too low).

20% is lower than the price difference disregarding land costs between Dublin and rural.

In terms of material costs, unless the work is right in the city center I don't see why it should be higher, yes rent for yards is higher but they also have higher turnover, in terms of materials transport Dublin port would be where a lot of materials from overseas arrive.

Basically 20% difference I would understand, difference is higher though.

Nor I agree, or disagree here, but how do you know that difference is higher than 20%? What you think is the difference?

Bass Reeves · 23-05-2021 08:01PM

Melanchthon wrote: »

Question I have which doesn't seem to have been properly addressed is that.
Yes wages are higher for Dublin construction work but by what percent.
I would guess it's around 20% higher, with a semi-skilled labourer being on something like 700 a week in Dublin and outside Dublin 560 a week (which actually sounds too low).

20% is lower than the price difference disregarding land costs between Dublin and rural.

In terms of material costs, unless the work is right in the city center I don't see why it should be higher, yes rent for yards is higher but they also have higher turnover, in terms of materials transport Dublin port would be where a lot of materials from overseas arrive.

Basically 20% difference I would understand, difference is higher though.

I say 30-50%+ minimum and maybe more. 20% would hardly cover the extra transport costs if you were travelling 50+ miles/ day each way. It will cost you 50-70 in extra fuel costs alone. 25-30k extra Kilometres on a car or van add in extra service and maintenance.

Add in extra hours spend travelling. 10 hours a week minimum and that is not including Saturday.

I worked on the road in a technical area for a while. Company provided a van and all fuel. For a good while I made money on an overnight allowance. Then the company decided that they would pull the overnight allowance as it knew we travelled home or stayed over night worked on. I refused to travel and moved jobs as I could get the same money working with no travelling

Swindled · 28-06-2021 05:55PM

Melanchthon wrote: »

Question I have which doesn't seem to have been properly addressed is that.
Yes wages are higher for Dublin construction work but by what percent.
I would guess it's around 20% higher, with a semi-skilled labourer being on something like 700 a week in Dublin and outside Dublin 560 a week (which actually sounds too low).

20% is lower than the price difference disregarding land costs between Dublin and rural.

In terms of material costs, unless the work is right in the city center I don't see why it should be higher, yes rent for yards is higher but they also have higher turnover, in terms of materials transport Dublin port would be where a lot of materials from overseas arrive.

Basically 20% difference I would understand, difference is higher though.

It's called supply and demand. In a free country businesses will charge whatever the local market is willing to pay. That has a knock on effect on everybody along the supply chain. No shortage of the number of people in Dublin willing to pay the high prices. Demand is higher than supply. If it was not, prices would come down. Prices don't reflect what something is intrinsically worth, prices reflect what people are willing to pay. In an ideal world, all wages would be high, and all prices low so we can all live like kings, but it's not an ideal world. Dublin is totally oversubscribed, and Mammy and Daddy are sending everyone off to learn to be be malcontent, oversupplied, unemployable graduates, when what we need is more young Irish people going into trades, self employment etc, and supply and demand spread more evenly throughout modern Ireland.

am_zarathustra · 28-06-2021 06:25PM

Swindled wrote: »

It's called supply and demand. In a free country businesses will charge whatever the local market is willing to pay. That has a knock on effect on everybody along the supply chain. No shortage of the number of people in Dublin willing to pay the high prices. Demand is higher than supply. If it was not, prices would come down. Prices don't reflect what something is intrinsically worth, prices reflect what people are willing to pay. In an ideal world, all wages would be high, and all prices low so we can all live like kings, but it's not an ideal world. Dublin is totally oversubscribed, and Mammy and Daddy are sending everyone off to learn to be be malcontent, oversupplied, unemployable graduates, when what we need is more young Irish people going into trades, self employment etc, and supply and demand spread more evenly throughout modern Ireland.

We have a chronic shortage of graduates in many areas in Ireland. It's not a competition between the two. I don't know a single graduate my age unemployed. Lifetime earnings of a graduate is 400000 more than a none graduate. I would agree that more people should be encouraged into trades but skill levels and interest also matter. Hopefully a more structured system like Solas will help, I've seen a lot of young lads burned when work dried up. There are also people I know with office jobs who would kill themselves by accident if they were electricians.

Also parents sacrifice to send their kids to college, I very much enjoyed college and love the job I was able to get as a result of my level of education, there is no reason to be disparaging about it. I also know people who went back to education later and worked damn hard to do it. Others I knew in school are happy running their trades and small companies. All valid life choices.

The lack of woodwork and metalwork/engineering rooms in many schools is also an issue, funding for these was not forthcoming from the DOE and many have been shutdown as a result. They are damned expensive to run.

I'd be very interested in a breakdown of %'s entering trades by county or even council district.

Swindled · 30-06-2021 11:43AM

am_zarathustra wrote: »

We have a chronic shortage of graduates in many areas in Ireland. It's not a competition between the two. I don't know a single graduate my age unemployed. Lifetime earnings of a graduate is 400000 more than a none graduate. I would agree that more people should be encouraged into trades but skill levels and interest also matter. Hopefully a more structured system like Solas will help, I've seen a lot of young lads burned when work dried up. There are also people I know with office jobs who would kill themselves by accident if they were electricians.

Also parents sacrifice to send their kids to college, I very much enjoyed college and love the job I was able to get as a result of my level of education, there is no reason to be disparaging about it. I also know people who went back to education later and worked damn hard to do it. Others I knew in school are happy running their trades and small companies. All valid life choices.

The lack of woodwork and metalwork/engineering rooms in many schools is also an issue, funding for these was not forthcoming from the DOE and many have been shutdown as a result. They are damned expensive to run.

I'd be very interested in a breakdown of %'s entering trades by county or even council district.

The fact remains is we have a surplus of graduates in many areas, and a shortage of decent tradespeople. Nowadays practically no young people, who would actually make good professional tradespeople, and make a lot more money doing it, are properly encouraged and supported to consider it by schools or parents. As for thinking woodwork and metalwork/engineering rooms are "expensive" to run, nothing as penny wise and pound-foolish as everyone in the state paying huge rates for scarce trades. Most of the remaining good one are in now in their 50's, they will be largely gone sooner than people realise. I don't think waiting until the problems reach crisis point is a good idea.

Claw Hammer · 30-06-2021 02:49PM

Melanchthon wrote: »

Question I have which doesn't seem to have been properly addressed is that.
Yes wages are higher for Dublin construction work but by what percent.
I would guess it's around 20% higher, with a semi-skilled labourer being on something like 700 a week in Dublin and outside Dublin 560 a week (which actually sounds too low).

20% is lower than the price difference disregarding land costs between Dublin and rural.

In terms of material costs, unless the work is right in the city center I don't see why it should be higher, yes rent for yards is higher but they also have higher turnover, in terms of materials transport Dublin port would be where a lot of materials from overseas arrive.

Basically 20% difference I would understand, difference is higher though.

Wages are one element of the building cost. This varies even around Dublin. It is more expensive to build in the city centre because tradesmen are reluctant to work there for the same day as they would get in the suburbs near where they live.
Subcontractors in the city will charge more than the same subcontractors in country areas.
Another huge factor is the traffic in Dublin. It can add enormously to the Labour element of a job having materials delivered where access is poor. It is often difficult to get trucks in and out of sites and often Labour has to be expended stepping onto the road the guide in delivery vehicles.
Another factor is security. Sometimes sites and Dublin have to have security against theft, unlike rural areas where blocks can be left on a site. Where the site is tight, as is often the case, there can be a massive amount of labour simply passing materials through the site, unlike the situation in the country where there is plenty of land around the building.

C14N · 30-06-2021 03:36PM

FromADistance wrote: »

Elsewhere in this forum, it has already been intimated that property developers are already over pricing construction costs by c30-40% and playing the poor mouth. I have no doubt there's an element of pricing gouging in Dublin because the market can absorb the extra cost and the demand is there as most builders have a 6-12 month waiting list. A builder in Leitrim probably would not have the same demand or waiting list and could start a job straight away.

A very basic example that I can give about the cost of jobs in Dublin was when I looked to extend a patio by approx 12sq m... 2 day job max. One chap came, stood in the Garden and quoted 3k... (ex patio slabs). A real 'fu*k' off price but some eejit would pay it. I got the job done by a guy outside Dublin... all done for c1.3k which included hand digging the patio, the hire of a skip, skip bag and all materials. A friend of mine years ago need to fix the roof on his house... 1 week job max... one chap quoted him 10k & 2 weeks... another arrived to price the job without a ladder... the chap he got in took 4 days and charged 4k.

I can only imagine what it would be like to price up the cost of a house... you'd need your head well screwed on.

To some extent, this might be down to information asymmetry too. People living in urban places tend to be less likely to have done their own handiwork on their house and have less of an idea of what things actually cost, in addition to a bit more money to pay for it. This is just anecdotal, but rural life has more of a culture of "I'll try to fix it myself" and urban is more of a "I'll get someone to fix that for me". Someone who grew up in the countryside and works in a trade or agriculture is more likely to have an estimate in their head of the costs of materials and the time needed to do a job than someone from the city who never had to.

Swindled wrote: »

The fact remains is we have a surplus of graduates in many areas, and a shortage of decent tradespeople. Nowadays practically no young people, who would actually make good professional tradespeople, and make a lot more money doing it, are properly encouraged and supported to consider it by schools or parents. As for thinking woodwork and metalwork/engineering rooms are "expensive" to run, nothing as penny wise and pound-foolish as everyone in the state paying huge rates for scarce trades. Most of the remaining good one are in now in their 50's, they will be largely gone sooner than people realise. I don't think waiting until the problems reach crisis point is a good idea.

This is actually a pretty good point. When choosing careers at secondary level, trades are usually still treated (at least in my experience) as the domain of kids who aren't great academically in school, but they're very important jobs and actually good careers. I went into engineering myself after school so I don't really have any regrets, but I feel like if I had been more inclined toward something in arts and humanities I'd end up with worse career prospects than if I had gone into a trade like carpentry, or plumbing, or electricity. At the same time though, I feel like there would have been more social pressure not to go in that direction anyway, because those jobs are more "working class", and it's probably something experienced even more so by young girls.

30-06-2021 04:52PM

Swindled wrote: »

The fact remains is we have a surplus of graduates in many areas, and a shortage of decent tradespeople. Nowadays practically no young people, who would actually make good professional tradespeople, and make a lot more money doing it, are properly encouraged and supported to consider it by schools or parents. As for thinking woodwork and metalwork/engineering rooms are "expensive" to run, nothing as penny wise and pound-foolish as everyone in the state paying huge rates for scarce trades. Most of the remaining good one are in now in their 50's, they will be largely gone sooner than people realise. I don't think waiting until the problems reach crisis point is a good idea.

That only true to an extent, my sister sent one of her boys to a school that had woodwork and metal workroom rooms as well as Ag science because that is were his interests are, he is going to do an apprenticeship when he leaves school the others went to college.

There is more to it than that though he already has a part-time job helping out, has made a lot of contacts and money despite not yet being 18, he will get a very good apprenticeship because his parents will make sure he has a driving license and good leaving cert, and they have the connections and network to steer him in the right direction.

Swindled · 30-06-2021 05:15PM

mariaalice wrote: »

That only true to an extent, my sister sent one of her boys to a school that had woodwork and metal workroom rooms as well as Ag science because that is were his interests are, he is going to do an apprenticeship when he leaves school the others went to college.

There is more to it than that though he already has a part-time job helping out, has made a lot of contacts and money despite not yet being 18, he will get a very good apprenticeship because his parents will make sure he has a driving license and good leaving cert, and they have the connections and network to steer him in the right direction.

That's great, best of luck to him, we need more smart intelligent young people going into the trades, he will have a great career ahead, will be in extreme demand in just a few years, and will now as a result make more money in life than most of his generation will, but we need a lots more of this if we ever want to tackle the housing crisis, extremely costly home maintenance work, and lack of trades available. He's the exception these days, not the norm.

0lddog · 30-06-2021 05:18PM

bubblypop wrote: »

If I own a site in Dublin, outright.
And I own a site in Leitrim, outright.
Can I get a house built for the same price on either site? If not, why not?

Take yourself off to the construction forum and ask about percolation in Leitrim for a start

am_zarathustra · 30-06-2021 08:07PM

mariaalice wrote: »

That only true to an extent, my sister sent one of her boys to a school that had woodwork and metal workroom rooms as well as Ag science because that is were his interests are, he is going to do an apprenticeship when he leaves school the others went to college.

There is more to it than that though he already has a part-time job helping out, has made a lot of contacts and money despite not yet being 18, he will get a very good apprenticeship because his parents will make sure he has a driving license and good leaving cert, and they have the connections and network to steer him in the right direction.

It's great he had the option and a clear path. I've worked in 7/8 schools in the Dublin Area and only one was properly provisioned. I think if more kids had the option of doing these subjects there would be a larger uptake of trades, especially around more academically minded kids.

But I'd agree with the sentiment that more kids should be encouraged into trades, if only because a lot of people actually enjoy working in that way. Almost no girls schools have metalwork or woodwork, excluding half the population. You are not going to rock up at 18, having never been in a woodwork room and decide that's for you even though it's a fantastic and very creative job that you can travel with.

Provision in education would be a good place to start fixing these issues. Every student should try either woodwork or metalwork to get a feel for them. We spend a fortune pushing STEM, no harm throwing a few quid into having decent plumbers, carpenters and electricians. Kids can't decide they want a career they've never had an exposure too. Most parents aren't pushing their kids one way or the other, the kids are just limited in their own understanding ........and don't get me started on the painfully middle class guidance counselors

Why Does it Cost More to Build a House in Dublin than Other Counties?

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