leniency of judicial system

rodge123 · 28-06-2021 12:37pm #1

Just Speechless.
Second manslaughter conviction and sure that will be just another 13 years.
What on earth is wrong with our judicial system…the man should be locked away for life, plain and simple.

https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2021/0628/1231777-manslaughter-sentence/

Sandor Clegane · 28-06-2021 2:15pm

And he's only 33, plenty of time left to kill a 3rd or even a 4th person.

Icemancometh · 28-06-2021 2:17pm

If memory serves, the buda bar killing was particularly gruesome.

Gatling · 28-06-2021 2:19pm

I know a case where another chap with murder and manslaughter convictions done less than 9 years in total and came out of mount joy one a Wednesday and was working on a door in templebar by the Friday ,
No way in hell should you have a murder and manslaughter convictions and be walking the streets after a few years

walshb · 28-06-2021 2:32pm

rodge123 wrote: »

Just Speechless.
Second manslaughter conviction and sure that will be just another 13 years.
What on earth is wrong with our judicial system…the man should be locked away for life, plain and simple.

https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2021/0628/1231777-manslaughter-sentence/

Yes

This person is a killer.....and will likely keep killing until he cannot. He will be out in 8-10 years aged 42-43....wit loads years and time to keep killing

Our justice system is disgusting, and the people implementing it sicken me.

It's right across the board....

Violent recidivist people need to be permanently removed from society....

walshb · 28-06-2021 2:34pm

Icemancometh wrote: »

If memory serves, the buda bar killing was particularly gruesome.

Sure was

Used a swiss army knife to punch a man repeatedly around the head and face...

suicide_circus · 28-06-2021 2:55pm

How was that not murder?

walshb · 28-06-2021 3:15pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

How was that not murder?

It's Ireland!!!!

wes · 28-06-2021 3:18pm

I thinking a case like this, is where life without parole is appropriate.

Mike Murdock · 28-06-2021 3:22pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

How was that not murder?

Under the influence of drugs/drink/hearing voices...something like that.
Diminished responsibility, I would imagine.

Sandor Clegane · 28-06-2021 6:19pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/man-who-tried-to-kill-girl-10-fails-to-overturn-life-sentence-1.1987713

This was a case that happened years ago in my town, he never actually killed anyone and still got a life sentence, so they can do it when they want to.

I can't understand how this guy wasn't given a life sentence, he's obviously a major threat, he's killed two people and he'll have more than enough time to kill more due to the ridiculous sentences he's been given...I can't understand it.

walshb · 28-06-2021 7:01pm

Sandor Clegane wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/man-who-tried-to-kill-girl-10-fails-to-overturn-life-sentence-1.1987713

This was a case that happened years ago in my town, he never actually killed anyone and still got a life sentence, so they can do it when they want to.

I can't understand how this guy wasn't given a life sentence, he's obviously a major threat, he's killed two people and he'll have more than enough time to kill more due to the ridiculous sentences he's been given...I can't understand it.

Yes.

A proper sentence that..

Attempted murder should be automatic life as well..

28-06-2021 7:11pm

"The judge said the probation report showed that Fortune had a capacity for serious violence, showed limited insight and accepts limited responsibility for what he has done and poses a high risk of reoffending.

She sentenced him to 13 years in prison, with the final year suspended."

That'll teach him.
This time.

walshb · 28-06-2021 7:51pm

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

"The judge said the probation report showed that Fortune had a capacity for serious violence, showed limited insight and accepts limited responsibility for what he has done and poses a high risk of reoffending.

She sentenced him to 13 years in prison, with the final year suspended."

That'll teach him.
This time.

This absolutely sickens me..

rodge123 · 28-06-2021 9:30pm

walshb wrote: »

This absolutely sickens me..

Frankly, unless the judges hands are tied for some unknown reason to us…then how on earth can this judge be considered fit for their job, they should be sacked from this position (Don’t have a clue how this happens or who they report to)

archfi · 28-06-2021 9:37pm

rodge123 wrote: »

Just Speechless.
Second manslaughter conviction and sure that will be just another 13 years.
What on earth is wrong with our judicial system…the man should be locked away for life, plain and simple.

https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2021/0628/1231777-manslaughter-sentence/

Read that and just shook my head.

angel eyes 2012 · 28-06-2021 9:42pm

rodge123 wrote: »

Frankly, unless the judges hands are tied for some unknown reason to us…then how on earth can this judge be considered fit for their job, they should be sacked from this position (Don’t have a clue how this happens or who they report to)

Currently judges can only be sacked by way of a resolution passed by both houses of Oireachtas.

Brian? · 28-06-2021 9:51pm

rodge123 wrote: »

Frankly, unless the judges hands are tied for some unknown reason to us…then how on earth can this judge be considered fit for their job, they should be sacked from this position (Don’t have a clue how this happens or who they report to)

They are tied by legal precedent

Sandor Clegane · 28-06-2021 10:00pm

Brian? wrote: »

They are tied by legal precedent

But if they can give a life sentence to a guy for attempted murder (I linked the article about the case that happened in my town a few posts earlier) then surely they can give a life sentence to a guy whos killed twice?

Are they looing for the hat-rick?

Brian? · 28-06-2021 10:04pm

Sandor Clegane wrote: »

But if they can give a life sentence to a guy for attempted murder (I linked the article about the case that happened in my town a few posts earlier) then surely they can give a life sentence to a guy whos killed twice?

Are they looing for the hat-rick?

I’ve no idea.

Judges sentence based on case law. Worst case scenario for a judge is that their sentence is appealed and changed. So they aren’t actually purposely lenient. They are handing down the most severe sentence they can that they know won’t be changed on appeal.

Brian? · 28-06-2021 10:06pm

angel eyes 2012 wrote: »

Currently judges can only be sacked by way of a resolution passed by both houses of Oireachtas.

It should be extremely difficult to sack or punish a judge. A independent judiciary is a corner stone of a properly functioning democracy.

It’s up to the legislature to change the law so different sentences are handed out. Not the judiciary

28-06-2021 10:06pm

Sandor Clegane wrote: »

But if they can give a life sentence to a guy for attempted murder (I linked the article about the case that happened in my town a few posts earlier) then surely they can give a life sentence to a guy whos killed twice?

Are they looing for the hat-rick?

They're held back by precedent. Just like the ones that set the precedent were. Until they created their own precedent that is. Or just went against precedent and their decision isn't used as precedent.

28-06-2021 10:09pm

If he was indeed hallucinating etc. then surely he's not guilty by reason of insanity?

Just looking at the previous ahem, manslaughter, ahem, this thing carried out and it was 14 wounds in 2 separate sessions. But that's not murder apparently.

Brian? · 28-06-2021 10:12pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If he was indeed hallucinating etc. then surely he's not guilty by reason of insanity?

Just looking at the previous ahem, manslaughter, ahem, this thing carried out and it was 14 wounds in 2 separate sessions. But that's not murder apparently.

Insanity is a clinical diagnosis. He had diminished responsibility, due to the drugs, which is why it ended up as man slaughter I assume.

28-06-2021 10:17pm

Brian? wrote: »

Insanity is a clinical diagnosis. He had diminished responsibility, due to the drugs, which is why it ended up as man slaughter I assume.

Always amazes me that something self-inflicted (particularly when it's a pattern, but I'm sure it's the first time this killer had a bad buzz) is considered a mitigating circumstance.

Brian? · 28-06-2021 10:24pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Always amazes me that something self-inflicted (particularly when it's a pattern, but I'm sure it's the first time this killer had a bad buzz) is considered a mitigating circumstance.

I Know. I don’t fully get it either.

But again, the judges don’t make the law. They just interpret it.

Sandor Clegane · 28-06-2021 10:26pm

The judicial system needs a major overhaul, no judge worth anything could be happy with the current state of things.

If I passed that sentence for a double murderer I don't think id ever sleep well again.

archfi · 28-06-2021 10:36pm

Maybe he'll kill more than one in his next go of freedom in 12 years time and the 12 years handed down for each of those victims will run concurrently, then after another 12 years...

Potential-Monke · 28-06-2021 10:57pm

It's the manslaughter that's getting this one. Murder, he wouldn't be out, but with the reduced manslaughter charge he gets less. Which, imo, is still not enough. Murder is actually very hard to prove, because you need to show that it was planned. In this case, it didn't seem planned, so no murder. Didn't read the other one, but if he didn't plan on killing someone then it's not murder. That's the catch, and solicitors are well aware of this.

But I agree that the whole judicial system needs an overhaul. The first port should be to build another BIG prison, so that will allow judges to sentence longer and more often. Then, we need to change the legislation to increase the mandatory sentences for a lot of offences, especially those against persons. Finally, we need a proper process to ensure judges are held to account and not treated with impunity. All of which will never happen because the people who make these decisions are not on the side of us, the general public. They're on the side of money and favours, neither of which the general public will be able to compete with.

Brian? · 28-06-2021 11:07pm

Potential-Monke wrote: »

It's the manslaughter that's getting this one. Murder, he wouldn't be out, but with the reduced manslaughter charge he gets less. Which, imo, is still not enough. Murder is actually very hard to prove, because you need to show that it was planned. In this case, it didn't seem planned, so no murder. Didn't read the other one, but if he didn't plan on killing someone then it's not murder. That's the catch, and solicitors are well aware of this.

That’s a common misconception. It doesn’t need to be planned to be murder. You just need to intend harm at that moment and not be impaired of defending yourself with reasonable force. Premeditation is irrelevant.

slavetothegrind · 28-06-2021 11:22pm

Mandatory sentencing is a misnomer as it does not happen, remember the 10 year mandatory sentence for possession of an illegal firearm?

We also need to apply remission at the end of a sentence, once the prisoner earns it and not at the start.

It's more about managing costs than dealing with criminals.

And i cannot but believe the politically appointed judges are part of it.

Potential-Monke · 29-06-2021 12:26am

Brian? wrote: »

That’s a common misconception. It doesn’t need to be planned to be murder. You just need to intend harm at that moment and not be impaired of defending yourself with reasonable force. Premeditation is irrelevant.

It's kinda the same. You need to show intent, prior to the actual act. Whether that intent is 5 minutes or 5 years, it doesn't matter.

Sorry, re-reading my post it does come across like you need a Mission Impossible type plan in order to commit murder. I should have used intent instead of plan.

Edit: From the 1964 act, but there could be an ammendment I'm not willing to try and find:

4.—(1) Where a person kills another unlawfully the killing shall not be murder unless the accused person intended to kill, or cause serious injury to, some person, whether the person actually killed or not.

29-06-2021 2:19am

Ah sure he probably didn't intend to kill or seriously harm the guy he stabbed 14 times either.

walshb · 29-06-2021 11:35am

Brian? wrote: »

I’ve no idea.

Judges sentence based on case law. Worst case scenario for a judge is that their sentence is appealed and changed. So they aren’t actually purposely lenient. They are handing down the most severe sentence they can that they know won’t be changed on appeal.

I don't buy it at all here

Let there be appeals.....this monster is a proven killer....

This judge could have handed a far lengthier sentence and chose to hand down a disgusting sentence to this monster, after she admits he will very likely re-offend....and re-offend isn't stealing some bar a chocolate; it is butchering people...

Manslaughter can see a life sentence....this woman chose to allow this monster freed after 8-10 years if remission is taken into account.

So she absolutely was purposely lenient......clear as day she was when you consider what this animal did, and her comments about him.

Brian? · 29-06-2021 1:34pm

walshb wrote: »

I don't buy it at all here

Let there be appeals.....this monster is a proven killer....

This judge could have handed a far lengthier sentence and chose to hand down a disgusting sentence to this monster, after she admits he will very likely re-offend....and re-offend isn't stealing some bar a chocolate; it is butchering people...

Manslaughter can see a life sentence....this woman chose to allow this monster freed after 8-10 years if remission is taken into account.

So she absolutely was purposely lenient......clear as day she was when you consider what this animal did, and her comments about him.

You know both sides can appeal? If the DPP feels the sentence is too lenient they can appeal it and there's a chance it'll be increased on appeal.

That's the line the judge has to walk, neither too lenient or too harsh to be appealed. Without the emotional language of calling defendants "animals" etc. . Judges are supposed to be unemotional and impartial. Then they get pilloried for doing it.

I find that whenever these discussions come up there is a serious lack of understanding of how the justice system works, or doesn't work. People calling for judges heads etc. when it's not the judges who are the problem. They are working within the confines of a system.

It's the system that needs to be reformed.

rob316 · 29-06-2021 2:32pm

It would be something atleast if he actually served 12 years behind bars, reality is he will be out on licence in 6 years time to kill again.

Do you know in Ireland you can be paroled after 7 years of a life sentence. 7 years!

walshb · 29-06-2021 2:43pm

Brian? wrote: »

You know both sides can appeal? If the DPP feels the sentence is too lenient they can appeal it and there's a chance it'll be increased on appeal.

That's the line the judge has to walk, neither too lenient or too harsh to be appealed. Without the emotional language of calling defendants "animals" etc. . Judges are supposed to be unemotional and impartial. Then they get pilloried for doing it.

I find that whenever these discussions come up there is a serious lack of understanding of how the justice system works, or doesn't work. People calling for judges heads etc. when it's not the judges who are the problem. They are working within the confines of a system.

It's the system that needs to be reformed.

And this 'system' allows this judge to impose a far harsher sentence than 12 fooking years. Out in maybe 8

This judge/person chose 12 years....the system did not.

The judge here in this case is the issue She imposed this disgusting sentence on a killer....

Judges are part of the system.

It's not always a system reform.....sometimes a judge needs reforming.

Her disgusting sentence never took into account the safety of society, which it should have. She cocked up here. Simple as

A life sentence was there...and that is D only sentence this animal deserves. You don't have to be a judge to know this.

She has imposed a sentence that will see this man free to kill again. She is the problem here. Not this animal.

She had the perfect chance to impose the proper sentence, and nobody with an ounce of decency would have criticized a life sentence here.

Brian? · 29-06-2021 3:16pm

walshb wrote: »

And this 'system' allows this judge to impose a far harsher sentence than 12 fooking years. Out in maybe 8

This judge/person chose 12 years....the system did not.

The judge here in this case is the issue She imposed this disgusting sentence on a killer....

Judges are part of the system.

It's not always a system reform.....sometimes a judge needs reforming.

Her disgusting sentence never took into account the safety of society, which it should have. She cocked up here. Simple as

A life sentence was there...and that is D only sentence this animal deserves. You don't have to be a judge to know this.

She has imposed a sentence that will see this man free to kill again. She is the problem here. Not this animal.

She had the perfect chance to impose the proper sentence, and nobody with an ounce of decency would have criticized a life sentence here.

You're completely ignoring what I said. She didn't have the freedom you think she does. I explained why.

walshb · 29-06-2021 5:49pm

Brian? wrote: »

You're completely ignoring what I said. She didn't have the freedom you think she does. I explained why.

Could she or could she not have given a longer sentence, even a life sentence?

Yes/no?

Whether or not it is appealed is not relevant.......could she have given a longer sentence?

You are making out that judges are always completely bound by a system, and that they cannot use flexibility and discretion etc.

She chose this sentence, not some system.

Brian? · 29-06-2021 5:50pm

walshb wrote: »

Could she or could she not have given a longer sentence, even a life sentence?

Yes/no?

Whether or not it is appealed is not relevant.......could she have given a longer sentence?

What would be the point of giving a longer sentence if she knew it would be reduced on appeal. That’s a waste of taxpayer money and court time.

Technically she could have. Then that would have been appealed and the sentence reduced. Meaning the state has to pay for the whole thing. Net result is the same amount of time in prison.

Do you want judges to sentence based on feelings or facts?

walshb · 29-06-2021 5:57pm

Brian? wrote: »

What would be the point of giving a longer sentence if she knew it would be reduced on appeal. That’s a waste of taxpayer money and court time.

Ok, so she could have given one....

Let anyone and everyone appeal...who cares.......I would have next to no issue with my taxes being sent caging violent scum like this. That is life. People are entitled to appeal Appeals happen all the time....

Stop the BS about worrying about taxpayers money in this case...

You are now kind of stating, almost as fact, that the sentence gets reduced on appeal. It may or may not, but again, so what...

Sentence these people to proper sentences....in this case, life was what she should have given here

Did you hear what she said about this man?

Judges are humans, and they make cocks ups like everyone else

This judge had her chance to impose a proper sentence here, and to ensure the safety of society from this man. She dropped the ball big time

walshb · 29-06-2021 5:58pm

Brian? wrote: »

Do you want judges to sentence based on feelings or facts?

I want our justice system to put away killers.....for life in some cases
This case.......absolute clear cut life....

spring lane jack · 29-06-2021 6:04pm

walshb wrote: »

Yes.

A proper sentence that..

Attempted murder should be automatic life as well..

I knew that freak personally and I know the victims dad, a very decent respectable and hard working man, yet the poor girl had to put up with awful abuse from the rest of the scum in that horrible town. She was subjected to bullying and was constantly being called a rat.

Brian? · 29-06-2021 6:07pm

walshb wrote: »

Ok, so she could have given one....

Let anyone and everyone appeal...who cares.......I would have next to no issue with my taxes being sent caging violent scum like this. That is life. People are entitled to appeal Appeals happen all the time....

Stop the BS about worrying about taxpayers money in this case...

You are now kind of stating, almost as fact, that the sentence gets reduced on appeal. It may or may not, but again, so what...

Sentence these people to proper sentences....in this case, life was what she should have given here

Did you hear what she said about this man?

Judges are humans, and they make cocks ups like everyone else

This judge had her chance to impose a proper sentence here, and to ensure the safety of society from this man. She dropped the ball big time

The judge did her duty impartially. If the sentence is too lenient the DPP should appeal it. Why don’t you get on to your TD to ask why the DPP aren’t doing their job here?

He was given a proper sentence. It just wasn’t as tough as you wanted it to be. Yes, I am stating as fact that if a sentence is handed out that isn’t in line with previous sentencing it will be changed. That’s the case if it’s too tough or too easy.

How do you think judges decide sentences? Gut feeling?

Brian? · 29-06-2021 6:09pm

walshb wrote: »

I want our justice system to put away killers.....for life in some cases
This case.......absolute clear cut life....

I don’t disagree

I’m telling you how the system works now though. Call your TD, join a political party, do something If you think it should be different. Giving out about judges will change nothing

leniency of judicial system

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