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leniency of judicial system

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 837 ✭✭✭ Sandor Clegane


    And he's only 33, plenty of time left to kill a 3rd or even a 4th person.


  • Registered Users Posts: 810 ✭✭✭ Icemancometh


    If memory serves, the buda bar killing was particularly gruesome.


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,264 ✭✭✭✭ Gatling


    I know a case where another chap with murder and manslaughter convictions done less than 9 years in total and came out of mount joy one a Wednesday and was working on a door in templebar by the Friday ,
    No way in hell should you have a murder and manslaughter convictions and be walking the streets after a few years


  • Registered Users Posts: 48,680 ✭✭✭✭ walshb


    rodge123 wrote: »
    Just Speechless.
    Second manslaughter conviction and sure that will be just another 13 years.
    What on earth is wrong with our judicial system…the man should be locked away for life, plain and simple.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2021/0628/1231777-manslaughter-sentence/

    Yes

    This person is a killer.....and will likely keep killing until he cannot. He will be out in 8-10 years aged 42-43....wit loads years and time to keep killing

    Our justice system is disgusting, and the people implementing it sicken me.

    It's right across the board....

    Violent recidivist people need to be permanently removed from society....


  • Registered Users Posts: 48,680 ✭✭✭✭ walshb


    If memory serves, the buda bar killing was particularly gruesome.

    Sure was

    Used a swiss army knife to punch a man repeatedly around the head and face...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭ suicide_circus


    How was that not murder?


  • Registered Users Posts: 48,680 ✭✭✭✭ walshb


    How was that not murder?

    It's Ireland!!!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,725 ✭✭✭✭ wes


    I thinking a case like this, is where life without parole is appropriate.


  • Registered Users Posts: 815 ✭✭✭ Mike Murdock


    How was that not murder?

    Under the influence of drugs/drink/hearing voices...something like that.
    Diminished responsibility, I would imagine.


  • Registered Users Posts: 837 ✭✭✭ Sandor Clegane


    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/man-who-tried-to-kill-girl-10-fails-to-overturn-life-sentence-1.1987713

    This was a case that happened years ago in my town, he never actually killed anyone and still got a life sentence, so they can do it when they want to.

    I can't understand how this guy wasn't given a life sentence, he's obviously a major threat, he's killed two people and he'll have more than enough time to kill more due to the ridiculous sentences he's been given...I can't understand it.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 48,680 ✭✭✭✭ walshb


    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/man-who-tried-to-kill-girl-10-fails-to-overturn-life-sentence-1.1987713

    This was a case that happened years ago in my town, he never actually killed anyone and still got a life sentence, so they can do it when they want to.

    I can't understand how this guy wasn't given a life sentence, he's obviously a major threat, he's killed two people and he'll have more than enough time to kill more due to the ridiculous sentences he's been given...I can't understand it.

    Yes.

    A proper sentence that..

    Attempted murder should be automatic life as well..


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    "The judge said the probation report showed that Fortune had a capacity for serious violence, showed limited insight and accepts limited responsibility for what he has done and poses a high risk of reoffending.

    She sentenced him to 13 years in prison, with the final year suspended."

    That'll teach him.
    This time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 48,680 ✭✭✭✭ walshb


    "The judge said the probation report showed that Fortune had a capacity for serious violence, showed limited insight and accepts limited responsibility for what he has done and poses a high risk of reoffending.

    She sentenced him to 13 years in prison, with the final year suspended."

    That'll teach him.
    This time.

    This absolutely sickens me..


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭ rodge123


    walshb wrote: »
    This absolutely sickens me..

    Frankly, unless the judges hands are tied for some unknown reason to us…then how on earth can this judge be considered fit for their job, they should be sacked from this position (Don’t have a clue how this happens or who they report to)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,252 ✭✭✭ archfi


    rodge123 wrote: »
    Just Speechless.
    Second manslaughter conviction and sure that will be just another 13 years.
    What on earth is wrong with our judicial system…the man should be locked away for life, plain and simple.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2021/0628/1231777-manslaughter-sentence/

    Read that and just shook my head.

    'In our rush to destigmatize the exception, we’ve stigmatized the rule.'

    --Benjamin Boyce



  • Registered Users Posts: 811 ✭✭✭ angel eyes 2012


    rodge123 wrote: »
    Frankly, unless the judges hands are tied for some unknown reason to us…then how on earth can this judge be considered fit for their job, they should be sacked from this position (Don’t have a clue how this happens or who they report to)

    Currently judges can only be sacked by way of a resolution passed by both houses of Oireachtas.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 18,604 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Brian?


    rodge123 wrote: »
    Frankly, unless the judges hands are tied for some unknown reason to us…then how on earth can this judge be considered fit for their job, they should be sacked from this position (Don’t have a clue how this happens or who they report to)

    They are tied by legal precedent

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Registered Users Posts: 837 ✭✭✭ Sandor Clegane


    Brian? wrote: »
    They are tied by legal precedent

    But if they can give a life sentence to a guy for attempted murder (I linked the article about the case that happened in my town a few posts earlier) then surely they can give a life sentence to a guy whos killed twice?

    Are they looing for the hat-rick?


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 18,604 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Brian?


    But if they can give a life sentence to a guy for attempted murder (I linked the article about the case that happened in my town a few posts earlier) then surely they can give a life sentence to a guy whos killed twice?

    Are they looing for the hat-rick?

    I’ve no idea.


    Judges sentence based on case law. Worst case scenario for a judge is that their sentence is appealed and changed. So they aren’t actually purposely lenient. They are handing down the most severe sentence they can that they know won’t be changed on appeal.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 18,604 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Brian?


    Currently judges can only be sacked by way of a resolution passed by both houses of Oireachtas.

    It should be extremely difficult to sack or punish a judge. A independent judiciary is a corner stone of a properly functioning democracy.

    It’s up to the legislature to change the law so different sentences are handed out. Not the judiciary

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,922 ✭✭✭✭ Buttonftw


    But if they can give a life sentence to a guy for attempted murder (I linked the article about the case that happened in my town a few posts earlier) then surely they can give a life sentence to a guy whos killed twice?

    Are they looing for the hat-rick?

    They're held back by precedent. Just like the ones that set the precedent were. Until they created their own precedent that is. Or just went against precedent and their decision isn't used as precedent.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,922 ✭✭✭✭ Buttonftw


    If he was indeed hallucinating etc. then surely he's not guilty by reason of insanity?

    Just looking at the previous ahem, manslaughter, ahem, this thing carried out and it was 14 wounds in 2 separate sessions. But that's not murder apparently.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 18,604 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Brian?


    Buttonftw wrote: »
    If he was indeed hallucinating etc. then surely he's not guilty by reason of insanity?

    Just looking at the previous ahem, manslaughter, ahem, this thing carried out and it was 14 wounds in 2 separate sessions. But that's not murder apparently.

    Insanity is a clinical diagnosis. He had diminished responsibility, due to the drugs, which is why it ended up as man slaughter I assume.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Registered Users Posts: 25,922 ✭✭✭✭ Buttonftw


    Brian? wrote: »
    Insanity is a clinical diagnosis. He had diminished responsibility, due to the drugs, which is why it ended up as man slaughter I assume.

    Always amazes me that something self-inflicted (particularly when it's a pattern, but I'm sure it's the first time this killer had a bad buzz) is considered a mitigating circumstance.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 18,604 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Brian?


    Buttonftw wrote: »
    Always amazes me that something self-inflicted (particularly when it's a pattern, but I'm sure it's the first time this killer had a bad buzz) is considered a mitigating circumstance.

    I Know. I don’t fully get it either.

    But again, the judges don’t make the law. They just interpret it.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Registered Users Posts: 837 ✭✭✭ Sandor Clegane


    The judicial system needs a major overhaul, no judge worth anything could be happy with the current state of things.

    If I passed that sentence for a double murderer I don't think id ever sleep well again.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,252 ✭✭✭ archfi


    Maybe he'll kill more than one in his next go of freedom in 12 years time and the 12 years handed down for each of those victims will run concurrently, then after another 12 years...

    'In our rush to destigmatize the exception, we’ve stigmatized the rule.'

    --Benjamin Boyce



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,977 ✭✭✭✭ Potential-Monke


    It's the manslaughter that's getting this one. Murder, he wouldn't be out, but with the reduced manslaughter charge he gets less. Which, imo, is still not enough. Murder is actually very hard to prove, because you need to show that it was planned. In this case, it didn't seem planned, so no murder. Didn't read the other one, but if he didn't plan on killing someone then it's not murder. That's the catch, and solicitors are well aware of this.

    But I agree that the whole judicial system needs an overhaul. The first port should be to build another BIG prison, so that will allow judges to sentence longer and more often. Then, we need to change the legislation to increase the mandatory sentences for a lot of offences, especially those against persons. Finally, we need a proper process to ensure judges are held to account and not treated with impunity. All of which will never happen because the people who make these decisions are not on the side of us, the general public. They're on the side of money and favours, neither of which the general public will be able to compete with.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 18,604 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Brian?


    It's the manslaughter that's getting this one. Murder, he wouldn't be out, but with the reduced manslaughter charge he gets less. Which, imo, is still not enough. Murder is actually very hard to prove, because you need to show that it was planned. In this case, it didn't seem planned, so no murder. Didn't read the other one, but if he didn't plan on killing someone then it's not murder. That's the catch, and solicitors are well aware of this.

    That’s a common misconception. It doesn’t need to be planned to be murder. You just need to intend harm at that moment and not be impaired of defending yourself with reasonable force. Premeditation is irrelevant.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,789 ✭✭✭ slavetothegrind


    Mandatory sentencing is a misnomer as it does not happen, remember the 10 year mandatory sentence for possession of an illegal firearm?

    We also need to apply remission at the end of a sentence, once the prisoner earns it and not at the start.

    It's more about managing costs than dealing with criminals.

    And i cannot but believe the politically appointed judges are part of it.


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