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Derek Chauvin murder trial (George Floyd)

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    #3212
    Mic 1972
    Registered Users Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    Penn wrote: »
    It seems I did need to keep asking the question over and over, because what you're saying now is the complete opposite of your post I keep quoting.



    But fair enough, no point discussing further.


    These 2 posts of mine must have really annoyed you because you decided to answer them twice in the span of 30 minutes :confused:


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    #3213
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    Just yesterday you called BLM protesters 'racist thugs'. Would you label all catholic protesters in the north during troubles 'thugs' due to the actions of a minority who regularly turned protests violent? Some Bloody Sunday protesters were throwing rocks at police - were all those protesters also 'thugs'? I'd call those kind of statements disgusting.

    Can you please give me the context in which I said that? I am happy to clarify.

    I don't consider every person who protests against racial inequality as racist thugs. I do consider people who align themselves with BLM as racist thugs.

    Also the BLM organisation and Catholic protesters are not comparable.

    I would consider IRA sympathisers thugs.


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    #3214
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    No need to ask the same question over and over, it's been answered pretty well already pages ago
    if the crime rate is high in a specific ethnic group, then the killing by the police rate will be higher too

    Why would the crime rate being high automatically lead to killings by police being higher?
    Now, if you said that it leads to higher rates of that ethnic group in the prison population, or conviction rates for that group, well and good, there is a connection.
    But, you believe that if an ethnic group commit more crime, they will automatically be killed more by police...........seems you agree with posters here you think you're arguing with!


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    #3215
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,237 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    These 2 posts of mine must have really annoyed you because you decided to answer them twice in the span of 30 minutes :confused:

    I was just hoping you'd have the honesty and integrity to admit you were wrong and were, intentionally or accidentally, misrepresenting statistics. I thought by giving you the chance we could have a proper discussion, but you clearly decided against that.

    At least I tried.


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    #3216
    Smee_Again
    Registered Users Posts: 2,006 ✭✭✭Smee_Again


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Why would the crime rate being high automatically lead to killings by police being higher?
    Now, if you said that it leads to higher rates of that ethnic group in the prison population, or conviction rates for that group, well and good, there is a connection.
    But, you believe that if an ethnic group commit more crime, they will automatically be killed more by police...........seems you agree with posters here you think you're arguing with!

    It’s almost like mic doesn’t realise cops aren’t supposed to kill people.

    In fairness to him it appears some cops haven’t figured that out either.


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    #3217
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Why would the crime rate being high automatically lead to killings by police being higher?
    Now, if you said that it leads to higher rates of that ethnic group in the prison population, or conviction rates for that group, well and good, there is a connection.
    But, you believe that if an ethnic group commit more crime, they will automatically be killed more by police...........seems you agree with posters here you think you're arguing with!

    More interaction with the police would surely increase the likelihood of lethal force being used as well as a higher rate of conviction/arrests.

    I'm not sure I get where you are coming from


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    #3218
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I do consider people who align themselves with BLM as racist thugs.

    93% of BLM protests are peaceful. With no riots, no over-policing, nothing.

    The fact you will label all of them racist thugs is absolutely disgusting and you just throw that point out despite the facts being spelled out to you all the time.


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    #3219
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    More interaction with the police would surely increase the likelihood of lethal force being used as well as a higher rate of conviction/arrests.

    I'm not sure I get where you are coming from

    How does more interaction with police lead to more killings by police? I'm not sure how you think that makes sense?


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    #3220
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    bubblypop wrote: »
    How does more interaction with police lead to more killings by police? I'm not sure how you think that makes sense?

    If a certain demographic has more interaction with the police, then the likelihood of fatal interactions will be increased within that demographic.


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    #3221
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    If a certain demographic has more interaction with the police, then the likelihood of fatal interactions will be increased within that demographic.

    Which means you believe that police are more likely to kill someone who is in that demographic.
    In this case black.
    Just for interacting with police.


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    #3222
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Which means you believe that police are more likely to kill someone who is in that demographic.
    In this case black.
    Just for interacting with police.

    That's not even close to what I am saying.

    I'm saying that the more interactions with police, the greater the likelihood of one of those interactions will end up
    escalating into a fatal consequence.


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    #3223
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,156 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    Actually, I posted that line only once, but it got replicated countless times today alone. I must have said something right

    many people correcting you is not an indication that you said something right. Don't worry though, if you ever do get anything right I will be sure to let you know.


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    #3224
    notobtuse
    Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    I can see him getting a new trial based on attorney incompetence. There was a biased juror that any competent lawyer would never have allowed sit on the jury. But the guy is dead broke and an attorney would have to take on the case pro bono, but I don’t think it will happen because no attorney would want all that negative publicity.

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



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    #3225
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,517 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    notobtuse wrote: »
    I can see him getting a new trial based on attorney incompetence. There was a biased juror that any competent lawyer would never have allowed sit on the jury. But the guy is dead broke and an attorney would have to take on the case pro bono, but I don’t think it will happen because no attorney would want all that negative publicity.

    Did you just change your mind while typing a single post?


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    #3226
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,010 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Can you please give me the context in which I said that? I am happy to clarify.

    Do you throw out terms like that so often that you cannot keep track of what you posted yesterday?
    Deleted User wrote: »
    The gesture is linked to BLM. Regardless of what anyone else says. It's intrinsically linked because of the actions of racist thugs over the past year or so.
    I don't consider every person who protests against racial inequality as racist thugs. I do consider people who align themselves with BLM as racist thugs.

    Also the BLM organisation and Catholic protesters are not comparable.

    I would consider IRA sympathisers thugs.

    The BLM Movement and the Catholic community movement are very comparable, they even cover many of the same themes - including equality and policing.

    There were elements a both BLM protests and Catholic community protests that got involved in violence, rioted, and attacked police yet you want to paint everyone that is associated with the BLM movement with the worst part of it while trying to carve out a tiny piece of the protesters in the north that were wrongdoers.

    This is the exact hypocrisy I was talking about - it has stunk this place out for the last year.


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    #3227
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,156 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    notobtuse wrote: »
    I can see him getting a new trial based on attorney incompetence. There was a biased juror that any competent lawyer would never have allowed sit on the jury. But the guy is dead broke and an attorney would have to take on the case pro bono, but I don’t think it will happen because no attorney would want all that negative publicity.

    were all 12 jurors biased? He hasn't a hope in hell of getting a new trial because of ineffective representation of counsel. There are cases of attorneys being drunk during the trial, falling asleep during the trial, having an active mental illness during a trial and that still didn't count as ineffective assistance of counsel.


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    #3228
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,010 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    notobtuse wrote: »
    I can see him getting a new trial based on attorney incompetence. There was a biased juror that any competent lawyer would never have allowed sit on the jury. But the guy is dead broke and an attorney would have to take on the case pro bono, but I don’t think it will happen because no attorney would want all that negative publicity.

    That is just wrong, the Police Association/Union are paying all his legal fees


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    #3229
    bewareofthedog
    Registered Users Posts: 378 ✭✭bewareofthedog


    Faugheen wrote: »
    93% of BLM protests are peaceful. With no riots, no over-policing, nothing.

    The fact you will label all of them racist thugs is absolutely disgusting and you just throw that point out despite the facts being spelled out to you all the time.

    99.999999999999999% of police interactions with the public are peaceful.

    The fact that you say there's a widespread problem in dealing with minorities is absolutely disgusting.


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    #3230
    notobtuse
    Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Did you just change your mind while typing a single post?

    Nope. I can see him getting a new trial if he could get a good lawyer.

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



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    #3231
    Mic 1972
    Registered Users Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    Penn wrote: »
    I was just hoping you'd have the honesty and integrity to admit you were wrong and were, intentionally or accidentally, misrepresenting statistics. I thought by giving you the chance we could have a proper discussion, but you clearly decided against that.

    At least I tried.


    You have been answered many times over already, not just by me.
    The stats are very clear as to who are more likely to be looking for trouble.
    go looking for trouble, and you will find it


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    #3232
    notobtuse
    Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    were all 12 jurors biased? He hasn't a hope in hell of getting a new trial because of ineffective representation of counsel. There are cases of attorneys being drunk during the trial, falling asleep during the trial, having an active mental illness during a trial and that still didn't count as ineffective assistance of counsel.
    The Sixth Amendment guarantees your right to effective counsel. Look up “Ineffective assistance of counsel.”

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



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    #3233
    pjohnson
    Registered Users Posts: 23,184 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    Why would a competent lawyer take a guaranteed loss in trying to save Chauvin :pac:


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    #3234
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,010 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    bewareofthedog wrote: »
    99.999999999999999% of police interactions with the public are peaceful.

    The fact that you say there's a widespread problem in dealing with minorities is absolutely disgusting.

    So you're claiming the hundreds of thousands of black people that marched in the US over the last year are lying about their experiences and concerns?

    I'd like to see that evidence.


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    #3235
    Mic 1972
    Registered Users Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    many people correcting you is not an indication that you said something right. Don't worry though, if you ever do get anything right I will be sure to let you know.


    Many people agreeing with one another doesn't make a truth.
    No matter how many times you can dissect the stats.

    To avoid being killed by the cops is very easy, be honest and the cops won't come for you. if they do, collaborate and don't resist arrest


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    #3236
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,156 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    notobtuse wrote: »
    The Sixth Amendment guarantees your right to effective counsel. Look up “Ineffective assistance of counsel.”

    I did before I answered. They (The Supreme Court) set a very high bar for the defendant to prove their counsel was ineffective. Chauvins attorney doesn't even come close.


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    #3237
    Mic 1972
    Registered Users Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭Mic 1972


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    So you're claiming the hundreds of thousands of black people that marched in the US over the last year are lying about their experiences and concerns?

    I'd like to see that evidence.


    Did their experience with the police have anything to do with their behavior in the first place? Was there anything they could do to avoid getting in trouble with the cops?


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    #3238
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,156 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    Many people agreeing with one another doesn't make a truth.
    No matter how many times you can dissect the stats.

    To avoid being killed by the cops is very easy, be honest and the cops won't come for you. if they do, collaborate and don't resist arrest

    You were wrong with your original assertion. You didnt understand the difference between absolute stats and per capita stats. Be smart enough not to continually remind others of your error.


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    #3239
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,010 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    You have been answered many times over already, not just by me.
    The stats are very clear as to who are more likely to be looking for trouble.
    go looking for trouble, and you will find it

    Are you describing the police approach that stopped and searched non-white people at a much higher rate than white people that was later found to be unconstitutional?


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    #3240
    Billy Mays
    Registered Users Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭Billy Mays


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    Did their experience with the police have anything to do with their behavior in the first place? Was there anything they could do to avoid getting in trouble with the cops?
    They could stop driving I suppose


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    #3241
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,010 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Mic 1972 wrote: »
    Did their experience with the police have anything to do with their behavior in the first place? Was there anything they could do to avoid getting in trouble with the cops?

    Same as in the north, they saw police discriminating against their community.

    I'm sure you supported the RUC too, more interactions with the Catholic community and all that...


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