DART+ (DART Expansion)

strassenwo!f · 26-06-2021 12:38pm

Yes, of course, but I suppose what I'm suggesting here is that the main thrust of the northern DART would eventually be a partly overground and (largely) underground route between (initially) Belmayne, via Clare Hall, Coolock, Artane and Killester and the city.

An underground City-Howth Road bridge-Killester-Artane-Coolock-Clare Hall-Belmayne line would provide, I think, very efficient uptake from a willing population in that neighbourhood; the current Northern DART line is quite remote from those areas, and its catchment is restricted - to a large extent - by the sea.

There is 4-tracking to around the Clontarf Road bridge, and I am assuming that there would be 3/4-tracking to the Howth Road Bridge, whatever the plans might eventually be.

4-tracking from Howth Road to Howth Junction would be about 5.12 km, and to Clongriffin about 6.5 km.

If what I have suggested above ever comes to pass, I would envisage that there'd be about a train every 10 minutes from Belmayne to the city, and likewise to Belmayne from the city, and at least 4-6 trains each way to/from Howth and Malahide, broadly as now.

Enterprise and Dundalk trains would be unaffected, because they'd be on the 4-track line, and could perhaps even see services improved.

DoctorPan · 26-06-2021 4:27pm

donvito99 wrote: »

Are you in a position to reveal generally what the solutions proposed might be?

I'm afraid I'm not until they get published for public consulation but I can mention that there's tweaks to station layouts at Howth Junct, Clongriffin and Malahide for turnbacks/shuttle services.

CatInABox · 26-06-2021 4:41pm

DoctorPan wrote: »

I'm afraid I'm not until they get published for public consulation but I can mention that there's tweaks to station layouts at Howth Junct, Clongriffin and Malahide for turnbacks/shuttle services.

I'll totally chance my arm here: Tell them to look at putting an entrance into Killester station onto Collins Avenue. Justify it by telling them it'll tie into BusConnects.

:P

strassenwo!f · 26-06-2021 5:40pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Operationally the main need for three/four tracking is from between Clontarf Road and Killester to Raheny - that would allow na stopping DART to be overtaken before Howth Junction.

And is there a ballpark figure for what that would cost?

DoctorPan · 26-06-2021 6:30pm

CatInABox wrote: »

I'll totally chance my arm here: Tell them to look at putting an entrance into Killester station onto Collins Avenue. Justify it by telling them it'll tie into BusConnects.

:P

Funnily enough I'm out this week surveying the stations in relation to passenger capacity and their ability to handle the projected loads and access points. I'll see what I can slip in!

SeanW · 26-06-2021 6:36pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

That can only work for electric trains.

If it is proposed to build tunnels for express services, then some dual mode (diesel and electric) locomotives and MUs would be a relatively small cost.

LXFlyer · 26-06-2021 6:45pm

SeanW wrote: »

If it is proposed to build tunnels for express services, then some dual mode (diesel and electric) locomotives and MUs would be a relatively small cost.

There are no tunnels planned, aside from DART Underground / DART+ Tunnel which is on the very long finger!).

It would only be for DART services.

strassenwo!f · 26-06-2021 7:10pm

SeanW wrote: »

If it is proposed to build tunnels for express services, then some dual mode (diesel and electric) locomotives and MUs would be a relatively small cost.

Have tunnels been proposed for express services like the Enterprise? I haven't seen that on this thread.

densification · 26-06-2021 7:39pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Have tunnels been proposed for express services like the Enterprise? I haven't seen that on this thread.

I said I'd be open to tunnels instead of four tracking if it was the best options from an options assessment . I don't think it would be as it would probably be too expensive.

densification · 26-06-2021 7:47pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

And is there a ballpark figure for what that would cost?

The section of track from Howth Junction to Dublin Connolly must cater for Belfast-Dublin inter-city services as well as northern suburban line trains from Dundalk and Drogheda, and also DARTs from Malahide and Howth. The estimated cost of four-tracking this is €300 million.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/railways-need-660m-more-for-upgrading-1.370721

NOTE: This article is from 2003

CatInABox · 26-06-2021 10:15pm

DoctorPan wrote: »

Funnily enough I'm out this week surveying the stations in relation to passenger capacity and their ability to handle the projected loads and access points. I'll see what I can slip in!

Ha, funny how things can work out somethings. I'll admit Killester is probably able to handle the passengers, but it's in a very wheelchair hostile area, with paths that wouldn't fit a small buggy, never mind a wheelchair.

It'd seem relatively easy to me to put a long ramp down from Collins Ave down to the platforms, but I'll admit that I've no engineering skill whatsoever. An entrance there would put an entrance closer to a BusConnects spine and an orbital, while also improving wheelchair access.

Great that they're even looking into, and thanks for responding here, be very easy to say nothing.

strassenwo!f · 27-06-2021 1:24am

densification wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/railways-need-660m-more-for-upgrading-1.370721

NOTE: This article is from 2003

Thanks for that. My earliest frame of reference is around 2005, when the DART Underground was projected to cost round 1.2 billion euro.

spacetweek · 27-06-2021 10:10pm

The article predicts 54-76M pax/year by 2020.

In fact in 2019 the figure was only 50 million. This is still a huge increase since 2003.

densification · 28-06-2021 1:05pm

spacetweek wrote: »

The article predicts 54-76M pax/year by 2020.

In fact in 2019 the figure was only 50 million. This is still a huge increase since 2003.

No Covid, we would've been at the low end of that estimate. Not bad considering it was based on continuing massive economic growth of the early 2000s and obviously didn't account for a massive recession.

densification · 28-06-2021 1:14pm

DoctorPan wrote: »

I'm afraid I'm not until they get published for public consulation but I can mention that there's tweaks to station layouts at Howth Junct, Clongriffin and Malahide for turnbacks/shuttle services.

Howth-Howth Junction probably should be a shuttle but that's gonna be very politically toxic when it happens.

It'll improve punctuality and frequency of other Northern Line services, but rich people in Howth will lose their direct trains to town and have to get off and change at Howth Junction.

I'd want to see some stations improvements at HJ. Its design and clientele aren't the most pleasant. Definitely in the top 3 dodgiest stations on the Dart.

LXFlyer · 28-06-2021 1:21pm

densification wrote: »

Howth-Howth Junction probably should be a shuttle but that's gonna be very politically toxic when it happens.

It'll improve punctuality and frequency of other Northern Line services, but rich people in Howth will lose their direct trains to town and have to get off and change at Howth Junction.

I'd want to see some stations improvements at HJ. Its design and clientele aren't the most pleasant. Definitely in the top 3 dodgiest stations on the Dart.

They would get a 10 minute frequency on the branch though which would be at least double the current one.

GerardKeating · 28-06-2021 1:29pm

densification wrote: »

Howth-Howth Junction probably should be a shuttle but that's gonna be very politically toxic when it happens

This might be made more palatible if HJ was revamped and the branch extended.

One could extend it from "Howth Junction/ Donaghmede" to Coolock and link to Metro North.

densification · 28-06-2021 1:33pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

They would get a 10 minute frequency on the branch though which would be at least double the current one.

A 100% increase in services overall but a 100% decrease in direct services.

I think most of them would prefer the current timetable and I can't blame them tbh.

But it's for the greater good: the people of Howth aren't more important than Balbriggan, Drogheda etc who need a better, more frequent service.

BonnieSituation · 28-06-2021 1:54pm

It would strike me as the obvious solution to the HJ/D anti social behaviour and general kip problem to increase its use by having the shuttle.

If EVERYONE had to hop off at HJ/D going to Howth then it stands to reason that the long-standing issues would reduce and dissipate.

densification · 28-06-2021 1:59pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It would strike me as the obvious solution to the HJ/D anti social behaviour and general kip problem to increase its use by having the shuttle.

If EVERYONE had to hop off at HJ/D going to Howth then it stands to reason that the long-standing issues would reduce and dissipate.

Ye, that's a good point. It's not a very heavily used stop. Some more passive surveillance wouldn't hurt. I think it has Irish Rail security there full time now and Gardaí assisting ticket inspectors at weekends.

lucernarian · 28-06-2021 2:13pm

DoctorPan wrote: »

Funnily enough I'm out this week surveying the stations in relation to passenger capacity and their ability to handle the projected loads and access points. I'll see what I can slip in!

I'd have to flag Clontarf Road as an exceptionally "economic" build, unnecessarily far away from very densely populated areas (East Wall) and large centres of employment (East Point + other nearby offices). And the overbridge and narrow staircase makes Drumcondra feel like Shinjuku station in comparison. Plus complete lack of permeability from the nearby Fairview. Disaster of a station in every way.

densification · 28-06-2021 2:50pm

lucernarian wrote: »

I'd have to flag Clontarf Road as an exceptionally "economic" build, unnecessarily far away from very densely populated areas (East Wall) and large centres of employment (East Point + other nearby offices). And the overbridge and narrow staircase makes Drumcondra feel like Shinjuku station in comparison. Plus complete lack of permeability from the nearby Fairview. Disaster of a station in every way.

Clontarf road platforms should be right up to the road (like drumcondra) imo. It was clearly designed for people to drive there and park. An urban park and ride one station away from the core city centre.

Drumcondra could do with another entrance on St Anne’s Road. the current entrance just can’t handle many passengers. I think we should also move away from a barrier system to a luas style system. If metro and luas are tag on tag off, the Dart should be too.

AngryLips · 28-06-2021 3:42pm

Clontarf Road could benefit from being removed completely and replaced by two stations, one over East Wall Road and another just where the line meets the Malahide Road up a bit from Bram Stoker Park.

GerardKeating · 28-06-2021 4:52pm

AngryLips wrote: »

Clontarf Road could benefit from being removed completely and replaced by two stations, one over East Wall Road and another just where the line meets the Malahide Road up a bit from Bram Stoker Park.

Having a station where the line crosses the Clontarf Road, or even just before the Howth Road, should be easily doable.

But would a station fit where the line crosses the Tolka River.

LXFlyer · 28-06-2021 5:23pm

densification wrote: »

Clontarf road platforms should be right up to the road (like drumcondra) imo. It was clearly designed for people to drive there and park. An urban park and ride one station away from the core city centre.

Drumcondra could do with another entrance on St Anne’s Road. the current entrance just can’t handle many passengers. I think we should also move away from a barrier system to a luas style system. If metro and luas are tag on tag off, the Dart should be too.

You can’t put platforms right up to the road due to the northbound exit tracks out of the DART depot. That’s why the station is where it is.

bk · 28-06-2021 8:10pm

While Clontarf Road is far from ideal, I don't think it makes sense to move it either.

It is quiet accessible to East Point Business Park with the free shuttle buses that service the business park. In fact I think it is one of the better examples of service integration here in Ireland and one that cold be learned from.

As for moving it closer to East Wall, I don't think it would bring enough demand to justify it. East Wall is already so close to the city, it is within easy walking/cycling distance and it is very well served by multiple high frequency bus routes across multiple stops around the area.

With many of these closer bus stops having frequencies of 3 minutes or less almost right on peoples door steps, would it make sense for them to walk further to get a DART at a 10 minute or worse frequency?

You do need to be careful and consider what type of service it is, is it a mass transit frequent stop type service or a more longer distance commuter type service with less stops?

You would want to be careful of making it like Dublin Bus with far too many stops, too close to one another and thus a slower service.

gjim wrote: »

you could right that I'm getting into a flap over nothing, bk. However I had a look around at other commuter BEMU systems globally and maybe wikepedia is out of date in this regard since the latest dates seem to be 2019/2020, but there isn't any? Austria were trialing them and the Talent 3 project page says 7 trains to be delivered and that 21 trains had been ordered in Germany. The Japan BEMU is a tiny 20 train set that links two small towns 25k and 30k populations 20km apart. I don't like the idea of IR being the QA for a new train technology.

It is certainly newer tech. But it is certainly taking off at the moment, with multiple countries making big orders, for instance Germany placed an order for €600 million worth of trains, so we are far from being alone on this.

It really shouldn't be that cutting edge, EV buses are well proven at this stage and it should be just a case of scaling it up for trains. It shouldn't be a mystery for engineers to work out the required battery capacity for the given weight and size of trains.

AngryLips · 28-06-2021 8:40pm

bk wrote: »

As for moving it closer to East Wall, I don't think it would bring enough demand to justify it. East Wall is already so close to the city, it is within easy walking/cycling distance and it is very well served by multiple high frequency bus routes across multiple stops around the area.

Well I imagine there would be many benefits to better connecting Dart to East Wall besides getting people into the city centre.

Frankly, Clontarf Road is so disconnected from its surroundings as to be practically useless, and if Istanbul can build a transit station here then I don't understand why we can make Clontarf Road a bit more convenient to its surrounding neighbourhoods. The location of the station makes it feel unsavory and remote, sell the land for some apartments and use it to fund a better transit hub I say.

halic-metro-transport-villes-durables-istanbul-turquie.jpg?itok=l1RZ8k_C

halic-metro-transport-villes-durables-istanbul-turquie.jpg?itok=l1RZ8k_C

donvito99 · 28-06-2021 8:53pm

You could bring the northbound platform to the other side of Clontarf road, with access from the road but also via Charlemont lane, which makes Copeland Avenue and the Howth Road highly accessible. You'd duplicate lifts and gate lines but it is doable given the space there.

bk · 28-06-2021 9:00pm

AngryLips wrote: »

Well I imagine there would be many benefits to better connecting Dart to East Wall besides getting people into the city centre.

LOL, I knew someone would say that.

You know perfectly well that the vast majority of trips are into the city center. Other trip generators wouldn't break single digits and you want to spend millions to move a station for that! It isn't like people in East Wall aren't willing to walk 10 minutes if they were heading to Howth, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying don't improve the accessibility of the existing station, but moving it doesn't make sense.

donvito99 · 28-06-2021 9:06pm

bk wrote: »

LOL, I knew someone would say that.

You know perfectly well that the vast majority of trips are into the city center. Other trip generators wouldn't break single digits and you want to spend millions to move a station for that! It isn't like people in East Wall aren't willing to walk 10 minutes if they were heading to Howth, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying don't improve the accessibility of the existing station, but moving it doesn't make sense.

The station is there and you may as well let it operate just as any other station. There are lots of people continuing past Tara and Pearse to Grand Canal Dock and Lansdowne Road. Fairview, Marino and the bits of Clontarf in proximity to the station are as far from the city as Lansdown Road, so I don't know why you'd distinguish it?

DART+ (DART Expansion)

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