Underage soccer clubs that welcome all abilities

Cuttlefish · 16-06-2021 11:12am #1

OK so looking for some advice and guidance in relation to my nephew

He is going into secondary school next Sept and he loves soccer, now he recently joined a well known soccer club in the city and has been going to training and went to his first match out in Tramore last week but was never used during the game (along with a few other boys from what I understand) - he was visibly upset as you can understand

Now gonna say up front he is not a great footballer might even say below average nonetheless he loves soccer and would like him to be encouraged and included!

Firstly is there a common ethos that clubs at this level adopt with regards to "sport for all" and including all kids who attend training and want to play REGARDLESS of their level of ability or (probably answering the question myself here) is it - win at all cost and do so by playing your best players???

I was hoping that maybe the club may have formed a "B" team for boys of lesser ability so they could enjoy the beautiful game

Does anyone know of other clubs in the city that adopt a policy that all kids are involved and encouraged??
Would really love him to feel involved with a club and not feel left out

He is training again this evening but I dont see him getting much involvement bar basic training

I know some if not a lot of kids are better than him but as they say some of us open our presents later in life!!

What suggestions does anyone have

Thanks

dzilla · 16-06-2021 12:22pm

Cuttlefish wrote: »

OK so looking for some advice and guidance in relation to my nephew

He is going into secondary school next Sept and he loves soccer, now he recently joined a well known soccer club in the city and has been going to training and went to his first match out in Tramore last week but was never used during the game (along with a few other boys from what I understand) - he was visibly upset as you can understand

Now gonna say up front he is not a great footballer might even say below average nonetheless he loves soccer and would like him to be encouraged and included!

Firstly is there a common ethos that clubs at this level adopt with regards to "sport for all" and including all kids who attend training and want to play REGARDLESS of their level of ability or (probably answering the question myself here) is it - win at all cost and do so by playing your best players???

I was hoping that maybe the club may have formed a "B" team for boys of lesser ability so they could enjoy the beautiful game

Does anyone know of other clubs in the city that adopt a policy that all kids are involved and encouraged??
Would really love him to feel involved with a club and not feel left out

He is training again this evening but I dont see him getting much involvement bar basic training

I know some if not a lot of kids are better than him but as they say some of us open our presents later in life!!

What suggestions does anyone have

Thanks

Really disappointed to hear this, i kind of thought this type of nonsense at underage was gone, hope he gets sorted.

hardybuck · 16-06-2021 12:24pm

He's at the stage now where things are going to start getting a bit more ruthless unfortunately. While coaches should be giving lads a game whenever the opportunity arises, it won't always be possible to do so.

The bigger clubs in town should field more than one team in U12s and U13s, however their 'A' teams go out with an ethos of winning rather than giving everyone of all abilities a game.

Pretty sure that the likes of Bohs and Villa will have B or C teams at that age level. The alternative would be to approach one of the smaller clubs who play in a lower division and would appreciate an extra player.

If I was you I'd sound a couple of the clubs out - there's loads of teams to choose from.

gscully · 16-06-2021 12:43pm

Villa FC have a great setup for kids and run summer camps too.

I coach U12 there and we have 3 U12 teams at the moment and the ethos is that all boys get game time, even if it does cost us a result. It's more important that players learn the game than coaches get a win under their belt.

As a coach, I could never have a child on the sideline not getting any time in the game. That's just horrible and goes against what coaches are taught in the FAI Safeguarding course. A child's safety isn't just about protecting them from the unwanted attention of others. It's also about protecting their self-esteem.

If I was you, I'd be sending a message to that club's schoolboy liaison officer.

Your boy would be more than welcome at Villa, Bohs and Crystal where each club has 3 or 4 teams at each underage bracket.

hardybuck · 16-06-2021 1:11pm

gscully wrote: »

Villa FC have a great setup for kids and run summer camps too.

I coach U12 there and we have 3 U12 teams at the moment and the ethos is that all boys get game time, even if it does cost us a result. It's more important that players learn the game than coaches get a win under their belt.

As a coach, I could never have a child on the sideline not getting any time in the game. That's just horrible and goes against what coaches are taught in the FAI Safeguarding course. A child's safety isn't just about protecting them from the unwanted attention of others. It's also about protecting their self-esteem.

If I was you, I'd be sending a message to that club's schoolboy liaison officer.

Your boy would be more than welcome at Villa, Bohs and Crystal where each club has 3 or 4 teams at each underage bracket.

In fairness things do seem to have progressed significantly over the last ten years ago, both in terms of coach education and in terms of general outlook.

Even subtle changes in parent education can mean questions like "how did you get on, did you have fun?" are starting to be asked on the way home now rather than the old line of "Well, did you win", which can have a meaningful impact.

I can remember, in the not too distant past, some boys were getting 'released' at U12/13 level from one of the big clubs in town because they weren't going to be getting enough game time, when they'd be hoovering lads up from clubs all over the region at the same time. I think/hope those days are over though.

Milanative · 16-06-2021 1:17pm

I never went along with this whole let everyone have a game craic you could easily be hindering another child that could make it at a career level by taking minutes away from them just to be inclusive, the fact is the majority of us aren't good enough and we compensate by playing Sunday league, 5 a side etc and still love the game

Smee_Again · 16-06-2021 1:23pm

Can't really expect an 11 or 12 year old to play Sunday league and if they don't get game time now they'll have no interest in playing Sunday league when they're old enough.

DeanAustin · 16-06-2021 1:23pm

Milanative wrote: »

I never went along with this whole let everyone have a game craic you could easily be hindering another child that could make it at a career level by taking minutes away from them just to be inclusive, the fact is the majority of us aren't good enough and we compensate by playing Sunday league, 5 a side etc and still love the game

I'd agree to an extent particularly as kids get a bit older. We've gone way too far to the other extreme here. Kids will naturally be competitive and, particularly when they approaching teenage years, they'll focus on winning and that shouldn't be completely discouraged in my view.

However, if you're gonna ask kids to travel to games, you have to give them game time. The answer here should be that you stream the group so that you have multiple teams with players at a similar level and everyone plays.

gscully · 16-06-2021 1:25pm

hardybuck wrote: »

In fairness things do seem to have progressed significantly over the last ten years ago, both in terms of coach education and in terms of general outlook.

Even subtle changes in parent education can mean questions like "how did you get on, did you have fun?" are starting to be asked on the way home now rather than the old line of "Well, did you win", which can have a meaningful impact.

I can remember, in the not too distant past, some boys were getting 'released' at U12/13 level from one of the big clubs in town because they weren't going to be getting enough game time, when they'd be hoovering lads up from clubs all over the region at the same time. I think/hope those days are over though.

I also remember world-beaters playing at that age and as they grew, others grew faster and better. It's all about child welfare and fun and as you say, most clubs, coaches and parents realise that. Of course it's more fun when you're winning, but teams win and lose together and socialise together and that's the most important thing.

salmocab · 16-06-2021 1:26pm

Milanative wrote: »

I never went along with this whole let everyone have a game craic you could easily be hindering another child that could make it at a career level by taking minutes away from them just to be inclusive, the fact is the majority of us aren't good enough and we compensate by playing Sunday league, 5 a side etc and still love the game

The kids can’t play Sunday league or 5 aside as they are kids and any sport or club that isn’t doing it’s best by children needs to take a good look at itself.

Milanative · 16-06-2021 1:31pm

is there really no Sunday leagues for kids?

Iscreamkone · 16-06-2021 1:55pm

I'm guessing this lad is u13 now. The new u14 season starts in September.
This is old to be joining up and expecting to get game time with any A teams.
However, clubs will have weaker teams for beginner/weaker players. Quite possible to progress up the teams with training and time.
An adult needs to have a chat with a club rep and find a suitable team for this lad.
If the club doesn't have anything suitable then another club will.

It was unfortunate that he didn't get any game time. There may be a legitimate reason such as the season is now well underway and they are a serious competitive team, and this lad's ability is still unclear.

There is definitely teams that will be delighted to have him.

I coach u7/u8 football and GAA.
The main focus of our coaching is to introduce basic skills in a fun way - but my personal goal is that when a young lad is asked if he wants to come back next week - he replies "YES".
Job done then, in my opinion.

lassykk · 16-06-2021 2:26pm

Cuttlefish wrote: »

OK so looking for some advice and guidance in relation to my nephew

He is going into secondary school next Sept and he loves soccer, now he recently joined a well known soccer club in the city and has been going to training and went to his first match out in Tramore last week but was never used during the game (along with a few other boys from what I understand) - he was visibly upset as you can understand

Now gonna say up front he is not a great footballer might even say below average nonetheless he loves soccer and would like him to be encouraged and included!

Firstly is there a common ethos that clubs at this level adopt with regards to "sport for all" and including all kids who attend training and want to play REGARDLESS of their level of ability or (probably answering the question myself here) is it - win at all cost and do so by playing your best players???

I was hoping that maybe the club may have formed a "B" team for boys of lesser ability so they could enjoy the beautiful game

Does anyone know of other clubs in the city that adopt a policy that all kids are involved and encouraged??
Would really love him to feel involved with a club and not feel left out

He is training again this evening but I dont see him getting much involvement bar basic training

I know some if not a lot of kids are better than him but as they say some of us open our presents later in life!!

What suggestions does anyone have

Thanks

Sorry to hear this still goes on

Twenty five years on it still wrangles with me how Ferrybank behaved in the late 90s. At an under 11 stage going around South Kilkenny/Waterford/Carrick to take on the best players to drive "success" within the club to the detriment to the local lads who no longer could get a game.

Football at that age should be fun and not about destroying the confidence of lads who turn up week in week out for training and matches and never get a look in. I'm not even talking about poor players but not as good as these "superstars" brought in from the locality. Just to note yes I was one of these players but I wasn't alone in this on the teams.

I stopped playing junior league at 14 because of this and my daughter is about to start playing at a different club in the near future and I truly hope it isn't the same as it was back in the 90s whereby a group of middle aged men were trying to fuel their egos by putting in a mentality of winning at all costs rather than the duty of care they owed to kids.

Quigs Snr · 16-06-2021 3:44pm

gscully wrote: »

Villa FC have a great setup for kids and run summer camps too.

I coach U12 there and we have 3 U12 teams at the moment and the ethos is that all boys get game time, even if it does cost us a result. It's more important that players learn the game than coaches get a win under their belt.

As a coach, I could never have a child on the sideline not getting any time in the game. That's just horrible and goes against what coaches are taught in the FAI Safeguarding course. A child's safety isn't just about protecting them from the unwanted attention of others. It's also about protecting their self-esteem.

If I was you, I'd be sending a message to that club's schoolboy liaison officer.

Your boy would be more than welcome at Villa, Bohs and Crystal where each club has 3 or 4 teams at each underage bracket.

Its changed since I played there in the late 80s. Although to be fair, I was the worst player in the county if not the entire country. That being said I did get to make some appearances as an impact sub. I.e. come on with 5 mins to go when we were 5 goals down when I could no longer have a negative impact on the game.

I am nonetheless sending my kids down there for the summer camp and hoping that they get into it earlier than I did and hopefully enjoy it even more than I did (and all things considered, lack of talent aside I did love it).

16-06-2021 3:56pm

gscully wrote: »

Villa FC have a great setup for kids and run summer camps too.

I coach U12 there and we have 3 U12 teams at the moment and the ethos is that all boys get game time, even if it does cost us a result. It's more important that players learn the game than coaches get a win under their belt.

As a coach, I could never have a child on the sideline not getting any time in the game. That's just horrible and goes against what coaches are taught in the FAI Safeguarding course. A child's safety isn't just about protecting them from the unwanted attention of others. It's also about protecting their self-esteem.

If I was you, I'd be sending a message to that club's schoolboy liaison officer.

Your boy would be more than welcome at Villa, Bohs and Crystal where each club has 3 or 4 teams at each underage bracket.

Frankie was my coach as a kid and he treated every match like it was the champions League final ðŸ˜‚

It's good that Villa has changed in recent years. I was a sub for the U13s C team as a kid... I sucked.

Cuttlefish · 16-06-2021 5:28pm

DeanAustin wrote: »

I'd agree to an extent particularly as kids get a bit older. We've gone way too far to the other extreme here. Kids will naturally be competitive and, particularly when they approaching teenage years, they'll focus on winning and that shouldn't be completely discouraged in my view.

However, if you're gonna ask kids to travel to games, you have to give them game time. The answer here should be that you stream the group so that you have multiple teams with players at a similar level and everyone plays.

My thoughts exactly - my nephew went to Tramore for a game last Wednesday and just stood on the sideline for the whole duration this was after rushing from his swimming classes!!
Yes agree it is in their nature to be competitive and should be encouraged however not all kids are so skilful nonetheless ALL kids should be encourage.

If my nephew is playing for a team suited to his level them I think it would be great

Cuttlefish · 16-06-2021 5:30pm

Iscreamkone wrote: »

I'm guessing this lad is u13 now. The new u14 season starts in September.
This is old to be joining up and expecting to get game time with any A teams.
However, clubs will have weaker teams for beginner/weaker players. Quite possible to progress up the teams with training and time.
An adult needs to have a chat with a club rep and find a suitable team for this lad.
If the club doesn't have anything suitable then another club will.

It was unfortunate that he didn't get any game time. There may be a legitimate reason such as the season is now well underway and they are a serious competitive team, and this lad's ability is still unclear.

There is definitely teams that will be delighted to have him.

I coach u7/u8 football and GAA.
The main focus of our coaching is to introduce basic skills in a fun way - but my personal goal is that when a young lad is asked if he wants to come back next week - he replies "YES".
Job done then, in my opinion.

Exactly - did you have fun? Yes Will you come back next week? Yes

resounding endorsement

Cuttlefish · 16-06-2021 11:17pm

Iscreamkone wrote: »

I'm guessing this lad is u13 now. The new u14 season starts in September.
This is old to be joining up and expecting to get game time with any A teams.
However, clubs will have weaker teams for beginner/weaker players. Quite possible to progress up the teams with training and time.
An adult needs to have a chat with a club rep and find a suitable team for this lad.
If the club doesn't have anything suitable then another club will.

It was unfortunate that he didn't get any game time. There may be a legitimate reason such as the season is now well underway and they are a serious competitive team, and this lad's ability is still unclear.

There is definitely teams that will be delighted to have him.

I coach u7/u8 football and GAA.
The main focus of our coaching is to introduce basic skills in a fun way - but my personal goal is that when a young lad is asked if he wants to come back next week - he replies "YES".
Job done then, in my opinion.

Just to reiterate my nephew is a very weak player and I dont expect him to be in the "A" team or to ever get into the "A" team

If the club has "B", "C" and even "D" teams that he can participate in then great, he will never develop into a seriously good player NONETHELESS he loves playing football and being part of the team and would like that to be nurtured and encouraged. I dont want him to walk away from it because of what happened

mugsymugsy · 16-06-2021 11:26pm

Hope the lad can get a game somewhere and keep up his enthusiasm.

Teams should be looking at this type of thing - I know it's GAA but I think the emphasis should be to get as many people involved in sport

https://www.balls.ie/gaa/nemo-rangers-underage-philosophy-422455

DeanAustin · 17-06-2021 10:06am

Cuttlefish wrote: »

My thoughts exactly - my nephew went to Tramore for a game last Wednesday and just stood on the sideline for the whole duration this was after rushing from his swimming classes!!
Yes agree it is in their nature to be competitive and should be encouraged however not all kids are so skilful nonetheless ALL kids should be encourage.

If my nephew is playing for a team suited to his level them I think it would be great

Personally, I think that's disgraceful if he's made the effort to turn up. Some underage coaches think they're the next Mourinho. I do a bit of coaching at under 10 level and for the matches I spend a lot of time trying to manage subs and rotating people into goal so everyone gets equal time. A couple of times that's been counterproductive if you have a lot of subs but I think it's wrong if the kids aren't getting proper game time. Particularly with their parents on the line - it's kinda humiliating.

Played a friendly game last week against a team whose coach brought a tactics board to instruct his players. They were great but I thought that was a bit much for 8 and 9 year olds personally.

Bards · 17-06-2021 12:45pm

take a look at Park Rangers - they are an all-inclusive club regardless of ability or disability

ec18 · 17-06-2021 2:33pm

if he's not good enough he shouldn't play......how that's managed on a club level is open to question whether they should be a, b, c teams. But the idea that he should play just because he showed up isn't great.

It's all well and good saying everyone has to play win or lose, what happens if he costs the team the game ? how would the rest of the team feel then?

Unfortunately he's at that age where sport gets a bit more intense in terms of competition and some players trying to make a career of it or to win what they can locally.

Cuttlefish · 17-06-2021 3:44pm

ec18 wrote: »

if he's not good enough he shouldn't play......how that's managed on a club level is open to question whether they should be a, b, c teams. But the idea that he should play just because he showed up isn't great.

It's all well and good saying everyone has to play win or lose, what happens if he costs the team the game ? how would the rest of the team feel then?

Unfortunately he's at that age where sport gets a bit more intense in terms of competition and some players trying to make a career of it or to win what they can locally.

Hi thanks for the reply - I didn’t once say just cos he turns up that he expects to get a game !

Another point - who is good enough and who determines that ??

The jist of my thread was to determine if clubs have adopted a win at all cost ethos or inclusivity

Yes if they have weaker teams then if he good enough for those teams he could fit in there

He is 13 not 18 or 23 and your idea of making a career well if they good enough they will already be across the water before they turn 10

hardybuck · 17-06-2021 4:18pm

Cuttlefish wrote: »

Hi thanks for the reply - I didn’t once say just cos he turns up that he expects to get a game !

Another point - who is good enough and who determines that ??

The jist of my thread was to determine if clubs have adopted a win at all cost ethos or inclusivity

Yes if they have weaker teams then if he good enough for those teams he could fit in there

He is 13 not 18 or 23 and your idea of making a career well if they good enough they will already be across the water before they turn 10

You'd be surprised how the young lads will be realistic enough about their own abilities even at this stage. Often they're more aware of that than their parents - many of whom are totally unrealistic.

I think the previous poster was making the point that regardless of the club's ethos, he could be under pressure from the other boys if he's a weak link and out of his depth. Doesn't matter if you're playing U13B or over 35s astro league, nobody wants to be that guy. He will enjoy that even less than standing on the sideline.

The key here now at the moment is to find the right level and the right environment for him.

bradolf pittler · 17-06-2021 5:56pm

ec18 wrote: »

if he's not good enough he shouldn't play......how that's managed on a club level is open to question whether they should be a, b, c teams. But the idea that he should play just because he showed up isn't great.

It's all well and good saying everyone has to play win or lose, what happens if he costs the team the game ? how would the rest of the team feel then?

Unfortunately he's at that age where sport gets a bit more intense in terms of competition and some players trying to make a career of it or to win what they can locally.

Maybe i'm wrong here but isn't it the job of the coach to train and try to improve the whole squad of kids on the team regardless of results?
I'm involved in a totally different sport but having coached and attended some seminars on coaching at underage levels the role of a coach should be to try and continuosly improve the standard of the team or players he/she is in charge of.
It saddens me to hear of young kids dropping out of the sport they love through poor or non-existant coaching.
All it would take is a 10 min 1 on 1 from his current coach to build up this kids confidence and make him feel wanted in the team.
I hope things get better for him and all the other kids in similar situations

salmocab · 17-06-2021 6:15pm

bradolf pittler wrote: »

Maybe i'm wrong here but isn't it the job of the coach to train and try to improve the whole squad of kids on the team regardless of results?
I'm involved in a totally different sport but having coached and attended some seminars on coaching at underage levels the role of a coach should be to try and continuosly improve the standard of the team or players he/she is in charge of.
It saddens me to hear of young kids dropping out of the sport they love through poor or non-existant coaching.
All it would take is a 10 min 1 on 1 from his current coach to build up this kids confidence and make him feel wanted in the team.
I hope things get better for him and all the other kids in similar situations

But if he coaches the not so good kids and his team loses he won’t be able to tell the lads in work on Monday about another great victory that came about by his great coaching.

17-06-2021 10:35pm

Cuttlefish wrote: »

Just to reiterate my nephew is a very weak player and I dont expect him to be in the "A" team or to ever get into the "A" team

If the club has "B", "C" and even "D" teams that he can participate in then great, he will never develop into a seriously good player NONETHELESS he loves playing football and being part of the team and would like that to be nurtured and encouraged. I dont want him to walk away from it because of what happened

Get his parents to get him involved in another sport!

Sport is what it is and unfortunately people won't waste their time with weak players!

Motivator · 18-06-2021 12:44am

ec18 wrote: »

if he's not good enough he shouldn't play......how that's managed on a club level is open to question whether they should be a, b, c teams. But the idea that he should play just because he showed up isn't great.

It's all well and good saying everyone has to play win or lose, what happens if he costs the team the game ? how would the rest of the team feel then?

Unfortunately he's at that age where sport gets a bit more intense in terms of competition and some players trying to make a career of it or to win what they can locally.

This is the thing, throwing a young lad of that age into a team of players and against opposition players that are better than him will do more harm to his self esteem than not getting on at all. At his age, the club are dealing with a core group of lads that have probably been playing for the last couple of years so the coaches know the better players and know the weaker ones. Either the kid in question is brand new to the club and brand new to the sport because the club should have him on a weaker team as some suggested. I know very few if any schoolboy teams in Waterford with only an A team.

He’s about to go into secondary school so he’s not too young to know how sport works. All age groups up to U11 were about having fun and inclusion etc but if you don’t start taking things a bit more serious from U11 then what happens is your club gets left behind because other clubs are taking things more serious. The knock on effect is a club that has spent 3 or 4 years developing a young lad with decent ability will lose the player to another club because things are done better. At that age, you just want to win and I know at that age if our manager was costing us games because he had to give everyone a run then I’d have been on my way out to a different team.

I’m not trying to be smart but schoolboy soccer is nowhere near as cutthroat as juvenile hurling or football. Clubs are manic about winning nowadays and they’ll play their best players at all times.

StringerBell · 18-06-2021 9:22am

My son and daughter are both at Villa, and I would recommend them to anyone who asked. Not sure about matches yet as with Covid they haven't really been a factor as they are both new to the club but they both really enjoy the training

ec18 · 18-06-2021 3:37pm

Cuttlefish wrote: »

Hi thanks for the reply - I didn’t once say just cos he turns up that he expects to get a game !

Another point - who is good enough and who determines that ??

The jist of my thread was to determine if clubs have adopted a win at all cost ethos or inclusivity

Yes if they have weaker teams then if he good enough for those teams he could fit in there

He is 13 not 18 or 23 and your idea of making a career well if they good enough they will already be across the water before they turn 10

You kinda did though, this thread is about him showing up and not being getting some game time.

Clearly the coach determines who the best players are. They are the ones that are at training and picking the team. You've said yourself he's not the best player.

That's fair about going across the water already. It doesn't mean that the rest of the team don't want to win games or leagues etc. Just because he didn't get to play doesn't mean the club has a win at all costs mentality? Maybe they have a the best trainers get played?

Look if he's not the best football player he's in for weeks like this for a while until he finds a team/league level that he's competitive at. Anything else is just putting off the inevitable.

Raytown Rocks · 18-06-2021 3:54pm

How about yourself or one of his parents contact the club
See if they have a 2nd team
If the don't, maybe look to start one up at the club yourselves
See if there are any other parents willing to help

Remember the coaches are volunteers
They put an awful lot of effort into training teams.
It can be very difficult to please everyone.

Your nephew may indeed prosper playing at a lower level, against lads of similar skill.
See what you can do to help.

Cuttlefish · 19-06-2021 8:09am

chef wrote: »

How about yourself or one of his parents contact the club
See if they have a 2nd team
If the don't, maybe look to start one up at the club yourselves
See if there are any other parents willing to help

Remember the coaches are volunteers
They put an awful lot of effort into training teams.
It can be very difficult to please everyone.

Your nephew may indeed prosper playing at a lower level, against lads of similar skill.
See what you can do to help.

Good point! Thank you

Cuttlefish · 19-06-2021 8:19am

ec18 wrote: »

You kinda did though, this thread is about him showing up and not being getting some game time.

Clearly the coach determines who the best players are. They are the ones that are at training and picking the team. You've said yourself he's not the best player.

That's fair about going across the water already. It doesn't mean that the rest of the team don't want to win games or leagues etc. Just because he didn't get to play doesn't mean the club has a win at all costs mentality? Maybe they have a the best trainers get played?

Look if he's not the best football player he's in for weeks like this for a while until he finds a team/league level that he's competitive at. Anything else is just putting off the inevitable.

No the jist of my thread was to determine what is standard practice of schoolboy soccer teams with regards games - is it sport for all ethos or best team put out

Firstly is there a common ethos that clubs at this level adopt with regards to "sport for all" and including all kids who attend training and want to play REGARDLESS of their level of ability or (probably answering the question myself here) is it - win at all cost and do so by playing your best players???

I was hoping that maybe the club may have formed a "B" team for boys of lesser ability so they could enjoy the beautiful game

Yes I said he is not a great player perhaps not even an average player that is why I was asking if clubs have "B" and "C" teams that allow less skilful players participate and enjoy themselves

I am trying to find out what is best for my nephew, not expecting him to get picked just cos he turns up for training/ games

thomasm · 19-06-2021 9:05am

Cuttlefish wrote: »

OK so looking for some advice and guidance in relation to my nephew

He is going into secondary school next Sept and he loves soccer, now he recently joined a well known soccer club in the city and has been going to training and went to his first match out in Tramore last week but was never used during the game (along with a few other boys from what I understand) - he was visibly upset as you can understand

Now gonna say up front he is not a great footballer might even say below average nonetheless he loves soccer and would like him to be encouraged and included!

Firstly is there a common ethos that clubs at this level adopt with regards to "sport for all" and including all kids who attend training and want to play REGARDLESS of their level of ability or (probably answering the question myself here) is it - win at all cost and do so by playing your best players???

I was hoping that maybe the club may have formed a "B" team for boys of lesser ability so they could enjoy the beautiful game

Does anyone know of other clubs in the city that adopt a policy that all kids are involved and encouraged??
Would really love him to feel involved with a club and not feel left out

He is training again this evening but I dont see him getting much involvement bar basic training

I know some if not a lot of kids are better than him but as they say some of us open our presents later in life!!

What suggestions does anyone have

Thanks

Is it not a case that Tramore were due to provide a third team for an additional game and this is where the problem stemmed from. The coaches can’t do anything about this. Apologies were made to parents and kids and the club are liasing with schoolboy chairperson to get more games and all of this was relayed to parents.

I imagine it’s hard for a club when they have so many keen players to find games for them all. The alternative would be to limit the amount who can train which in my view would be worse. They also stated one selection criteria for games would be those who turned up for training the most.

Cuttlefish · 19-06-2021 4:44pm

thomasm wrote: »

Is it not a case that Tramore were due to provide a third team for an additional game and this is where the problem stemmed from. The coaches can’t do anything about this. Apologies were made to parents and kids and the club are liasing with schoolboy chairperson to get more games and all of this was relayed to parents.

I imagine it’s hard for a club when they have so many keen players to find games for them all. The alternative would be to limit the amount who can train which in my view would be worse. They also stated one selection criteria for games would be those who turned up for training the most.

To clarify my nephew went to a match last week hosted in Tramore, he doesn’t play for Tramore

thomasm · 19-06-2021 8:06pm

Cuttlefish wrote: »

To clarify my nephew went to a match last week hosted in Tramore, he doesn’t play for Tramore

I understand but the team your nephew plays for were under the impression there would be three games and not two and brought players for three games hence the reason he did not get a game. This is second hand information but confident it’s true

Cuttlefish · 19-06-2021 11:59pm

thomasm wrote: »

I understand but the team your nephew plays for were under the impression there would be three games and not two and brought players for three games hence the reason he did not get a game. This is second hand information but confident it’s true

OK thanks very much didn't know that.

spaceCreated · 21-06-2021 5:52pm

ec18 wrote: »

if he's not good enough he shouldn't play......how that's managed on a club level is open to question whether they should be a, b, c teams. But the idea that he should play just because he showed up isn't great.

It's all well and good saying everyone has to play win or lose, what happens if he costs the team the game ? how would the rest of the team feel then?

Unfortunately he's at that age where sport gets a bit more intense in terms of competition and some players trying to make a career of it or to win what they can locally.

And its reasons like that Harry Kane got turfed out of Arsenal. There are plenty of kids at underage who look great because they're a bit quicker or bigger and plenty of kids who develop 2 left legs while they get used of their new height etc. Obviously there are better kids but theres reasons that we're not doing much at international level these days and it doesnt seem the approach of only getting the kids that get you results at u13 works out at anything but u13.

Iscreamkone · 21-06-2021 10:44pm

spaceCreated wrote: »

And its reasons like that Harry Kane got turfed out of Arsenal. There are plenty of kids at underage who look great because they're a bit quicker or bigger and plenty of kids who develop 2 left legs while they get used of their new height etc. Obviously there are better kids but theres reasons that we're not doing much at international level these days and it doesnt seem the approach of only getting the kids that get you results at u13 works out at anything but u13.

Why can’t u13 be just about u13. Why does it all have to be about developing the next Iniesta?
Some lads greatest sporting achievement will be winning the u13 Cup… and good luck to them.

ThumbTaxed · 22-06-2021 11:04am

Definitely try Villa. My oldest started at 11 and even though he was struggling they kept giving him a chance. He now is a starter every game at a low level, but he plays.

At under 11s and under 12s I can see the weaker kids getting a chance as well. Great club.

spaceCreated · 22-06-2021 5:37pm

Iscreamkone wrote: »

Why can’t u13 be just about u13. Why does it all have to be about developing the next Iniesta?
Some lads greatest sporting achievement will be winning the u13 Cup… and good luck to them.

When most people would say let 13 year olds be 13 year olds they would mean they should be enjoying the game not be put under heaps of pressure so they can win a medal that goes in to the attic with the rest of them. Much better to be focused on enjoying the game, giving 100% and improving and winning second than trying to win everything. By definition only a very few could win so if thats all that matters...

Iscreamkone · 22-06-2021 9:04pm

I’m involved with u7& u8s. We do everything to take the winning out of their games. Subbing the best players, making goals of uneven sizes, even joining in with the losing teams to help them. These kids still keep the score. They know if they’ve won or lost the game, even when we lie and say that that it was a draw again this week.

U13 is a different ball game. This is proper competition. Lads are trying to get on representative teams and on to fai trials etc.

B & C teams can muck about a bit, but the A teams should be trying to win. Trying to win is enjoyable. Winning for some teams may be getting to the second round or just keeping the score down.

Roy Keane was playing u13 to win, not to look pretty. Winning is enjoyable. Winning football is good football.

Not everyone can win trophies but trying your best to win must be encouraged.

Winning is not a dirty word in spite of what some coaching manuals will tell you.

spaceCreated · 22-06-2021 9:49pm

Iscreamkone wrote: »

I’m involved with u7& u8s. We do everything to take the winning out of their games. Subbing the best players, making goals of uneven sizes, even joining in with the losing teams to help them. These kids still keep the score. They know if they’ve won or lost the game, even when we lie and say that that it was a draw again this week.

U13 is a different ball game. This is proper competition. Lads are trying to get on representative teams and on to fai trials etc.

B & C teams can muck about a bit, but the A teams should be trying to win. Trying to win is enjoyable. Winning for some teams may be getting to the second round or just keeping the score down.

Roy Keane was playing u13 to win, not to look pretty. Winning is enjoyable. Winning football is good football.

Not everyone can win trophies but trying your best to win must be encouraged.

Winning is not a dirty word in spite of what some coaching manuals will tell you.

Youre making different points in your posts, first it was about just winning for winnings sake, now its about getting the players on to trials etc. I think if its winning above all else you risk throwing the baby out with the bathwater, like Seamus Coleman being told he wasnt good enough to play for an FAI team a year before being signed for Everton is probably a sign of that.

Like I do see your points but I think a focus on your own game first and winning second is a much better approach, gets the mind focused on improving yourself and not whether you won or lost. I think plenty of lads throw in the sport or dont put in the effort around that time because all they see is pressure and not much fun. Im sure everyone knows at least a few lads who decided to throw it in or just not bother much at that age.

Roy Keane was a different thing altogether, that kind of stuff is formed earlier than u13 and u14. Sure encourage or hone the winning mentality, but trying to create that Roy Keane pressure cooker atmosphere at u13 is just a recipe for disaster if you ask me, these lads arent trying to win the premiership or champions league, theyre trying to show how good they are and win something in the process of doing it.

Iscreamkone · 22-06-2021 10:14pm

spaceCreated wrote: »

Youre making different points in your posts, first it was about just winning for winnings sake, now its about getting the players on to trials etc. I think if its winning above all else you risk throwing the baby out with the bathwater, like Seamus Coleman being told he wasnt good enough to play for an FAI team a year before being signed for Everton is probably a sign of that.

Like I do see your points but I think a focus on your own game first and winning second is a much better approach, gets the mind focused on improving yourself and not whether you won or lost. I think plenty of lads throw in the sport or dont put in the effort around that time because all they see is pressure and not much fun. Im sure everyone knows at least a few lads who decided to throw it in or just not bother much at that age.

Roy Keane was a different thing altogether, that kind of stuff is formed earlier than u13 and u14. Sure encourage or hone the winning mentality, but trying to create that Roy Keane pressure cooker atmosphere at u13 is just a recipe for disaster if you ask me, these lads arent trying to win the premiership or champions league, theyre trying to show how good they are and win something in the process of doing it.

Winning clubs will get more players on representative teams. But the weaker players on winning teams will be very happy “just” to win trophies. Kids dream of getting the winning goal in the World Cup/Champions League final - winning is the goal. At the end of the day winning is more fun than losing.

Motivator · 22-06-2021 10:39pm

spaceCreated wrote: »

Youre making different points in your posts, first it was about just winning for winnings sake, now its about getting the players on to trials etc. I think if its winning above all else you risk throwing the baby out with the bathwater, like Seamus Coleman being told he wasnt good enough to play for an FAI team a year before being signed for Everton is probably a sign of that.

Like I do see your points but I think a focus on your own game first and winning second is a much better approach, gets the mind focused on improving yourself and not whether you won or lost. I think plenty of lads throw in the sport or dont put in the effort around that time because all they see is pressure and not much fun. Im sure everyone knows at least a few lads who decided to throw it in or just not bother much at that age.

Roy Keane was a different thing altogether, that kind of stuff is formed earlier than u13 and u14. Sure encourage or hone the winning mentality, but trying to create that Roy Keane pressure cooker atmosphere at u13 is just a recipe for disaster if you ask me, these lads arent trying to win the premiership or champions league, theyre trying to show how good they are and win something in the process of doing it.

There’s a reason there are competitive games from u11 upwards. There are leagues and cups there to be won, all the years up to the first competitive game for a young player are about enjoyment and learning the game. Once the first competitive game kicks off then it’s a win mentality that the young lads are taught. And rightly so, coaching kids at 11, 12 or 13 and telling them that winning isn’t the main aim is just not something that happens. Yeah, kids are encouraged to go and enjoy themselves but they’re expected to win.

Flow Motion · 23-06-2021 10:28am

DeanAustin wrote: »

Personally, I think that's disgraceful if he's made the effort to turn up. Some underage coaches think they're the next Mourinho.

Some?? About 90% think there are the next tactical guru meshing Klopp-Guardiola-Tuchel together to take on the world of underage soccer. Its a shame cos at that age it should all be about enjoying the game. I know guys who coach/manage at that level and was astounded to be told that they take notes each session/game, attend seminars, read tactical books etc. Im not gonna name any names or clubs but if your familiar with the scene you know the people.

Aside from these tactical guru's I find the manoeuvre of putting some kids on the first 11, regardless of talent, just cos their Daddy is some big shot around town disgusting. Only a few weeks back Mr X wrote a letter to a club in town after Jonny X wasnt getting his game, reminding said club of the amount of sponsorship he gave them the previous year! You'd have to pinch yourself to remind you its kids football in Waterford eh??

FootRace12 · 23-06-2021 10:59am

Sorry to hear this OP, if I may add some insight and hopefully you find a solution.

I live in Dublin and have been involved in soccer and GAA all my life. The difference in soccer and GAA is massive here and I’m sure all across the country when it comes to these type of scenarios. It’s tough on kids but it’s also expected.

We’ll stick with soccer as this is the sport your nephew loves. Here in Dublin with the ‘big clubs’ it is absolutely cut throat, from academy level moving to U7/8s. You have maybe 40-50 kids and a squad of maybe 15-20 could be picked to play for the team and the rest who have been at this club maybe since the age of 3 or 4 are cast aside. But as I said that is expected and unfortunately how soccer is. It won’t change. If a child is at one of these better clubs known to produce players who make careers from the game, and they are deemed as having less ability than others, they won’t be wanted. It’s tough but that’s the facts. I’ve seen it personally and while I know it’s hard on the kids and some parents, I think parents don’t understand how the game goes and these decisions have always been made like this.

There are plenty of local clubs that will take on these kids and they’ll simply get to play ball, make friends, enjoy training and playing matches in lower leagues at a lower level. Knowing they won’t make a career in the game but still fulfilling the love they have for it.

Just recently in the last couple of weeks I spoke to a guy who was basically told his kid wouldn’t be in the squad, along with another 13 kids who had been there for the last 4 years, for the upcoming season (u10s) and he couldn’t understand how a club could do this, a big well known league of Ireland club, and I felt for the guy and his kid. BUT I also understand the game and know these decisions are made every season, always have been and always will be.

This is where I told the guy look, there are hundreds of school boy teams here who will be delighted to welcome the child, they may not be in the top tier of children’s football, but will nonetheless get the same enjoyment. There is ‘elite’ levels of underage soccer here, and while I agree on one hand that’s how these kids will develop how they need to, I also understand kids and parents who don’t quite grasp this.

Rambling on now, but just know this, soccer is available for all abilities, there will always be clubs and coaches willing to take in any child at any level, so keep your nephews spirits high!

Motivator · 23-06-2021 11:16am

Flow Motion wrote: »

Some?? About 90% think there are the next tactical guru meshing Klopp-Guardiola-Tuchel together to take on the world of underage soccer. Its a shame cos at that age it should all be about enjoying the game. I know guys who coach/manage at that level and was astounded to be told that they take notes each session/game, attend seminars, read tactical books etc. Im not gonna name any names or clubs but if your familiar with the scene you know the people.

Aside from these tactical guru's I find the manoeuvre of putting some kids on the first 11, regardless of talent, just cos their Daddy is some big shot around town disgusting. Only a few weeks back Mr X wrote a letter to a club in town after Jonny X wasnt getting his game, reminding said club of the amount of sponsorship he gave them the previous year! You'd have to pinch yourself to remind you its kids football in Waterford eh??

You do realise the amount of time and effort that coaches put into training teams? I know a couple of coaches that put probably 10 or 12 hours a week into training one underage team. They get plenty of thanks off the parents, players and the club for it and I don’t think they’d be too bothered about someone like you slagging them off for it on an online forum!

I coached an u-14 team to win a league and cup double a few years ago. I had coached them from u-12 and it took two years for them to get to a position where we could win something. Did I take notes? Absolutely I did. Did I put a lot of effort into the coaching sessions each week? Absolutely I did. It was like a second job for me and I loved every minute of it. Some of the lads I had on the team will go on to play soccer at a high level locally, Premier football is the main aim for some of them and good luck to them. One lad is very bright and a very talented player and he wanted to go to America on a scholarship. That was his aim when he was 13. Commitment from players and coaches is what wins trophies and medals but it also encourages people to work harder. I’d love to hear in a few years time that the player has gone to America on a scholarship and I’d like to think the guidance he got from me at a very formative age helped him to get there in even a small way.

People who dedicate time and effort aren’t asking for recognition for what they’re doing, but they certainly shouldn’t be getting criticised for it.

Flow Motion · 23-06-2021 11:48am

Motivator wrote: »

You do realise the amount of time and effort that coaches put into training teams? I know a couple of coaches that put probably 10 or 12 hours a week into training one underage team. They get plenty of thanks off the parents, players and the club for it and I don’t think they’d be too bothered about someone like you slagging them off for it on an online forum!

I coached an u-14 team to win a league and cup double a few years ago. I had coached them from u-12 and it took two years for them to get to a position where we could win something. Did I take notes? Absolutely I did. Did I put a lot of effort into the coaching sessions each week? Absolutely I did. It was like a second job for me and I loved every minute of it. Some of the lads I had on the team will go on to play soccer at a high level locally, Premier football is the main aim for some of them and good luck to them. One lad is very bright and a very talented player and he wanted to go to America on a scholarship. That was his aim when he was 13. Commitment from players and coaches is what wins trophies and medals but it also encourages people to work harder. I’d love to hear in a few years time that the player has gone to America on a scholarship and I’d like to think the guidance he got from me at a very formative age helped him to get there in even a small way.

People who dedicate time and effort aren’t asking for recognition for what they’re doing, but they certainly shouldn’t be getting criticised for it.

Wasn't slagging anyone off just stating facts. Like many people Ive stood on the sidelines and observed the local guru coaches. And dont tell me certain young fellas dont get picked cos of cronyism. Money and status talks. Its not all about talent. Who you know also matters esp in a small place like Waterford. Your post just proved the case I laid out in my initial post.

Lots of "I's" in your post btw.

Motivator · 23-06-2021 12:39pm

Flow Motion wrote: »

Wasn't slagging anyone off just stating facts. Like many people Ive stood on the sidelines and observed the local guru coaches. And dont tell me certain young fellas dont get picked cos of cronyism. Money and status talks. Its not all about talent. Who you know also matters esp in a small place like Waterford. Your post just proved the case I laid out in my initial post.

Lots of "I's" in your post btw.

Lots of “I’s” in my post because I was talking about myself. The only thing this thread has shown is that there are an awful lot of bitter people who’s kids are sitting on their arses every Saturday morning or who were in the same position themselves when they were younger.

Moaning about the set up of a current club does nothing, either put the child in a weaker team or a different club or encourage them to work harder at their game. Cronyism doesn’t win teams matches so that’s nonsense talk. In my experience for competitive matches, players are picked on ability and not who their dad is. If a player is crap, no matter what age he is, he’s not going to play. Expecting a coach to play a young lad that is useless isn’t doing anyone any favours.

Squidvicious · 23-06-2021 12:48pm

Motivator wrote: »

Lots of “I’s” in my post because I was talking about myself. The only thing this thread has shown is that there are an awful lot of bitter people who’s kids are sitting on their arses every Saturday morning or who were in the same position themselves when they were younger.

Moaning about the set up of a current club does nothing, either put the child in a weaker team or a different club or encourage them to work harder at their game. Cronyism doesn’t win teams matches so that’s nonsense talk. In my experience for competitive matches, players are picked on ability and not who their dad is. If a player is crap, no matter what age he is, he’s not going to play. Expecting a coach to play a young lad that is useless isn’t doing anyone any favours.

To be fair, I don't see any bitter people here. I do see people who have concern for their children but few people here are slagging off the coaches. Foot Race made a very good point about GAA. GAA clubs do make more of an effort with the weaker kids. Without wanting to seem to be slagging off coaches(who I fully accept to great work on a volunteering basis), I really do have to question the FAI model underage. The idea that kids at 7 or 8 are cast on the scrap heap seems questionable to me. Is it really a good idea that some kids are put in such a competitive environment at such a young age while others are told that they're not good enough? Before you make assumptions, I'm not necessarily thinking just about the children's feelings etc. I also wonder whether this is good for the development of children's skills. Perhaps a less competitive environment with more emphasis on developing skills at younger ages would be better both for the kids and for improving football standards in this country?

Underage soccer clubs that welcome all abilities

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