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UEFA refuse to sanction illuminating Munich Stadium in rainbow colours

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13567…12

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    #62
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 24,824 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    ballsymchugh wrote: »
    the very nature of international football is political.

    The very nature of international football is a competitive sport...

    Nothing political will influence a result....


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    #63
    TheValeyard
    Registered Users Posts: 12,216 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    I dont get it.


    Take the knee, grand.

    Palestinian flags, no.

    Rainbow flag, no?

    Where's the booklet to explain which cause is socially acceptable to UEFA or not? Or is it all about money.

    But regardless, this was definitely a political move by the Munich Mayor. So I can see why they said no, but taking the knee is related to BLM which is totally political and ideological. So where's the line?

    Fcuk Putin. Glory to Ukraine!



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    #64
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,479 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    TheValeyard wrote: »
    I dont get it.


    Take the knee, grand.

    Palestinian flags, no.

    Rainbow flag, no?

    Where's the booklet to explain which cause is socially acceptable to UEFA or not? Or is it all about money.

    But regardless, this was definitely a political move by the Munich Mayor. So I can see why they said no, but taking the knee is related to BLM which is totally political and ideological. So where's the line?

    If I recall correctly, it is in the laws of the game. A player isnt allowed to reveal or display any political message or banner. The way it's written it means flags, slogans, banners etc. I believe the 'taking a knee' is a loophole in that it doesn't directly breach that restriction, being an action as opposed to a banner/flag/message.

    Either way, it is the correct decision from UEFA. 'Taking a knee' is already a bad precedent. If they don't enforce the rules somewhere every game of football is going to become a performative political statement. There has already been a negative reaction from fans to the Premier League & Sky going down this route in the UK, and football organisations like UEFA/FIFA must maintain political neutrality.

    Like it or not, the Hungarian government is well within their rights to pass their own laws, whatever the mayor of a city in Germany thinks.


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    #65
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Sand wrote: »
    If I recall correctly, it is in the laws of the game. A player isnt allowed to reveal or display any political message or banner. The way it's written it means flags, slogans, banners etc. I believe the 'taking a knee' is a loophole in that it doesn't directly breach that restriction, being an action as opposed to a banner/flag/message.

    Either way, it is the correct decision from UEFA. 'Taking a knee' is already a bad precedent. If they don't enforce the rules somewhere every game of football is going to become a performative political statement. There has already been a negative reaction from fans to the Premier League & Sky going down this route in the UK, and football organisations like UEFA/FIFA must maintain political neutrality.

    Like it or not, the Hungarian government is well within their rights to pass their own laws, whatever the mayor of a city in Germany thinks.

    They're free to create laws but equally everyone has a right to highlight their human rights violations. The fact that UEFA don't have the guts to stick up for human rights even when they claim to support them is more a negative reflection of the org. Question, do you view German antisemitic laws of the Nazi government in the 1930 to be perfectly within their rights? I'd personally think human rights should be a bit beyond standard politics at this stage, particularly for an org that claims to support them.


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    #66
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,479 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Deleted User wrote: »
    They're free to create laws but equally everyone has a right to highlight their human rights violations. The fact that UEFA don't have the guts to stick up for human rights even when they claim to support them is more a negative reflection of the org. Question, do you view German antisemitic laws of the Nazi government in the 1930 to be perfectly within their rights? I'd personally think human rights should be a bit beyond standard politics at this stage, particularly for an org that claims to support them.

    If you follow down that road, where does it end? At what point does UEFA and FIFA stop being a neutral sporting organisation and become a political NGO which will be treated as such by governments? Nobody is stopping anyone from protesting if that is what they want to do. But UEFA/FIFA aren't a political party.

    As for the Nazi Germany stuff, it really doesn't sound that dramatic: "The law prohibits sharing any content portraying homosexuality or sex reassignment to children under 18 in school sex education programs, films and advertisements." The school curriculum of Hungary isnt a human rights issue.


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    #67
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Sand wrote: »
    If you follow down that road, where does it end? At what point does UEFA and FIFA stop being a neutral sporting organisation and become a political NGO which will be treated as such by governments? Nobody is stopping anyone from protesting if that is what they want to do. But UEFA/FIFA aren't a political party.

    As for the Nazi Germany stuff, it really doesn't sound that dramatic: "The law prohibits sharing any content portraying homosexuality or sex reassignment to children under 18 in school sex education programs, films and advertisements." The school curriculum of Hungary isnt a human rights issue.

    It sort of is though, it's attempting to closet gay people. Not allowing children/teens to get actual supports when they're dealing with their sexuality. So creating a massively closeted generation with mental health issues due to the state making it taboo. Russia fell under similar criticism for such laws.

    And you either believe that every country has a right to create whatever laws that they want or don't? Eg would you think it should be okay to ban Jewish people from holding teaching roles? By your logic it should be fine and it's nobody else's business.


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    #68
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,479 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It sort of is though, it's attempting to closet gay people. Not allowing children/teens to get actual supports when they're dealing with their sexuality. So creating a massively closeted generation with mental health issues due to the state making it taboo. Russia fell under similar criticism for such laws.

    It sort of isn't though. It's a curriculum. Not everything you disagree with is a human rights issue.
    And you either believe that every country has a right to create whatever laws that they want or don't? Eg would you think it should be okay to ban Jewish people from holding teaching roles? By your logic it should be fine and it's nobody else's business.

    I wouldn't expect UEFA/FIFA to protest it on my behalf, which is what you are demanding they do on your behalf. They're a neutral sporting organisation and if they start getting into politics they're going to damage their ability to operate the game.

    If you have a real concern, go out to the Hungarian embassy in Dublin and express it.


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    #69
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 24,824 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    TheValeyard wrote: »
    I dont get it.


    Take the knee, grand.

    Palestinian flags, no.

    Rainbow flag, no?

    Where's the booklet to explain which cause is socially acceptable to UEFA or not? Or is it all about money.

    But regardless, this was definitely a political move by the Munich Mayor. So I can see why they said no, but taking the knee is related to BLM which is totally political and ideological. So where's the line?


    The line should be on the side of the pitch.

    When a player crosses it, no rainbow flag, no knee, no tapping your head in support of the alopecia association of Kazakstan... if it’s an international, anthems, play...nothing else...

    Every match now is some lineup of causes to be acknowledged, indulged...


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    #70
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    They're free to create laws but equally everyone has a right to highlight their human rights violations. The fact that UEFA don't have the guts to stick up for human rights even when they claim to support them is more a negative reflection of the org. Question, do you view German antisemitic laws of the Nazi government in the 1930 to be perfectly within their rights? I'd personally think human rights should be a bit beyond standard politics at this stage, particularly for an org that claims to support them.[

    Except they don't. The problem with BLM is that allowing that opens them up to clear charges of hypocrisy about pretty much anything else.

    As for the human rights of LGBT in Hungary, far better than most of the world, way better than Ireland for most of the 20C and better than Qatar.


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    #71
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It sort of is though, it's attempting to closet gay people. Not allowing children/teens to get actual supports when they're dealing with their sexuality. So creating a massively closeted generation with mental health issues due to the state making it taboo. Russia fell under similar criticism for such laws.

    Does Ireland even teach this stuff? We certainly didn't for most of our history.
    And you either believe that every country has a right to create whatever laws that they want or don't? Eg would you think it should be okay to ban Jewish people from holding teaching roles? By your logic it should be fine and it's nobody else's business.

    Not everything comes back to Nazi Germany. This is a law on a curriculum which is hardly the same as the holocaust. In any case the West doesn't get the dictate to the entire world what exactly they should teach or not. Its not even a EU competency, despite Ursula putting her oar in.


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    #72
    Quantum Erasure
    Registered Users Posts: 8,179 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    TheValeyard wrote: »
    I dont get it.


    Take the knee, grand.

    Palestinian flags, no.

    Rainbow flag, no?
    Rainbow armband, that's ok

    Poppy emblem, not sure about that one, think it's ok if it's on a black armband, but I might be wrong


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    #73
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Quantum Erasure wrote: »
    Rainbow armband, that's ok

    Poppy emblem, not sure about that one, think it's ok if it's on a black armband, but I might be wrong

    Not wearing a poppy. Not ok.

    That’s the part of the year when Britain goes a bit fascist.


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    #74
    The DayDream
    Registered Users Posts: 508 ✭✭✭The DayDream


    It's not 'targeting' Hungary, it's making their views on the issue known. The issue is being targeted not the country or team. It's also pride month so organizations of all sorts are making a point to support the LGBT peeps.


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    #75
    ArthurDayne
    Registered Users Posts: 1,561 ✭✭✭ArthurDayne


    TheValeyard wrote: »
    I dont get it.


    Take the knee, grand.

    Palestinian flags, no.

    Rainbow flag, no?

    Where's the booklet to explain which cause is socially acceptable to UEFA or not? Or is it all about money.

    But regardless, this was definitely a political move by the Munich Mayor. So I can see why they said no, but taking the knee is related to BLM which is totally political and ideological. So where's the line?

    I don’t think it’s as complicated as you’re portraying it though. The Munich decision appears to be borne out of the fact that the rainbow colours were intended to be a protest against a specific political action by the Hungarian State. The knee gesture isn’t really as pointed as that — it’s a protest against a more general concept and it’s not political (despite the very enthusiastic determination in certain quarters to portray it as such).

    By way of contrast, I’m not sure if UEFA would have had any major problem with the stadium being lit up in rainbow colours if it had have been different teams and the intention just to promote ‘Pride’ etc more generally. I think in this case it’s the specificity that has attracted censure.


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    #76
    embraer170
    Registered Users Posts: 2,421 ✭✭✭embraer170


    Turning a blind eye to discrimination is not being neutral, it is facilitating that injustice.

    Something we should have learned from history but is quickly forgotten.


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    #77
    Quantum Erasure
    Registered Users Posts: 8,179 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    Did we ever get an answer as to why the Irish team didn't kneel before their friendly against Andorra a couple weeks ago, but did against Hungary a few days later?


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    #78
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 24,824 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    embraer170 wrote: »
    Turning a blind eye to discrimination is not being neutral, it is facilitating that injustice.

    Something we should have learned from history but is quickly forgotten.

    I or my fellow participants didn’t take a knee before our gym class this morning... did I and the rest of us facilitate discrimination or facilitate injustice...? Did we turn a blind eye to it ? No, we didn’t, we just turned up, used the 45 minutes to work on and improve our health and fitness and left..

    If the knee thing continues, what happens if a charity against sexual violence want a gesture on their behalf, complete with a couple of minutes silence or applause, or a mental health charity get notions they should be included...you’ll have players on the pitch 20 minutes before kickoff, indulging in various rituals to represent and appease every cause in the universe.... there has to come a time where ‘ ENOUGH ‘... it’s a sporting event, let people get on with preparing for it...enjoying it without a gun being put to their heads to indulge in rituals...


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    #79
    McGinniesta
    Registered Users Posts: 4,402 ✭✭✭McGinniesta


    fvp4 wrote: »
    Because Qatar is worse than Hungary. Much worse. If they don’t this is just performative nonsense.

    Of course it's performative nonsense.


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    #80
    McGinniesta
    Registered Users Posts: 4,402 ✭✭✭McGinniesta


    embraer170 wrote: »
    Turning a blind eye to discrimination is not being neutral, it is facilitating that injustice.

    Something we should have learned from history but is quickly forgotten.

    Turning a blind eye to discrimination is one thing.

    Can you explain how putting different colour lights on the wall of a stadium in Munich can be considered anything other than a meaningless gesture that will achieve nothing.


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    #81
    McGinniesta
    Registered Users Posts: 4,402 ✭✭✭McGinniesta


    Quantum Erasure wrote: »
    Did we ever get an answer as to why the Irish team didn't kneel before their friendly against Andorra a couple weeks ago, but did against Hungary a few days later?

    More importantly, who cares?


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    #82
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,281 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Keep politics out of sport generally translates as keep your politics out of my sport

    The poppy loving military fly by lovers are usually the first to demand politics out of sport


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    #83
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    What head of state famously snubbed Jesse Owens after his Olympic medal wins?



    Franklin D. Roosevelt
    Saw a film called Race about Jesse. Even when he was going into a hotel for his official celebratory dinner, he was stopped at the entrance and had to go in through the back door. It was gobsmacking. And it wasn't anywhere the south. It was DC or NYC or Chicago. It showed too the irony of how he didn't experience any of that sh1t in the Olympic village... in nazi Germany. As in there were no separate dorms, dining areas for blacks and whites. Of course it was a protected space and not like the rest of the city, but a setup like that in the US would have been segregated.
    Nozebleed wrote: »
    sorry that my heterosexuality is a problem for you guys.
    Who has a problem with your heterosexuality? Nobody gets persecuted for being heterosexual.


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    #84
    Quantum Erasure
    Registered Users Posts: 8,179 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    McGinniesta wrote: »
    More importantly, who cares?

    Well, the players should, for one, and us as the nation they are representing.


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    #85
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,868 ✭✭✭Christy42


    McGinniesta wrote: »
    Turning a blind eye to discrimination is one thing.

    Can you explain how putting different colour lights on the wall of a stadium in Munich can be considered anything other than a meaningless gesture that will achieve nothing.

    Why are Hungary complaining if it will achieve nothing? You would think they would be happy to let others get distracted by meaningless gestures and get on with it.


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    #86
    sprucemoose
    Registered Users Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    Strumms wrote: »
    I or my fellow participants didn’t take a knee before our gym class this morning... did I and the rest of us facilitate discrimination or facilitate injustice...?

    who have the TV rights to your class, rte or virgin? are ye still at a reduced capacity for spectators or is it back at full?


    false equivalencies dont help your argument


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    #87
    starkid
    Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    Sand wrote: »
    If you follow down that road, where does it end? At what point does UEFA and FIFA stop being a neutral sporting organisation and become a political NGO which will be treated as such by governments? Nobody is stopping anyone from protesting if that is what they want to do. But UEFA/FIFA aren't a political party.

    As for the Nazi Germany stuff, it really doesn't sound that dramatic: "The law prohibits sharing any content portraying homosexuality or sex reassignment to children under 18 in school sex education programs, films and advertisements." The school curriculum of Hungary isnt a human rights issue.

    jesus the latter part is super ignorant. think on it a second. young people struggling with identity issues can't get support. i know a young 12 year old struggling with this here, with huge anxiety issues. she wouldn't get that support needed if she was in Hungary. and thats experts in HUngary saying that, not me. Amnesty International’s Hungarian chapter, which has spearheaded protests against the plans, described the passing of the law as a “dark day for LGBTI rights and for Hungary”.

    “Like the infamous Russian ‘propaganda law’, this new legislation will further stigmatise LGBTI people and their allies,” said Amnesty International’s director in Hungary, Dávid Vig, commenting on a series of amendments that were added last week to a law targeting child abuse.

    “Tagging these amendments to a bill that seeks to crack down on child abuse appears to be a deliberate attempt by the Hungarian government to conflate paedophilia with LGBTI people.”

    András Léderer, at the Hungarian Helsinki Committee Europe, said: “This is a blanket approval to treat LGBT people with discrimination, with hatred. The idea that being gay poses a risk in itself to people under 18 is such a horrible vicious concept … It will have tragic effects on the mental wellbeing of young LGBT people.”
    it 100 per cent is a human rights issue ffs. don't be so ignorant.

    it just shows what a mess Qatar will be. i'd imagine alot of stuff will come to a head when it finally dawns on people what an injustice that was, awarding it to such a vile culture.

    i hope they go ahead and do the colors regardless. would be a really important gesture.


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    #88
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users Posts: 12,194 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    McGinniesta wrote: »

    Can you explain how putting different colour lights on the wall of a stadium in Munich can be considered anything other than a meaningless gesture that will achieve nothing.
    Would the same apply here :

    Can you explain how putting green coloured lights on buildings all over the world on 17th March every year can be considered anything other than a meaningless gesture that will achieve nothing

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



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    #89
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,481 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    starkid wrote: »
    jesus the latter part is super ignorant. think on it a second. young people struggling with identity issues can't get support. i know a young 12 year old struggling with this here, with huge anxiety issues.

    That's your opinion. There are a lot people out there who find this stuff extremely dangerous to be promoted to children either directly or indirectly.

    How did such children get on up until now?

    The way you guys go on children have been somehow oppressed and damaged by having this kept from them what ever you define 'this' as being.

    I'll just be honest with you - the vast vast majority of people know full well that isn't true.

    That law in Hungary incidentally, on the face of it, looks very reasonable to me and protective of children not the other way around


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    #90
    Dick Turnip
    Registered Users Posts: 982 ✭✭✭Dick Turnip


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    That's your opinion. There are a lot people out there who find this stuff extremely dangerous to be promoted to children either directly or indirectly

    How did such children get on up until now?

    The way you guys go on children have been somehow oppressed and damaged by having this kept from them what ever you to define 'this' as being.

    What exactly is "this stuff" you speak of?

    This law is far more reaching than just stopping kids transition or whatever it is that you appear to be ok with.

    This law bans anything that the government deem "promotes" homosexuality to under 18s. So teachers for example may not be able to say to a class that being gay is ok, that being in a gay relationship is ok.

    LGBT youth are ~2x as likely to attempt suicide as heterosexual youth are.

    You honestly think that a 16 year old in Hungary questioning their sexuality won't be adversely affected by this law?


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    #91
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,148 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    That's your opinion. There are a lot people out there who find this stuff extremely dangerous to be promoted to children

    Christ on a bike!

    This is the oldest trick in the homophobes book. As if the LBGT community are some sort of shadowy perverted organisation who are out to recruit your kids, kids who would not be gay of a Monday but suddenly be gay of a Tuesday because the idea of being gay was "promoted" to them.

    This isn't how it works. Gay adults were once gay kids. these kids need to learn at a young age that they're sexual orientation is perfectly fine and it is accepted everywhere. Being gay is no more a choice than your decision to be straight.

    Promotion of gay rights is extremely important. It might even help some of the homophobes come to terms with those weird feelings they have now and again about their mate Terry.


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