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Beneficiary in Will refusing to give date of birth

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135

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    #62
    jd
    Registered Users Posts: 5,687 ✭✭✭jd


    Geuze wrote: »
    OP is executor, can't walk away.
    I could have phrased it a bit better - unless OP is a beneficiary they should see if they can renounce their position as executor


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    #63
    Andrea B.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Andrea B.


    coylemj wrote: »
    Why would they?
    Sorry. I thought there was a reasonable time limit to apply for probate.
    There is though (12 months?) on behalf of beneficiaries I read just now.


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    #64
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,167 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Andrea B. wrote: »
    Sorry. I thought there was a reasonable time limit to apply for probate.
    There is though (12 months?) on behalf of beneficiaries I read just now.

    Beneficiaries don't apply for probate. The executor does.


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    #65
    Andrea B.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Andrea B.


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    Beneficiaries don't apply for probate. The executor does.
    Sorry, was not clear.
    I meant that if executor drags past 12 months to apply, then beneficiaries can ask probate office to step in.


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    #66
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,167 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Andrea B. wrote: »
    Sorry, was not clear.
    I meant that if executor drags past 12 months to apply, then beneficiaries can ask probate office to step in.

    The beneficiaries are hardly in a position to complain if it is their own behaviour which is holding things up.
    In the case of someone born before 1958 in ireland it is very easy find the date of birth.
    https://www.familysearch.org/search/


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    #67
    stopthevoting
    Registered Users Posts: 269 ✭✭stopthevoting


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    In the case of someone born before 1958 in ireland it is very easy find the date of birth.
    https://www.familysearch.org/search/
    The person was born in the 1980s according to a post on the first page.


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    #68
    Billgirlylegs
    Registered Users Posts: 494 ✭✭Billgirlylegs


    OP has been nominated to act "in lieu" of the person who owns the assets or money. Their responsibility is to execute the instructions in The Will, and there is a requirement under Anti-Money Laundering Legislation to confirm details of The Executor and then the beneficiaries. That is why the DOB is sought.

    I think the "PPSN" issue is irrelevant, and someone in The Probate Office has stuck it on the form because it simplifies their job.

    I think The Revenue Commissioners have fallen into the "Mandatory PPSN " rabbit hole that Regina Doherty invented a few years ago.
    Unless there is legislation to stipulate otherwise, PPSN is not required, mandatory or necessary (to mis-quote the ex minister) to either execute the terms of a will, or to receive funds as a beneficiary
    (what happens if either is not a resident / citizen of this country??)

    As there is an issue, and someone is playing games,OP needs to be very careful and consider the next move carefully.
    He /she can renounce the role at any time (and walk away if necessary)


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    #69
    Bicyclette
    Registered Users Posts: 378 ✭✭Bicyclette


    Billgirlylegs wrote: »
    OP has been nominated to act "in lieu" of the person who owns the assets or money. Their responsibility is to execute the instructions in The Will, and there is a requirement under Anti-Money Laundering Legislation to confirm details of The Executor and then the beneficiaries. That is why the DOB is sought.

    I think the "PPSN" issue is irrelevant, and someone in The Probate Office has stuck it on the form because it simplifies their job.

    I think The Revenue Commissioners have fallen into the "Mandatory PPSN " rabbit hole that Regina Doherty invented a few years ago.
    Unless there is legislation to stipulate otherwise, PPSN is not required, mandatory or necessary (to mis-quote the ex minister) to either execute the terms of a will, or to receive funds as a beneficiary
    (what happens if either is not a resident / citizen of this country??)

    As there is an issue, and someone is playing games,OP needs to be very careful and consider the next move carefully.
    He /she can renounce the role at any time (and walk away if necessary)

    PPSNs are required because in many cases there is CAT payable. A date of birth is required to confirm that the PPSN is correct and that the money is being allocated correctly. Non-residents or people without PPSNs are allocated PPSNs prior to distribution of assets.


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    #70
    GerardKeating
    Registered Users Posts: 7,552 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    Redsquigy wrote: »
    no, date of birth also required. A right pain this is. since September 2020 new rules on form that has to be submitted to Revenue in order to get acknowledgment. it is then submitted to probate office.

    Have they given you the PPN ?

    I assume you tried the other beneficiaries, if any of them are related to your problem beneficiaries, they might know the dob. Are the beneficiaries parents still alive ?


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    #71
    athlone573
    Registered Users Posts: 726 ✭✭✭athlone573


    Is there a paper and ink version of the form that you can send along with a note explaining the situation?


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    #72
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,167 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    stopthevoting wrote: »
    The person was born in the 1980s according to a post on the first page.

    If so it should be easy to get an approximate age. There will be people around who remember the person at school. A search in the GRO will get the exact date very quickly.


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    #73
    Redsquigy
    Registered Users Posts: 176 ✭✭Redsquigy


    athlone573 wrote: »
    Is there a paper and ink version of the form that you can send along with a note explaining the situation?

    form is done on line and is submitted to revenue before it goes to probate office


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    #74
    athlone573
    Registered Users Posts: 726 ✭✭✭athlone573


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    If so it should be easy to get an approximate age. There will be people around who remember the person at school. A search in the GRO will get the exact date very quickly.

    Feck that inspector clouseau stuff,
    reasonable best efforts is all anyone could expect.


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    #75
    athlone573
    Registered Users Posts: 726 ✭✭✭athlone573


    Redsquigy wrote: »
    form is done on line and is submitted to revenue before it goes to probate office

    Is there not some way of assisting people who are not computer literate?


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    #76
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,362 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    athlone573 wrote: »
    Is there not some way of assisting people who are not computer literate?

    As executor, the OP is using the services of a solicitor so the forms will ultimately be submitted by the solicitor.

    To the question you ask, I suspect that if someone approaches the Probate Office to do personal probate and says they are not computer literate, they'd be told to use a solicitor. I've done personal probate and IMHO, you'd have no business attempting it if you can't do a bit of Word and Excel or equivalent.


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    #77
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,366 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    Says who though? This is the legal section so Im curious as to what legislation covers this. GDPR states that it must be a reasonable request. Considering the existance of a PPS number in addition to a name, why do they need DOB?
    A PPS entered incorrectly can easily be identified when crisis referenced with a DOB


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    #78
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,167 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    ted1 wrote: »
    A PPS entered incorrectly can easily be identified when crisis referenced with a DOB

    Many PPS are not linked to a DOB.


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    #79
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,167 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    athlone573 wrote: »
    Feck that inspector clouseau stuff,
    reasonable best efforts is all anyone could expect.

    Typical civil service answer. Do something and then start hand-wringing. The OP wants to solve his problem not find an excuse. An excuse for not doing something is not as good as doing it (in the real world).


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    #80
    beachhead
    Registered Users Posts: 2,332 ✭✭✭beachhead


    GerardKeating wrote: »
    Thought they only wanted PPS ?

    The personal details must match:PPPS no,name,address and DOB.Any inheritence entitlement will be dependent on the person's tax status.Age will be relevant i.e. ubder employment age or over retirement age.Remember you cannot escape death and taxes no matter.


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    #81
    Jerry Attrick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 243 ✭✭Jerry Attrick


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    Many PPS are not linked to a DOB.

    Given that the person involved was born in the 1980's it's reasonable to assume that their parents would have claimed child allowance for them, in which case their PPSN would be linked to their date of birth in Social Welfare's systems.

    In a novel or TV series the OP would consult a Private Investigator who, when his palm was crossed with silver, would be able to use his sources to provide the required information. However, as this would probably be illegal, I wouldn't for an instant suggest such a course of action in the real world.


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    #82
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,167 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Jerry Attrick wrote: »
    Given that the person involved was born in the 1980's it's reasonable to assume that their parents would have claimed child allowance for them, in which case their PPSN would be linked to their date of birth in Social Welfare's systems.

    .

    PPS numbers didn't exist in the 1980s. It is quite likely the person has a PPS and date of birth but the PPS number is validated by reference to the check character at the end. Once the o/p has a date of birth he can reverse engineer a PPSN.


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    #83
    GerardKeating
    Registered Users Posts: 7,552 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    Once the o/p has a date of birth he can reverse engineer a PPSN.

    Is it permitted to ask how to do this, just interested seeing it my PPSN could be done this way?

    And would it work both days, could one determine the dob from the PPSN?


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    #84
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,167 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    GerardKeating wrote: »
    Is it permitted to ask how to do this, just interested seeing it my PPSN could be done this way?

    And would it work both days, could one determine the dob from the PPSN?

    It can't be done. All that can be done is to produce a PPS which will go through the validation.


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    #85
    athlone573
    Registered Users Posts: 726 ✭✭✭athlone573


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    Typical civil service answer. Do something and then start hand-wringing. The OP wants to solve his problem not find an excuse. An excuse for not doing something is not as good as doing it (in the real world).

    It is the civil service you are dealing with

    Nefarious methods of sourcing personal data may not be compliant with GDPR or other laws

    I understand that the only thing keeping the OP in the executor role is their conscientiousness in fulfilling the wishes of the deceased and if they are running into difficulties why wouldn't they leave it to the professionals.


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    #86
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,167 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    athlone573 wrote: »
    It is the civil service you are dealing with

    Nefarious methods of sourcing personal data may not be compliant with GDPR or other laws

    I understand that the only thing keeping the OP in the executor role is their conscientiousness in fulfilling the wishes of the deceased and if they are running into difficulties why wouldn't they leave it to the professionals.

    A birth cert is a public document. The birth registers are public documents. There is nothing nefarious about looking at a public register. All I suggested was a means of narrowing the search space to speed up the process. If I know someone was born in a particular year I can search that years register. Better again if I know the quarter.
    Someone born in the 1980s would have been at school in the 1990s. It should be a simple process to find out when they started secondary school, sat the leaving cert etc. They may have played on under age football teams. The o/p could easily find the general age. He knows that the birth was in the 1980s. Even if he had to start with 1980 and check up to 1989 he would get the date of birth.


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    #87
    athlone573
    Registered Users Posts: 726 ✭✭✭athlone573


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    A birth cert is a public document. The birth registers are public documents. There is nothing nefarious about looking at a public register. All I suggested was a means of narrowing the search space to speed up the process. If I know someone was born in a particular year I can search that years register. Better again if I know the quarter.
    Someone born in the 1980s would have been at school in the 1990s. It should be a simple process to find out when they started secondary school, sat the leaving cert etc. They may have played on under age football teams. The o/p could easily find the general age. He knows that the birth was in the 1980s. Even if he had to start with 1980 and check up to 1989 he would get the date of birth.

    Fair enough

    Personally I wouldn't go rummaging around in the register office.


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    #88
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,167 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    athlone573 wrote: »
    Fair enough

    Personally I wouldn't go rummaging around in the register office.

    Yes, but you are lazy.


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    #89
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,278 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    PPS numbers didn't exist in the 1980s. It is quite likely the person has a PPS and date of birth but the PPS number is validated by reference to the check character at the end. Once the o/p has a date of birth he can reverse engineer a PPSN.
    GerardKeating wrote: »
    Is it permitted to ask how to do this, just interested seeing it my PPSN could be done this way?

    And would it work both days, could one determine the dob from the PPSN?
    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    It can't be done. All that can be done is to produce a PPS which will go through the validation.

    can you clarify what it is that can't be done? are you still saying that the OP can reverse engineer a PPSN from a date of birth?


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    #90
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,167 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    can you clarify what it is that can't be done? are you still saying that the OP can reverse engineer a PPSN from a date of birth?

    I never said that in the first place.


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    #91
    Robbo
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,560 Mod ✭✭✭✭Robbo


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    PPS numbers didn't exist in the 1980s. It is quite likely the person has a PPS and date of birth but the PPS number is validated by reference to the check character at the end. Once the o/p has a date of birth he can reverse engineer a PPSN.
    PPS numbers may not have existed in the 1980s but their predecessors, RSI numbers did and hence we have situations where a PPS number in and of itself can be unreliable to this day.

    You have the situations where a wife was issued with her husband's RSI/PPS number with a "W" tacked onto the end. Then you have the errors and duplication that crept in when the PPS numbers (and corresponding white plastic Social Services Card) were rolled out in the late 90s. If you did business with the State bilingually back then, chances are you were issued 2 cards with 2 different PPS numbers.


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