Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

Gary kk · 16-06-2021 08:52PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

Very entertaining but ultimately pointless.

Light Combat Aircraft is a contradiction in terms, unless you are duelling with other LCA types or planning to destroy armour and civilian targets on the ground, neither of which we will be.

We need interceptors. These aren't.

Counter to believe I am not trolling but to intercept what. I just don't understand what the purpose is like why a pure fighter. Define the role you think it will be need for.

Gary kk · 16-06-2021 08:55PM

sparky42 wrote: »

As I’ve said, if there is ever a purchase of fighter jets it’s a once in a lifetime, 40 years before replacement, hence the idea of buying something limited makes zero sense to me. Trying to buy something that just fills the current need is pointless, it’s like how limited the P60s are compared to pretty much any Western OPV because we just wanted it for West Coast operations.

Ok sorry just read this now yeah that is starting to make more sense to me now. How much are the Saab or the Rafael

sparky42 · 16-06-2021 09:13PM

Gary kk wrote: »

Ok sorry just read this now yeah that is starting to make more sense to me now. How much are the Saab or the Rafael

Depends on what the package is, there’s the areas of offsets (which we don’t do of course), weapons packages, spares. I mean just look at the difference on the Casa 295s, there’s the unit price and then the throughlife costs and spares which meant we paid a lot more than just the units.

Larbre34 · 16-06-2021 09:45PM

Gary kk wrote: »

Counter to believe I am not trolling but to intercept what. I just don't understand what the purpose is like why a pure fighter. Define the role you think it will be need for.

The same role any interceptor or combat air patrol aircraft is needed for in peacetime.

To be tasked to and to intercept any suspicious or irresponsible aircraft in our area of responsibility at high speed,

This includes, but is not limited to; Russian reconnaissance aircraft operating in civilian air corridors without transponders, civilian airliners that have lost communications and/or whose intentions may be uncertain, to assist and inspect any aircraft reporting damage or a loss of control, to intercept and escort suspected criminal aircraft or drones involved in drug or human trafficking, or any other type of smuggling, to assist the subsonic Maritime Patrol Aircraft in the exercise of its tasks in any manner requested, including any future counter-submarine activity in territorial waters.

Basically, the stuff that modern sovereign nations do routinely all over the World.

Flinty997 · 16-06-2021 10:09PM

Gary kk wrote: »

Not sure how much a fighter is but from what I can tell around 25million per aircraft for the TA 50

"...Qatar signed a deal for 24 Rafale fighters and associated weaponry and training, worth approximately $7 billion, in May 2015....

That's before you get into the associated costs like infrastructure.

If you look at recent deals you start to get an appreciation of the costs involved in these deals.

Can't find modern reports for running costs of all the different types compared.

https://stratpost.com/gripen-operational-cost-lowest-of-all-western-fighters-janes/

sparky42 · 16-06-2021 10:17PM

Flinty997 wrote: »

"...Qatar signed a deal for 24 Rafale fighters and associated weaponry and training, worth approximately $7 billion, in May 2015....

That's before you get into the associated costs like infrastructure.

If you look at recent deals you start to get an appreciation of the costs involved in these deals.

Can't find modern reports for running costs of all the different types compared.

https://stratpost.com/gripen-operational-cost-lowest-of-all-western-fighters-janes/

Ignore deals to the Arab countries, there’s plenty of “other” in that as it’s mainly buying patronage (particularly given the capabilities and performance of many of the Arab nations).

The Croatian deal for 12 second hand Rafales, weapons, spares was only 1.2 billion. The Greek deal for a mixture of new and second hand with weapons (including ones we wouldn’t be buying) and spares was 2.5 billion. These are the most recent euro deals.

Flinty997 · 16-06-2021 11:06PM

sparky42 wrote: »

Ignore deals to the Arab countries, there’s plenty of “other” in that as it’s mainly buying patronage (particularly given the capabilities and performance of many of the Arab nations).

The Croatian deal for 12 second hand Rafales, weapons, spares was only 1.2 billion. The Greek deal for a mixture of new and second hand with weapons (including ones we wouldn’t be buying) and spares was 2.5 billion. These are the most recent euro deals.

I think it's a little more than patronage. That includes training and they are new build and decent spec. They are going from 9 fighters to 96. You'd think that would drive down the cost considerably. Especially as they are buying 3 types for all sorts of operational reasons. Not simply patronage.

Ireland wants 16, and have we to have add at the cost of infrastructure to facilitate operations, training etc. Well over the 1 billion and rising. If you think grand designs is bad military programmes are many times worse.

The opinion here is the money will simply just be found and there will be no objections. Hard to argue against that optimism.

sparky42 · 16-06-2021 11:24PM

Flinty997 wrote: »

I think it's a little more than patronage. That includes training and they are new build and decent spec. They are going from 9 fighters to 96. You'd think that would drive down the cost considerably. Especially as they are buying 3 types for all sorts of operational reasons. Not simply patronage.

Ireland wants 16, and have we to have add at the cost of infrastructure to facilitate operations, training etc. Well over the 1 billion and rising. If you think grand designs is bad military programmes are many times worse.

The opinion here is the money will simply just be found and there will be no objections. Hard to argue against that optimism.

The multiple buying is exactly patronage, they are hedging their bets in case one of the nations stops supporting them at some point in the future, and the multiple buy is irrelevant to the topic, just the Rafale costs, and like I said we have 2 other more recent European deals for planes, weapons, spares, training that come in at lower, also you do get that the costs aren't necessarily going to be all in one year right?

Flinty997 · 16-06-2021 11:52PM

Only that you've more bargaining power the bigger the
deal.

Why would all the costs be in one year. That makes no sense.

Larbre34 · 17-06-2021 01:00AM

The cost to the Government would be say 2 billion euro over 5 to 10 years, spread out by the tender phase, deposits, gradual delivery and construction of elements like the primary radar system and IT, new hangars, recruitment and overseas type specific training of aircrew and ground crew, delivery of first airframes etc

Only recently the DoD tendered for technical services to advise on the specification for the new Multirole Vessel and NS flagship. Hopefully some day soon we'll see similar activity beginning for a comprehensive air defence system.

Flinty997 · 17-06-2021 08:08AM

...and without blinking an eye we are at 2 billion....

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/state-would-need-16-fighter-jets-for-full-air-defence-capability-expert-says-1.4184846

...Such a jet programme would likely cost well in excess of €1 billion....

...“People say we should have a 24/7 response. I’m just trying to bring reality to it. Once you escalate to a 24/7 service the numbers of personnel and resources go off the Richter scale.”...

Gary kk · 17-06-2021 08:26AM

I assume when you said 40 years you meant new fighters. I guess the second hand ones could be replaced after 15 years or so would that be about right time span for upgrading the fighters not replace the original new ones.

Flinty997 · 17-06-2021 08:50AM

Gary kk wrote: »

I assume when you said 40 years you meant new fighters. I guess the second hand ones could be replaced after 15 years or so would that be about right time span for upgrading the fighters not replace the original new ones.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a30782932/air-force-retire-old-planes/

"...The average age of Air Force aircraft, as a recent Heritage Foundation report pointed out, is 28 years..."

Whats making aircraft obsolete faster these days is software being obsolete or being too expensive to upgrade. The Gripen has an advantage here due to the modular approach.

"....But Saab believes one of the biggest advances with the Gripen E comes through its use of an all-new integrated modular avionics system, which splits flight-critical and tactical management software. It says the latter’s software, hardware and algorithms can be rapidly changed – like apps on a smartphone – to keep pace with evolved operational requirements or technological advances in computing over the life of the type’s use..."

https://www.flightglobal.com/analysis-how-saab-broke-the-mould-with-evolved-gripen-e/120655.article

Whereas they are retiring the early typhoons early...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.janes.com/amp/uk-defence-command-paper-raf-to-axe-older-typhoons/ZnlJK3dHVU9mZ28xajRJVkc5dVI5VFp1cVMwPQ2

"....While these earlier jets are limited to the air defence role due primarily to software limitations..."

Gary kk · 17-06-2021 08:51AM

Larbre34 wrote: »

The same role any interceptor or combat air patrol aircraft is needed for in peacetime.

To be tasked to and to intercept any suspicious or irresponsible aircraft in our area of responsibility at high speed,

This includes, but is not limited to; Russian reconnaissance aircraft operating in civilian air corridors without transponders, civilian airliners that have lost communications and/or whose intentions may be uncertain, to assist and inspect any aircraft reporting damage or a loss of control, to intercept and escort suspected criminal aircraft or drones involved in drug or human trafficking, or any other type of smuggling, to assist the subsonic Maritime Patrol Aircraft in the exercise of its tasks in any manner requested, including any future counter-submarine activity in territorial waters.

Basically, the stuff that modern sovereign nations do routinely all over the World.

Then I think we should to go for a Typhoon it's has slightly better air to air capabilities over the F35. I mean the F22 might not be a bad option either. Haven't compared F22 to Typhoon yet sorry

This could also be the worst timed post ever ; )

I won't personally be comparing .

Flinty997 · 17-06-2021 08:58AM

Gary kk wrote: »

Then I think we should to go for a Typhoon it's has slightly better air to air capabilities over the F35. I mean the F22 might not be a bad option either. Haven't compared F22 to Typhoon yet sorry

This could also be the worst timed post ever ; )

They don't export the F22. You can't buy them. Also the F22 and the F35 are the most expensive fighters to buy and run. Even the US is looking at something cheaper.

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/air-force-admits-f-35-fighter-jet-costs-too-much-ncna1259781

Not that budget is a problem for Ireland.

Gary kk · 17-06-2021 09:05AM

Flinty997 wrote: »

They don't export the F22. You can't buy them. Also the F22 and the F35 are the most expensive fighters to buy and run. Even the US is looking at something cheaper.

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/air-force-admits-f-35-fighter-jet-costs-too-much-ncna1259781

Not that budget is a problem for Ireland.

Cheers you probably saved me a good twenty mins on YouTube looking at "AI" doc on comparison ; )

Yeah I thought any budget constraints where gone.

Lorddrakul · 17-06-2021 09:06AM

This morning, the 17 of June, Pat Kenny on Newstalk will be talking about what it will take the properly address Irish airspace.

Should be interesting.

Gary kk · 17-06-2021 10:42AM

Manic Moran wrote: »

May I attack this from the other direction?

Why does ireland have 8x PC-9s, at, apparently an annual cost of 1million each? What purpose do they serve?

Light strike? Not likely. I don't think anyone can envision a situation where there is sufficient of an insurgency in Ireland to require it, and the aircraft wouldn't last an hour in anything more conventional. One might make an argument for using the things for air support to Irish troops on deployment, but the history indicates a distinct lack of desire to send aircraft on such missions. So that's not it.

Training of forward air controllers? Probably cheaper and easier to just send a few folks to the Joint Fires Course in Vegas every year. More chance that on some UN mission they'd get a US military aircraft on the radio and not an Irish one anyway. If you want to maintain a bit of proficiency, use a simulator. We use them for fires training here for that purpose.

Air defense? Yeah, no.

Training of pilots of other aircraft like the PC-12, CASA? You don't need armed (or unarmed) PC-9s for that. Look at the list of aircraft a pilot goes through to fly 737s or A321s at an airline. Much cheaper.

The only thing which makes sense to me is to train pilots for operation of front-line combat aircraft. Which means that when the PC-9s were bought, it was with the intent and knowledge that there would be the purchase of said aircraft. (Either that, or folks were just wasting money).
So, the question is, if it's a given that there is an intent to spend the money, it's not a question of "if it's too much money". That question has already been answered. The question is "What is the trigger at which point the future aircraft will be purchased?" WW3 might be too late and I doubt was in the planning thinking.

I have thought on this I think maybe it was unexpected bills that has slowed the process more so that anything. Irish water is running 7billion euro the last checked then and there is children's hospital no one knows the final cost on that. Both had to be done but they both ran way over budget. Given Ireland's size and already significant debit I can easily see how certain plans may have been pushed to side.

Lorddrakul · 17-06-2021 11:38AM

Very disappointing, while the interviewee was clearly knowledgeable, light combat aircraft was as close a he got to actually defining what would be a possible solution to an Irish capability to police its own airspace.

Light combat aircraft would be the likes of the Hawk, L-39, TA-50, et al.

Were a Tu-160, or an SU-34, to take a stroll through Irish airspace, I'm not sure what good that class of aircraft would be.

Just looking at it, the KAI TA-50 might be quick enough, but with a service ceiling of 48k ft, it would struggle to get high enough. But even then, at only Mach 1.5, both of these aircraft could hitch up their skirts and high tail it beyond.

TA-50s would catch the Bears, but the Flankers and White Swans would disappear into the Atlantic horizon.

Lorddrakul · 17-06-2021 11:55AM

Dohvolle wrote: »

Kevin used to be in the Silver Swallows back in the day. A fine pilot.
The key point joe public could get from listening is the following:
Everyone else does it except us

its bloody dangerous that we don't

it will cost us, but given our past history, we will get great VFM

Anything is better than our current capability, which equates to looking through binos at errant aircraft

At least we are having the discussion.

This is all well observed and finely reasoned, but as a plane nerd I wanted to hear him say we need to buy Gripens in a range of colours.

Larbre34 · 17-06-2021 01:06PM

Dohvolle wrote: »

It could become part of the children's art competition. Design tailfin art!

It's a nice idea, but really all we need is a Gripen wrapped in a full body tricolour decal to challenge the new Union Flag Typhoon in mock dogfights over the Irish Sea.

All joking aside though, how *HOW* did the irony of painting a Eurofighter F2 in a Union Flag not occur to them?

Markcheese · 17-06-2021 02:55PM

Each Beckett class was about 60 million (ish ) ? , and has zero defence capability - ( policing ,fishery protection fair enough ) , and each ship has 2 crews of 40 / 50 people , plus the support staff back at base ... and a fairly considerable fuel burn . ..
We ,as a state pay this ,because it's deemed necessary ..
If we deem it necessary to get a few second hand grippens from Sweden ,and train up crews and support staff it'll be done - just not quickly ( which would be a problem if we suddenly need an air capability )

Stovepipe · 17-06-2021 04:07PM

The Navy ships don't have a full set of 2 crews per vessel so the seagoing personnel are run ragged and are leaving because they are knackered. In terms of how long it takes to get operational with fighters, Hungary gave itself 5 years to accept the Gripen, change over to Nato standards (for it's entire infrastructure from the ground up) and behaviour and declare themselves operationally ready to Nato standards. That was a skilled fast jet operator, with hundreds of competent air and ground crew and a deep corporate body of experience. So,they soon had the aircraft operating at a basic level but it took the full five years and they still weren't fully ready but they were mostly there. So,if we had to start operating fighters in the near future, we would have to start preparing for it at least a year before the first one arrived, just to get training started and equipment bought and the usable airfields adapted to fighter operations and storage for weapons built and a million other things beside.
You'd also have to explain to the population around Baldonnel that the sound of afterburners will have to be tolerated....

Larbre34 · 17-06-2021 04:11PM

Not really. A fast jet operation would be unsuitable for Baldonnell for lots of reasons, not just for local noise issues, but to go on a QRA task off the west coast it would be impossible to have supersonic aircraft traversing the island and going high to mitigate that would be too time and fuel consuming.

As we've been saying here and Kevin Byrne echoed in his interview, Shannon would be the place for a co-located air base to send aircraft out over the ocean at speed.

Gary kk · 17-06-2021 04:16PM

I would think Shannon would become the main stay of any jet. It's probably the most likely place any other country would bomb first. Given its role for Transatlantic travel. But unlikely event will hopefully never happen

Sorry took five mins to type the above.

Larbre34 · 17-06-2021 04:34PM

Gary kk wrote: »

It's probably the most likely place any other country would bomb first. Given its role for Transatlantic travel.

Do you even understand the conversation that's going on here?

This has nothing to do with any sort of wartime scenario. We are talking about the logistics and apparatus behind a peacetime air defence capability for this State. Is that much not clear by now?

Gary kk · 17-06-2021 04:43PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

Do you even understand the conversation that's going on here?

This has nothing to do with any sort of wartime scenario. We are talking about the logistics and apparatus behind a peacetime air defence capability for this State. Is that much not clear by now?

I thought that yesterday then someone said we need an air superiority jet not one that was escorting the odd bear or looking into the cockpit of a passenger plane.

Wait I will share down below.

Told we need aircraft that can last 40 years as well. Then told we might have to buy second hand. Maybe it's not me that getting thing confused but those that want an aircraft that far exceeds our needs and budget.

Gary kk · 17-06-2021 04:44PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

The same role any interceptor or combat air patrol aircraft is needed for in peacetime.

To be tasked to and to intercept any suspicious or irresponsible aircraft in our area of responsibility at high speed,

This includes, but is not limited to; Russian reconnaissance aircraft operating in civilian air corridors without transponders, civilian airliners that have lost communications and/or whose intentions may be uncertain, to assist and inspect any aircraft reporting damage or a loss of control, to intercept and escort suspected criminal aircraft or drones involved in drug or human trafficking, or any other type of smuggling, to assist the subsonic Maritime Patrol Aircraft in the exercise of its tasks in any manner requested, including any future counter-submarine activity in territorial waters.

Basically, the stuff that modern sovereign nations do routinely all over the World.

See this one ?

Gary kk · 17-06-2021 04:46PM

Get your own story straight and try not to be an ass .

Larbre34 · 17-06-2021 04:53PM

What? Are you being deliberately obtuse or is something else going on here?

None of what I described there are wartime tasks. That's literally just a long hand description of typical peacetime air defence capability!

Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

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