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The Greatest Achievement In GAA History

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    #152
    Rosita
    Registered Users Posts: 3,885 ✭✭✭Rosita


    blue note wrote: »

    I wonder how many non-dubs voted for Dublin. I wouldn't say too many.

    .

    Which highlights the meaninglessness of the poll.


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    #153
    Rosita
    Registered Users Posts: 3,885 ✭✭✭Rosita


    cms88 wrote: »
    But Dublin still play in more than one game in Leinster, some would say they don't play any but that's another story,

    ?

    Not entirely sure of the relevance of Dublin on the Leinster championship anyway.. Kerry won 9 out of the in the last decade in Munster and managed just one All Ireland so breezing through the province might be overrated.


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    #154
    cms88
    Registered Users Posts: 1,570 ✭✭✭cms88


    Kilkenny Hurlers 2000-2015 who won 4 all irelands in a row
    Tombo2001 wrote: »
    Your point is that Cork in the 2000s didnt face strong opposition, I would say the same is true of Dublin the mens game, there are 2 counties in the country that can take them on. Beat those - (or one of those if there is a Mayo Kerry semi-final) and they have won the all Ireland.

    A better comparison is Kerry's 4 in a row team.

    The structure of the LGFA championship when Cork were winning was that the top 4 teams got a bye to the QF stage.

    Which is very similar to Kerry in Munster - the played a dead rubber against Tipp or Clare in a munster semi-final - the they played Cork in the final, AI semi, AI final.

    Nobody is bring that issue up - why do it for the Cork LGFA team.

    1979 munster semi final score- Kerry 9-21, Clare 1-9. Wonder how often 9 goals have been scored in a championship match.

    Didn't say a thing about them not facing strong opposition did i? You're the one say that.

    Kerry in Munster is always brought up andd the time so don't know why you think it's not.


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    #155
    Ferm001
    Registered Users Posts: 126 ✭✭Ferm001


    Fermanagh getting within a kick of the ball of an all Ireland final in 2004.
    Beat by Mayo in semifinal replay, but jasus was a great expensive summer.


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    #156
    Tombo2001
    Registered Users Posts: 6,470 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    cms88 wrote: »
    This is often said but is it true? In reality how many counties are their in Ladies Football and Camogie? There are afaik no Provincial championships in Camogie and for a long time in Ladies football it was only Kerry and Cork in Munster.

    Ok -here is what you said....

    If your point isnt that that there was a lack of opposition/ weak opposition.....then what is your point.


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    #157
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users Posts: 18,240 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    Rosita wrote: »
    Which highlights the meaninglessness of the poll.

    It is a terrible poll thought up by a Cork person in five minutes.

    Plenty of other options were left out.

    One offs in football-

    Leitrim 1994, Offaly winning the AI in 1982, Donegal winning in 2012

    Eras - Crossmaglen in club football, Corofin in club football,

    Managerial intercounty eras no Boylan, no Micky Harte

    Hurling - those shock wins in the 90's that no one saw coming against the odds - Clare, Wexford. Not mentioned.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



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    #158
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users Posts: 18,240 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    Ferm001 wrote: »
    Fermanagh getting within a kick of the ball of an all Ireland final in 2004.
    Beat by Mayo in semifinal replay, but jasus was a great expensive summer.

    Fermanagh is a great call talk about making the best from what you have. Which is what management is about.
    .

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



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    #159
    cms88
    Registered Users Posts: 1,570 ✭✭✭cms88


    Kilkenny Hurlers 2000-2015 who won 4 all irelands in a row
    Tombo2001 wrote: »
    Ok -here is what you said....

    If your point isnt that that there was a lack of opposition/ weak opposition.....then what is your point.

    You're changing your point again. You're adding in opposition now as well when before it wasn't.

    The number of games needed to win a ladies football title for Cork was 3/4 at the most and some of those games were 20 plus point wins. My point is if you want to dismiss Kerry in Munster, something you've done, what's the difference with Cork?

    All of Kerry's All-Irelands are dismissed by some because the favorite they play in a ''Hurling Provice''.


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    #160
    Rosita
    Registered Users Posts: 3,885 ✭✭✭Rosita


    slegs wrote: »
    I 100% agree...for a small county and a tiny hurling population - Offaly 81/82 is a stunning achievement. On the football side they beat probably the greatest team ever also to win the All Ireland.

    For context
    Population of Offaly ~75-80k
    Population of Cork ~550k

    Okay to point out the achievement but not sure about the comparison with Cork. If Offaly had to play Kerry in their province in those years it's possible they might never have even reached an All Ireland final.

    Also, as I have said before, the link between population and success is unclear. For example, Dublin and Cork work from the same population (very blunt instrument) for both hurling and football with very different outcomes. So clearly population is not the discussion-ender you might think.


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    #161
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I would suggest the biggest achievements are not what a Dublin, Kerry, Cork or Kilkenny can achieve.

    The achievement of Clare winning the 92 Munster football
    Clare's 2 all Ireland's from obscurity in 95 and 98
    John O'Mahoney managerial record in taking Mayo to All Ireland Final for first time in 38 years, followed by Connacht for Lietrim and 2 All Irelands for Galway
    Mick O'Dwyer - 3 Leinster titles with Kildare and Laois
    Tyrone 3 AI's in 6 years


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    #162
    cms88
    Registered Users Posts: 1,570 ✭✭✭cms88


    Kilkenny Hurlers 2000-2015 who won 4 all irelands in a row
    Rosita wrote: »
    Okay to point out the achievement but not sure about the comparison with Cork. If Offaly had to play Kerry in their province in those years it's possible they might never have even reached an All Ireland final.

    Also, as I have said before, the link between population and success is unclear. For example, Dublin and Cork work from the same population (very blunt instrument) for both hurling and football with very different outcomes. So clearly population is not the discussion-ender you might think.

    Offaly was just an anomaly of sorts. Before 1960 there was little to no success and pretty much none since 2000. The likes of BNM and ESB coing in the 40s kept people around who would have otherwise left Ireland. It's no coincidence how many of the players from the early football success who were born in the late 40s/50s. While many of the hurling players from the 80s would have been born a bit later. Once those jobs stated to dry up there was little reason for lads to stay around.


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    #163
    Tombo2001
    Registered Users Posts: 6,470 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    cms88 wrote: »
    You're changing your point again. You're adding in opposition now as well when before it wasn't.

    The number of games needed to win a ladies football title for Cork was 3/4 at the most and some of those games were 20 plus point wins. My point is if you want to dismiss Kerry in Munster, something you've done, what's the difference with Cork?

    All of Kerry's All-Irelands are dismissed by some because the favorite they play in a ''Hurling Provice''.

    Ok lets leave it so, I dont know what we are debating.


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    #164
    Tombo2001
    Registered Users Posts: 6,470 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    cms88 wrote: »
    Offaly was just an anomaly of sorts. Before 1960 there was little to no success and pretty much none since 2000. The likes of BNM and ESB coing in the 40s kept people around who would have otherwise left Ireland. It's no coincidence how many of the players from the early football success who were born in the late 40s/50s. While many of the hurling players from the 80s would have been born a bit later. Once those jobs stated to dry up there was little reason for lads to stay around.

    Interesting - would never have linked it to BNM


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    #165
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    gormdubhgorm wrote: »
    I used to think that. I was as biased as you are now. There is a lot of nuance in the game that is missed if you have not played the game. It is a very technical sport that is not apparent on a casual viewing.

    Views such as yours are akin to people calling Gaelic football 'bogball' and hurling 'stick fighting'.

    The funny part is there is a large overlap between other sports and the GAA in Ireland. You need only look at Mick Galwey, Niall Quinn, Kevin Doyle, Shane Long, Jason Sherlock, Michael Donnellan, Shane Horgan, Padraig Harrington, Jim Stynes, Brian Stynes, Tadgh Kennelly, Dennis Taylor, Kevin Moran, and Dennis irwin etc

    Again it proves how egalitarian the GAA is.

    There really isnt any nuance to it....one of greatest things to happen was the collaspe in the fortunes of the "national" team and coronavirus....noone missed it atal,hopefully more will have seen through it for what it is....over hyped nonsense,that rte shouldnt waste time showing,

    We'd be better show a good league match (or railway cup?)thañ the 6 nations in springtime


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    #166
    Rosita
    Registered Users Posts: 3,885 ✭✭✭Rosita


    cms88 wrote: »
    Offaly was just an anomaly of sorts. Before 1960 there was little to no success and pretty much none since 2000. The likes of BNM and ESB coing in the 40s kept people around who would have otherwise left Ireland. It's no coincidence how many of the players from the early football success who were born in the late 40s/50s. While many of the hurling players from the 80s would have been born a bit later. Once those jobs stated to dry up there was little reason for lads to stay around.


    The population of Offaly has remained in the same relative position for the past 70 years - 18th/19th/20 in Ireland. I have always maintained that explaining success in population terms is difficult. Offaly has a bigger population now than ever. It's 33 per cent higher than in 1981.Your analysis suggests that there was a big exodus from Offaly when some jobs dried up. Population statistics suggest otherwise.


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    #167
    callaway92
    Registered Users Posts: 14,341 ✭✭✭✭callaway92


    gormdubhgorm wrote: »
    Winning back to back all Ireland’s is impressive. I will give you that. But looking at the Cork double in 1990 as one of the most impressive feats in GAA is a bit of a myth when you break it down. The only win for the footballers in 1990 where you would have said they would have done well to win was Meath in the final. But even that was a slog. The hurlers did beat Tipp and Galway. Footballers did nothing for over a decade so I think the 1990 win was helped by the luck of the draw. And a poor old Kerry side who would go on to lose to Clare. From a Cork impressive perspective in football I think of that 2010 team or Nemo Rangers for consistency at club level. I would rate Leitrim’s win in 1994 ahead of Corks double. Because we of the strength of Cork the easy draw in the football championship.

    Not that I’m massive on either side of the argument, but you can’t start nitpicking games here and there saying they had an easy draw etc

    They did beat what was in front of them. You could pick the same holes every year, there’ll always be some excuse.


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    #168
    Tombo2001
    Registered Users Posts: 6,470 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    What I think is probably a much fairer point perhaps is that Cork's double is a somewhat under-rated achievement. I suppose neither would be considered in the pantheon of great times; but nonetheless, a double is not easy at all.

    TBH, I think right now, Dublin or Cork or the only potential contenders to do it. No other county could do it, in any scenario.


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    #169
    Tombo2001
    Registered Users Posts: 6,470 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    Rosita wrote: »
    The population of Offaly has remained in the same relative position for the past 70 years - 18th/19th/20 in Ireland. I have always maintained that explaining success in population terms is difficult. Offaly has a bigger population now than ever. It's 33 per cent higher than in 1981.Your analysis suggests that there was a big exodus from Offaly when some jobs dried up. Population statistics suggest otherwise.

    Meaths population is also much larger.

    However my theory on Meath, much like Offaly, is perhaps that a much greater part of the population are now long distance commuters, as opposed to farmers.

    The truth also is that you had pockets of gaa excellence in certain parts of the country in the past- Cavan in the 50s, Roscommon in the 40s - frequently this was built around families, lots of brothers on the one team, and small villages.

    The game is played to a high level now all over the country, to an extent that didnt happen back in the day. Thats why its harder for small counties to compete. However this approach does still work for clubs.


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    #170
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,493 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Meath winning the 2010 Leinster Final with that epic try.


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    #171
    Rosita
    Registered Users Posts: 3,885 ✭✭✭Rosita


    Tombo2001 wrote: »

    TBH, I think right now, Dublin or Cork or the only potential contenders to do it. No other county could do it, in any scenario.

    I have no idea why you'd see Cork as a potential contender for the double right now and Galway not.

    I'd consider right now that neither would have a hope of doing it but it seems to me that Galway are stronger in both games at the moment. They at least look capable of winning one of them and at least getting out of the province in the other. Not sure the same can be said of Cork.

    Long term is another matter, but you said right now.


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    #172
    cms88
    Registered Users Posts: 1,570 ✭✭✭cms88


    Kilkenny Hurlers 2000-2015 who won 4 all irelands in a row
    Rosita wrote: »
    The population of Offaly has remained in the same relative position for the past 70 years - 18th/19th/20 in Ireland. I have always maintained that explaining success in population terms is difficult. Offaly has a bigger population now than ever. It's 33 per cent higher than in 1981.Your analysis suggests that there was a big exodus from Offaly when some jobs dried up. Population statistics suggest otherwise.

    Population isn't everything. As said elsewhere how many people now living in Offaly are actually working there? Same can be said for Kildare, Meath and even Louth.


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    #173
    Rosita
    Registered Users Posts: 3,885 ✭✭✭Rosita


    cms88 wrote: »
    Population isn't everything. As said elsewhere how many people now living in Offaly are actually working there? Same can be said for Kildare, Meath and even Louth.

    I've always argued that population is far from everything. I'm just countering the implication that Offaly had a golden age of industry-driven population.

    It also is fair to say that the populations of Dublin and Cork do not provide a proportionate advantage either. Both populations will count huge numbers of immigrants, student population, transient population for various other reasons, as well as far more alternative activities.

    However, as you say how many people living in Offaly work there? No idea, but if they are living there they are possible contributors to GAA teams. Where they work is irrelevant. Population may have its limitations but it's more relevant than where people work.


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    #174
    StupidLikeAFox
    Registered Users Posts: 7,698 ✭✭✭StupidLikeAFox


    Mickos career as a player and manager is hard to beat


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    #175
    slegs
    Registered Users Posts: 3,005 ✭✭✭slegs


    Rosita wrote: »
    Okay to point out the achievement but not sure about the comparison with Cork. If Offaly had to play Kerry in their province in those years it's possible they might never have even reached an All Ireland final.

    Also, as I have said before, the link between population and success is unclear. For example, Dublin and Cork work from the same population (very blunt instrument) for both hurling and football with very different outcomes. So clearly population is not the discussion-ender you might think.

    I don't have the GAA playing populations but I would guess that Cork may even have more GAA members/players than Dublin.

    GAA population must be a big factor in likelihood of success on simple numbers of talented players available to pick from.

    That's why The Cork / Dublin achievements aren't as spectacular as they might seem. They 'should' be there or thereabouts every year in both codes. If anything Dublin's lack of success at hurling considering their playing population is a massive underachievement. They even have a long tradition of hurling going back to the 30s when they were successful. Not saying population its everything but its clearly one of the biggest helping factors.

    Its like saying Man City winning the league and Champions league would be an amazing achievement. The odds are so heavily stacked in their favour through financial doping that its actually not that big of an achievement at all if they pull it off.


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    #176
    slegs
    Registered Users Posts: 3,005 ✭✭✭slegs


    Interesting graphic on player numbers

    GAA-Investment-1.jpg


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    #177
    Mad about baa baas
    Registered Users Posts: 597 ✭✭✭Mad about baa baas


    Dublin Footballers 2011-2020 who won 6 all Irelands in a row
    slegs wrote: »
    Interesting graphic on player numbers

    GAA-Investment-1.jpg

    Shows what we already knew but kilkenny punching way above their weight..
    Will re state a previous point but ballyhale must be freakish in numbers of medals per players.. I know birr and portumna had great teams but ballyhale are on their second and third generation of teams at this stage


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    #178
    Rosita
    Registered Users Posts: 3,885 ✭✭✭Rosita


    Kilkenny have done well obviously, compared to somewhere like Wicklow which is at nothing based on the raw numbers. But Kilkenny field only hurling teams. Clare, Limerick, Tipperary, Galway all dual counties. Their numbers leave them in a strong position for just one sport.

    What jumps out at me from this map is that the numerical advantage of Dublin and Cork is greatly exaggerated when you consider the split between sports.


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    #179
    spaceCreated
    Registered Users Posts: 389 ✭✭spaceCreated


    Rosita wrote: »
    Kilkenny have done well obviously, compared to somewhere like Wicklow which is at nothing based on the raw numbers. But Kilkenny field only hurling teams. Clare, Limerick, Tipperary, Galway all dual counties. Their numbers leave them in a strong position for just one sport.

    What jumps out at me from this map is that the numerical advantage of Dublin and Cork is greatly exaggerated when you consider the split between sports.

    Yeah like Dublin having 11 times more registered members compared to counties like Fermanagh is hardly a difference tbf, dont know how anyone could interpet is an uneven playing field on numbers alone.


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    #180
    Rosita
    Registered Users Posts: 3,885 ✭✭✭Rosita


    spaceCreated wrote: »
    Yeah like Dublin having 11 times more registered members compared to counties like Fermanagh is hardly a difference tbf, dont know how anyone could interpet is an uneven playing field on numbers alone.

    The fact that you went for the smallest playing numbers in the country to make your point is more eloquent than anything else you could have said. Funny how you didn't split Dublin's playing numbers (to allow for the fact that they also have a top tier hurling team) and then compare with Donegal, Mayo or Kerry. Wouldn't quite back the narrative you're after I suppose.


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    #181
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Rosita wrote: »
    The fact that you went for the smallest playing numbers in the country to make your point is more eloquent than anything else you could have said. Funny how you didn't split Dublin's playing numbers (to allow for the fact that they also have a top tier hurling team) and then compare with Donegal, Mayo or Kerry. Wouldn't quite back the narrative you're after I suppose.

    whats the logic in splitting numbers to allow for a hurling team,when the number that picked hurling for dublin over football is zero....


    Its not as if hurling is taking from football there?....its every bit as factually conceited as picking county with lowest playing number to make the point?


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