The Greatest Achievement In GAA History

Rosita

blue note wrote: »

I wonder how many non-dubs voted for Dublin. I wouldn't say too many.

.

Which highlights the meaninglessness of the poll.

Rosita

cms88 wrote: »

But Dublin still play in more than one game in Leinster, some would say they don't play any but that's another story,

?

Not entirely sure of the relevance of Dublin on the Leinster championship anyway.. Kerry won 9 out of the in the last decade in Munster and managed just one All Ireland so breezing through the province might be overrated.

cms88

Kilkenny Hurlers 2000-2015 who won 4 all irelands in a row

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Your point is that Cork in the 2000s didnt face strong opposition, I would say the same is true of Dublin the mens game, there are 2 counties in the country that can take them on. Beat those - (or one of those if there is a Mayo Kerry semi-final) and they have won the all Ireland.

A better comparison is Kerry's 4 in a row team.

The structure of the LGFA championship when Cork were winning was that the top 4 teams got a bye to the QF stage.

Which is very similar to Kerry in Munster - the played a dead rubber against Tipp or Clare in a munster semi-final - the they played Cork in the final, AI semi, AI final.

Nobody is bring that issue up - why do it for the Cork LGFA team.

1979 munster semi final score- Kerry 9-21, Clare 1-9. Wonder how often 9 goals have been scored in a championship match.

Didn't say a thing about them not facing strong opposition did i? You're the one say that.

Kerry in Munster is always brought up andd the time so don't know why you think it's not.

Ferm001

Fermanagh getting within a kick of the ball of an all Ireland final in 2004.
Beat by Mayo in semifinal replay, but jasus was a great expensive summer.

Tombo2001

cms88 wrote: »

This is often said but is it true? In reality how many counties are their in Ladies Football and Camogie? There are afaik no Provincial championships in Camogie and for a long time in Ladies football it was only Kerry and Cork in Munster.

Ok -here is what you said....

If your point isnt that that there was a lack of opposition/ weak opposition.....then what is your point.

gormdubhgorm

Rosita wrote: »

Which highlights the meaninglessness of the poll.

It is a terrible poll thought up by a Cork person in five minutes.

Plenty of other options were left out.

One offs in football-

Leitrim 1994, Offaly winning the AI in 1982, Donegal winning in 2012

Eras - Crossmaglen in club football, Corofin in club football,

Managerial intercounty eras no Boylan, no Micky Harte

Hurling - those shock wins in the 90's that no one saw coming against the odds - Clare, Wexford. Not mentioned.

gormdubhgorm

Ferm001 wrote: »

Fermanagh getting within a kick of the ball of an all Ireland final in 2004.
Beat by Mayo in semifinal replay, but jasus was a great expensive summer.

Fermanagh is a great call talk about making the best from what you have. Which is what management is about.
.

cms88

Kilkenny Hurlers 2000-2015 who won 4 all irelands in a row

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Ok -here is what you said....

If your point isnt that that there was a lack of opposition/ weak opposition.....then what is your point.

You're changing your point again. You're adding in opposition now as well when before it wasn't.

The number of games needed to win a ladies football title for Cork was 3/4 at the most and some of those games were 20 plus point wins. My point is if you want to dismiss Kerry in Munster, something you've done, what's the difference with Cork?

All of Kerry's All-Irelands are dismissed by some because the favorite they play in a ''Hurling Provice''.

Rosita

slegs wrote: »

I 100% agree...for a small county and a tiny hurling population - Offaly 81/82 is a stunning achievement. On the football side they beat probably the greatest team ever also to win the All Ireland.

For context
Population of Offaly ~75-80k
Population of Cork ~550k

Okay to point out the achievement but not sure about the comparison with Cork. If Offaly had to play Kerry in their province in those years it's possible they might never have even reached an All Ireland final.

Also, as I have said before, the link between population and success is unclear. For example, Dublin and Cork work from the same population (very blunt instrument) for both hurling and football with very different outcomes. So clearly population is not the discussion-ender you might think.

I would suggest the biggest achievements are not what a Dublin, Kerry, Cork or Kilkenny can achieve.

The achievement of Clare winning the 92 Munster football
Clare's 2 all Ireland's from obscurity in 95 and 98
John O'Mahoney managerial record in taking Mayo to All Ireland Final for first time in 38 years, followed by Connacht for Lietrim and 2 All Irelands for Galway
Mick O'Dwyer - 3 Leinster titles with Kildare and Laois
Tyrone 3 AI's in 6 years

cms88

Kilkenny Hurlers 2000-2015 who won 4 all irelands in a row

Rosita wrote: »

Okay to point out the achievement but not sure about the comparison with Cork. If Offaly had to play Kerry in their province in those years it's possible they might never have even reached an All Ireland final.

Also, as I have said before, the link between population and success is unclear. For example, Dublin and Cork work from the same population (very blunt instrument) for both hurling and football with very different outcomes. So clearly population is not the discussion-ender you might think.

Offaly was just an anomaly of sorts. Before 1960 there was little to no success and pretty much none since 2000. The likes of BNM and ESB coing in the 40s kept people around who would have otherwise left Ireland. It's no coincidence how many of the players from the early football success who were born in the late 40s/50s. While many of the hurling players from the 80s would have been born a bit later. Once those jobs stated to dry up there was little reason for lads to stay around.

Tombo2001

cms88 wrote: »

You're changing your point again. You're adding in opposition now as well when before it wasn't.

The number of games needed to win a ladies football title for Cork was 3/4 at the most and some of those games were 20 plus point wins. My point is if you want to dismiss Kerry in Munster, something you've done, what's the difference with Cork?

All of Kerry's All-Irelands are dismissed by some because the favorite they play in a ''Hurling Provice''.

Ok lets leave it so, I dont know what we are debating.

Tombo2001

cms88 wrote: »

Offaly was just an anomaly of sorts. Before 1960 there was little to no success and pretty much none since 2000. The likes of BNM and ESB coing in the 40s kept people around who would have otherwise left Ireland. It's no coincidence how many of the players from the early football success who were born in the late 40s/50s. While many of the hurling players from the 80s would have been born a bit later. Once those jobs stated to dry up there was little reason for lads to stay around.

Interesting - would never have linked it to BNM

gormdubhgorm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I used to think that. I was as biased as you are now. There is a lot of nuance in the game that is missed if you have not played the game. It is a very technical sport that is not apparent on a casual viewing.

Views such as yours are akin to people calling Gaelic football 'bogball' and hurling 'stick fighting'.

The funny part is there is a large overlap between other sports and the GAA in Ireland. You need only look at Mick Galwey, Niall Quinn, Kevin Doyle, Shane Long, Jason Sherlock, Michael Donnellan, Shane Horgan, Padraig Harrington, Jim Stynes, Brian Stynes, Tadgh Kennelly, Dennis Taylor, Kevin Moran, and Dennis irwin etc

Again it proves how egalitarian the GAA is.

There really isnt any nuance to it....one of greatest things to happen was the collaspe in the fortunes of the "national" team and coronavirus....noone missed it atal,hopefully more will have seen through it for what it is....over hyped nonsense,that rte shouldnt waste time showing,

We'd be better show a good league match (or railway cup?)thañ the 6 nations in springtime

Rosita

cms88 wrote: »

Offaly was just an anomaly of sorts. Before 1960 there was little to no success and pretty much none since 2000. The likes of BNM and ESB coing in the 40s kept people around who would have otherwise left Ireland. It's no coincidence how many of the players from the early football success who were born in the late 40s/50s. While many of the hurling players from the 80s would have been born a bit later. Once those jobs stated to dry up there was little reason for lads to stay around.

The population of Offaly has remained in the same relative position for the past 70 years - 18th/19th/20 in Ireland. I have always maintained that explaining success in population terms is difficult. Offaly has a bigger population now than ever. It's 33 per cent higher than in 1981.Your analysis suggests that there was a big exodus from Offaly when some jobs dried up. Population statistics suggest otherwise.

callaway92

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Winning back to back all Ireland’s is impressive. I will give you that. But looking at the Cork double in 1990 as one of the most impressive feats in GAA is a bit of a myth when you break it down. The only win for the footballers in 1990 where you would have said they would have done well to win was Meath in the final. But even that was a slog. The hurlers did beat Tipp and Galway. Footballers did nothing for over a decade so I think the 1990 win was helped by the luck of the draw. And a poor old Kerry side who would go on to lose to Clare. From a Cork impressive perspective in football I think of that 2010 team or Nemo Rangers for consistency at club level. I would rate Leitrim’s win in 1994 ahead of Corks double. Because we of the strength of Cork the easy draw in the football championship.

Not that I’m massive on either side of the argument, but you can’t start nitpicking games here and there saying they had an easy draw etc

They did beat what was in front of them. You could pick the same holes every year, there’ll always be some excuse.

Tombo2001

What I think is probably a much fairer point perhaps is that Cork's double is a somewhat under-rated achievement. I suppose neither would be considered in the pantheon of great times; but nonetheless, a double is not easy at all.

TBH, I think right now, Dublin or Cork or the only potential contenders to do it. No other county could do it, in any scenario.

Tombo2001

Rosita wrote: »

The population of Offaly has remained in the same relative position for the past 70 years - 18th/19th/20 in Ireland. I have always maintained that explaining success in population terms is difficult. Offaly has a bigger population now than ever. It's 33 per cent higher than in 1981.Your analysis suggests that there was a big exodus from Offaly when some jobs dried up. Population statistics suggest otherwise.

Meaths population is also much larger.

However my theory on Meath, much like Offaly, is perhaps that a much greater part of the population are now long distance commuters, as opposed to farmers.

The truth also is that you had pockets of gaa excellence in certain parts of the country in the past- Cavan in the 50s, Roscommon in the 40s - frequently this was built around families, lots of brothers on the one team, and small villages.

The game is played to a high level now all over the country, to an extent that didnt happen back in the day. Thats why its harder for small counties to compete. However this approach does still work for clubs.

tayto lover

Meath winning the 2010 Leinster Final with that epic try.

Rosita

Tombo2001 wrote: »

TBH, I think right now, Dublin or Cork or the only potential contenders to do it. No other county could do it, in any scenario.

I have no idea why you'd see Cork as a potential contender for the double right now and Galway not.

I'd consider right now that neither would have a hope of doing it but it seems to me that Galway are stronger in both games at the moment. They at least look capable of winning one of them and at least getting out of the province in the other. Not sure the same can be said of Cork.

Long term is another matter, but you said right now.

cms88

Kilkenny Hurlers 2000-2015 who won 4 all irelands in a row

Rosita wrote: »

The population of Offaly has remained in the same relative position for the past 70 years - 18th/19th/20 in Ireland. I have always maintained that explaining success in population terms is difficult. Offaly has a bigger population now than ever. It's 33 per cent higher than in 1981.Your analysis suggests that there was a big exodus from Offaly when some jobs dried up. Population statistics suggest otherwise.

Population isn't everything. As said elsewhere how many people now living in Offaly are actually working there? Same can be said for Kildare, Meath and even Louth.

Rosita

cms88 wrote: »

Population isn't everything. As said elsewhere how many people now living in Offaly are actually working there? Same can be said for Kildare, Meath and even Louth.

I've always argued that population is far from everything. I'm just countering the implication that Offaly had a golden age of industry-driven population.

It also is fair to say that the populations of Dublin and Cork do not provide a proportionate advantage either. Both populations will count huge numbers of immigrants, student population, transient population for various other reasons, as well as far more alternative activities.

However, as you say how many people living in Offaly work there? No idea, but if they are living there they are possible contributors to GAA teams. Where they work is irrelevant. Population may have its limitations but it's more relevant than where people work.

StupidLikeAFox

Mickos career as a player and manager is hard to beat

slegs

Rosita wrote: »

Okay to point out the achievement but not sure about the comparison with Cork. If Offaly had to play Kerry in their province in those years it's possible they might never have even reached an All Ireland final.

Also, as I have said before, the link between population and success is unclear. For example, Dublin and Cork work from the same population (very blunt instrument) for both hurling and football with very different outcomes. So clearly population is not the discussion-ender you might think.

I don't have the GAA playing populations but I would guess that Cork may even have more GAA members/players than Dublin.

GAA population must be a big factor in likelihood of success on simple numbers of talented players available to pick from.

That's why The Cork / Dublin achievements aren't as spectacular as they might seem. They 'should' be there or thereabouts every year in both codes. If anything Dublin's lack of success at hurling considering their playing population is a massive underachievement. They even have a long tradition of hurling going back to the 30s when they were successful. Not saying population its everything but its clearly one of the biggest helping factors.

Its like saying Man City winning the league and Champions league would be an amazing achievement. The odds are so heavily stacked in their favour through financial doping that its actually not that big of an achievement at all if they pull it off.

slegs

Interesting graphic on player numbers

Mad about baa baas

Dublin Footballers 2011-2020 who won 6 all Irelands in a row

slegs wrote: »

Interesting graphic on player numbers

Shows what we already knew but kilkenny punching way above their weight..
Will re state a previous point but ballyhale must be freakish in numbers of medals per players.. I know birr and portumna had great teams but ballyhale are on their second and third generation of teams at this stage

Rosita

Kilkenny have done well obviously, compared to somewhere like Wicklow which is at nothing based on the raw numbers. But Kilkenny field only hurling teams. Clare, Limerick, Tipperary, Galway all dual counties. Their numbers leave them in a strong position for just one sport.

What jumps out at me from this map is that the numerical advantage of Dublin and Cork is greatly exaggerated when you consider the split between sports.

spaceCreated

Rosita wrote: »

Kilkenny have done well obviously, compared to somewhere like Wicklow which is at nothing based on the raw numbers. But Kilkenny field only hurling teams. Clare, Limerick, Tipperary, Galway all dual counties. Their numbers leave them in a strong position for just one sport.

What jumps out at me from this map is that the numerical advantage of Dublin and Cork is greatly exaggerated when you consider the split between sports.

Yeah like Dublin having 11 times more registered members compared to counties like Fermanagh is hardly a difference tbf, dont know how anyone could interpet is an uneven playing field on numbers alone.

Rosita

spaceCreated wrote: »

Yeah like Dublin having 11 times more registered members compared to counties like Fermanagh is hardly a difference tbf, dont know how anyone could interpet is an uneven playing field on numbers alone.

The fact that you went for the smallest playing numbers in the country to make your point is more eloquent than anything else you could have said. Funny how you didn't split Dublin's playing numbers (to allow for the fact that they also have a top tier hurling team) and then compare with Donegal, Mayo or Kerry. Wouldn't quite back the narrative you're after I suppose.

Rosita

Rosita wrote: »

The fact that you went for the smallest playing numbers in the country to make your point is more eloquent than anything else you could have said. Funny how you didn't split Dublin's playing numbers (to allow for the fact that they also have a top tier hurling team) and then compare with Donegal, Mayo or Kerry. Wouldn't quite back the narrative you're after I suppose.

whats the logic in splitting numbers to allow for a hurling team,when the number that picked hurling for dublin over football is zero....


Its not as if hurling is taking from football there?....its every bit as factually conceited as picking county with lowest playing number to make the point?

Rosita

Deleted User wrote: »

whats the logic in splitting numbers to allow for a hurling team,when the number that picked hurling for dublin over football is zero....


Its not as if hurling is taking from football there?....its every bit as factually conceited as picking county with lowest playing number to make the point?

Okay, so it's only the sport where Dublin are successful we're counting then? At least we have established the agenda anyway.

Rosita

Rosita wrote: »

Okay, so it's only the sport where Dublin are successful we're counting then? At least we have established the agenda anyway.

Except noone has said this....chill out


Its simple to see from where im at,that hurling is not drawing/limiting the success of football in dublin as no players have picked it over football.....the logic and caveat that numbers be split when discussing playing numbers and success thereof is surely therefore pointless??

Rosita

Deleted User wrote: »

Except noone has said this....chill out

Sorry, too late to chill out. I'm far too much out of control. Now if only I could be as cool, calm and collected as you........

spaceCreated

Rosita wrote: »

The fact that you went for the smallest playing numbers in the country to make your point is more eloquent than anything else you could have said. Funny how you didn't split Dublin's playing numbers (to allow for the fact that they also have a top tier hurling team) and then compare with Donegal, Mayo or Kerry. Wouldn't quite back the narrative you're after I suppose.

A top tier hurling team? DUBLIN :pac::pac::pac::pac:
Youre surely not being serious, come off it, do you watch hurling? Nah youre joking... surely

Okay, for fun lets just split that number in half, they only have 4 times as much as Tipp who are dual county, or Limerick in a similar position. I guess poor Dublin theres no advantage to having twice the numbers of dual county Galway.

spaceCreated

Rosita wrote: »

Okay, so it's only the sport where Dublin are successful we're counting then? At least we have established the agenda anyway.

Oh no, we've been rumbled :eek:

Rosita

spaceCreated wrote: »

Oh no, we've been rumbled :eek:

I'd say you've rumbled trickier customers in your time you clever clever old devil. Some man for wan man!

Rosita

spaceCreated wrote: »

A top tier hurling team? DUBLIN :pac::pac::pac::pac:
Youre surely not being serious, come off it, do you watch hurling? Nah youre joking... surely

My last comment on this. Dublin were in Division 1 of the hurling League. They won a Leinster hurling championship and a National hurling League, Leinster minor and under 21 hurling championships in the past decade. They gave I would say been more successful in Leinster than Wexford, and at underage gave probably more or less matched Kilkenny. You might not like that but it's true. If you seriously do not regard them as a top tier hurling county then I can't help you. The sport has few enough of them.

No wonder I am here looking over the edge of a cliff dreaming of having your cucumber-like demeanour.

spaceCreated

Rosita wrote: »

My last comment on this. Dublin were in Division 1 of the hurling League. They won a Leinster hurling championship and a National hurling League, Leinster minor and under 21 hurling championships in the past decade. They gave I would say been more successful in Leinster than Wexford, and at underage gave probably more or less matched Kilkenny. You might not like that but it's true. If you seriously do not regard them as a top tier hurling county then I can't help you. The sport has few enough of them.

No wonder I am here looking over the edge of a cliff dreaming of having your cucumber-like demeanour.

What? :pac::pac::pac:

spaceCreated

spaceCreated wrote: »

What? :pac::pac::pac:

Rosey is rattled as fcuk

cms88

Kilkenny Hurlers 2000-2015 who won 4 all irelands in a row

Rosita wrote: »

My last comment on this. Dublin were in Division 1 of the hurling League. They won a Leinster hurling championship and a National hurling League, Leinster minor and under 21 hurling championships in the past decade. They gave I would say been more successful in Leinster than Wexford, and at underage gave probably more or less matched Kilkenny. You might not like that but it's true. If you seriously do not regard them as a top tier hurling county then I can't help you. The sport has few enough of them.

No wonder I am here looking over the edge of a cliff dreaming of having your cucumber-like demeanour.

Funny you compare Dublin to Wexford at senior level, who bar the league title have won the same as Dublin, but ignore it at underage level where as you might say they've ''more or less matched'' them.

Rosita

cms88 wrote: »

Funny you compare Dublin to Wexford at senior level, who bar the league title have won the same as Dublin, but ignore it at underage level where as you might say they've ''more or less matched'' them.

Just for clarification (as opposed to engaging) the word 'senior' does not appear in my post. You are imagining that. In fact that plus your assumption that the "them" I referred is Wexford suggests you didn't read my post very carefully. Doesn't matter as I won't be getting involved but at least deal with stuff that was actually said. Fairly basic comprehension really.

cms88

Kilkenny Hurlers 2000-2015 who won 4 all irelands in a row

Rosita wrote: »

Just for clarification (as opposed to engaging) the word 'senior' does not appear in my post. You are imagining that. In fact that plus your assumption that the "them" I referred is Wexford suggests you didn't read my post very carefully. Doesn't matter as I won't be getting involved but at least deal with stuff that was actually said. Fairly basic comprehension really.

No i read it all. Why leave out that you were not jut talking about Wexford at senior level then? You only mention Kilkenny when it comes to underage level.

Anyway as we've already seen from you on this you're just going to come back with another meaningless post to try and prove whatever point you're trying to make.

ShamoBuc

Mod Note

A few posts today seem to be going a tad off topic.

Kindly get back to the topic only please.

The_Kew_Tour

Kerry Footballers 1975-1986 who won 4 all Irelands in a row

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Winning back to back all Ireland’s is impressive. I will give you that. But looking at the Cork double in 1990 as one of the most impressive feats in GAA is a bit of a myth when you break it down. The only win for the footballers in 1990 where you would have said they would have done well to win was Meath in the final. But even that was a slog. The hurlers did beat Tipp and Galway. Footballers did nothing for over a decade so I think the 1990 win was helped by the luck of the draw. And a poor old Kerry side who would go on to lose to Clare. From a Cork impressive perspective in football I think of that 2010 team or Nemo Rangers for consistency at club level. I would rate Leitrim’s win in 1994 ahead of Corks double. Because we of the strength of Cork the easy draw in the football championship.

So you consider pretty much every Kerry All Ireland to be easy?

MayoAreMagic

Kerry Footballers 1975-1986 who won 4 all Irelands in a row

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Not completely true. No way is it comparable to Galway winning hurling in Connaught.

Dublin 2011 - 2020 is the development of a team and a system who adapted and changed. From the outside looking in many would forget / not know of the evolution of Dublin tactically both prior to 2011 and until 2020. They were not made overnight.

Why tactical evolution did Galway hurling bring??

The 2011 win was a smash and grab - Kerry got caught cold.

The 2013 win was a hard fought one - Dublin won by a point v Mayo. It could be argued Mayo made a balls of it.

The 2015 win was probably the best one as it involved beating Kerry on a dirty day. Plus the tactics of Dublin were changed as a result of the 2014 loss to Donegal the previous year. There was a clear shift and tactical development more patience and strategic thinking

The 2016 win v Mayo that Dublin really should have loss. Went to replay and all. Again you could argue Mayo blew it

The 2017 win Dublin's game management was superb the win v Tyrone in the SF and controlled win v Mayo in the final even if Dublin only won by a point

The 2018 win was the finest display of accuracy in a final I have ever seen v Tyrone. Look up the stats to see how many wides Dublin hit

The 2019 win was superb against Kerry. Jim Gavin used cluxton as a extra man out field when Dublin went a man down in the first game. To level it up. Leaving Tommy Walsh free to be picked up by Cluxton

Genius tactical stuff and analysed by a Kerryman. They know what they are talking about.

The 2020 win - I honestly don't really count a mickey mouse all Ireland win. Not proper at all. Aussie Rules lads were the main variables as a result of COVID19.

--

As I said before Dublin have had to face many teams who are given second chances. Who would otherwise have been knocked out in other eras.

Not sure how any of this is really relevant. The point made was that dublins achievement is lessened because of their overwhelmingly favourable treatment.
It isnt a new concept either. Look at olympiakos for example, or the celtic scenario when rangers went out of business. Im sure some teams gave them a bit of a game here and there along the way also, but in the bigger picture, the end game was inevitable. When that is the case, it isnt much of an achievement when it comes to pass.
Objectively speaking, they are a provincial team competing against county teams. It is kind of flat track bully-esque, and that is never really classed as something that is worthy of the highest level of praise. For example, if celtic won something in europe - where teams are capable of rivalling them, it would probably be more worthwhile than their 9 spls put together, while Leicester winning one epl would be classed as a once in a lifetime achievement.

gormdubhgorm

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

So you consider pretty much every Kerry All Ireland to be easy?

The Kerry era mentioned in the poll were fantastic that is beyond doubt. And they showed a remarkable consistency lead by the same core players.

I don't know how you managed to extrapolate 'every' all ireland Kerry won was easy from my point. I have not once implied that every AI is easy.

However some are easier than others.
In my opinion the following variables should be taken into account when assessing an AI win



1) Given the structures of the championship at the time

2) The luck of the draw at the time

3) The strength of a team at the time

4) The level of competitiveness of opponents

-

1) Structures of the championship


In reference to Kerry they historically have an advantage as the only strong single strong football county in a hurling province. That has been a clear advantage throughout the history of the GAA. And is an anomaly of the system. They are facing mostly division 4 and division 3 teams. Cork were even division 3 recently.

When the championship was purely knock out it meant that only one team from rival counties from each province could emerge. Meaning only ONE of a trio in strong Leinster province of Dublin - Meath - Offaly could emerge for example.

Or a Connaught province where only one of Galway - Mayo and Roscommon could emerge for example.

This was advantageous to Kerry in their most successful era. As they were playing in a hurling province. Only one team with half a footballing tradition Cork.

When the backdoor system emerged this also was advantageous to Kerry as if they did manage to lose in Munster it gave them a second chance. This was seen mostly starkly in the 2009 AI where Kerry defeated Cork. Cork had won Munster that year. In other more traditional years Kerry would have been gone in Munster. Once defeated against Cork and they would have been out of Munster and out of the Championship. But the 'back door' worked to Kerry's advantage.
If Dublin, Meath or the Ulster teams had a 'back door' in the 1990's history in Gaelic football could have been very different.

It is not Kerry's fault that the championship structures were/are the way they are. They could only play what was in front of them.

You saw how weak the AI championship was in 2020 Covid 19 championship. One sided games when the SF's were reached. Some of the bigger teams did not get a second chance to 'tune in' as Paidi O'Sé used to say.

2) The Luck of the Draw


It was well known in years past in knockout football of a certain era, people would immediately look at which provinces avoid the more difficult provinces.

In Kerry's most successful era the prefered route to a final was to face an Ulster/Connaught team in the AI SF. As Cork did in 1990.
This would at least give a nicer/easier route to the AI final.


Let's look at the 1975 AI football championship one which Kerry won well against Dublin in the AI final by 7 points.

But look at Kerry's route to the final -

They avoided Leinster in the AI SF - easier route to the Final

Tipp by 13 points
Cork by 10 points
Sligo by 17 points (Sligo only scored 5 points)

Of those three teams you would say only one was supposed to be somewhat a challenge for Kerry.

Again, it is not Kerry's fault they could only play the teams they were set to play in the draw. And they beat them well.

To give context 2004 Fermanagh would have played four games in the qualifiers alone (had Tipp not withdrawn) just to reach the AI football SF. Prior to that Fermanagh played Tyrone in Ulster and that would have been that under the old traditional system in Kerry's successful era. As it was (as another poster pointed out) Fermangh were within a boot of the ball of beating Mayo to get to an AI final.

So that is twice as many to play in a championship (six) v Kerry's (three) to reach an AI final for Fermanagh.
And Fermanagh's games were much more difficult at the time.



3) The strength of the team at the time

In Kerry's glorious era they were miles ahead of most other teams, except the occasional blip. They had no competition in Munster. And only really had to worry about the team that one team that came out of Leinster whether it be in the AI SF or AI Final. Again not Kerry's fault but add in the strength of Kerry's team and the structure of the competition it made things easier than if they would have been in a more difficult province with no back door.


4) The strength of the competitors

Teams in other provinces only got one chance in Kerry's glorious era. What damage would Roscommon. Meath, Offaly, Dublin have done if there was a back door? It has made the latter stages of the competition stronger .

Leinster was arguably the strongest province in Ireland during Kerry's glorious era 70's - 1980's. With Offaly, Meath and Dublin being a trio of fantastic teams. Similar to the level of competitiveness and strength of Ulster in the 1990's Down, Derry and Donegal.

With the advent of the back door system and then the Super 8's the cream of the country is now likely to stay in the hunt for Sam the longer.

At the moment there are a number of counties in the mix

1) Dublin - a superb side ahead of the pack - but aging. Not the same strength and depth

2) Kerry - chasing Dublin hard as they gain experience

3) Mayo - the most consistent team in Ireland over a 20 year period - and has had a refresh

4) Donegal - a team with some highly talented youngsters mix with experience

5) Tyrone - a team with the tradition of Micky Harte behind it but now looking to evolve and make use of their obviously talented squad - particularly their forwards Under new management.

Those would really be the top five with a chance of winning Sam - with honourable mentions to Monaghan and Galway who have the potential to be great sides. If they get the tactics and management right. Cork? I don't know what to make of them.

Again, this is not the top team of the era's fault (Dublin) as it was in Kerry's best era. But football is definitely now more competitive at a national level than it was in Kerry's glorious era. The standard of football has never been higher and those five teams in particular are the ones who will be in the mix in the foreseeable future. An AI has to be properly won now as there are 5/6 teams in the mix or improving to a very competitive level.

Bass Reeves

Kilkenny Hurlers 2000-2015 who won 4 all irelands in a row

While it was not available to the Kerry team and Dublin never had to avail of it IMO the back door is neutral to the teams. The reason being the hardest battle Jerry faced in that era was from a Cork team that knew there was only one game and one chance. The hardest battle Kerry often had was beating Cork teams that had no other focus.

If there was a back door would Kerry have won the 1983 all Ireland after losing to a Cork team by a point or two if I remember right. Would a back door have allowed it to sneak another AI post 1986. We will never know.

The present Dublin te.havr no challenge in Leinster. Teams are focused on the back door and qualifying for the super eights. The one year that a back door might have mattered in the modern era was last year where Kerry, Donegal and Tyrone were eliminated early and Cork and Cavan as well as Mayo were poor quality opposition in the last 4

gormdubhgorm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The present Dublin te.havr no challenge in Leinster. Teams are focused on the back door and qualifying for the super eights. The one year that a back door might have mattered in the modern era was last year where Kerry, Donegal and Tyrone were eliminated early and Cork and Cavan as well as Mayo were poor quality opposition in the last 4

I analysed the strength of Munster football and Leinster football based on league position back in 2020

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=115518143&postcount=823

And realised there is very little difference in standard between the two.

I realise that last years championship was the oddest year in GAA history, no crowds, aussie rule lads forced to remain and so on.

But it did demonstrate how the backdoor system keeps the cream of the country in until the latter stages of the championship There is no flukes to get to the business end when there is a backdoor.

As big teams who are caught get a second bite of it. If there was a backdoor in the 90's it would have been fierce competitive stuff. With Mayo, Galway, Dublin, Meath, Derry, Donegal, Down, Kerry, Cork, Kildare all still likely in the mix at a QF stage each year instead of only four of them in a SF.


As regards greatest achievement it depends how you factor it in.

One rare one off or consistency?
A manager lifting a team against the odds? A few great players lifting a team against the odds?

Westmeath and Paidi is an example of a manager lifting a team in 2003 from no place. Or like Micko did with Laois. And through his star attraction with Kildare. Sure didn't Micko did beat teams he had no right to with Wicklow.

Corcaigh84

Kerry Footballers 1975-1986 who won 4 all Irelands in a row

All this talk of 6 in a row and no one yet mentioned one of our most famous sons Jack Lynch did it already 1941-46

gormdubhgorm

Corcaigh84 wrote: »

All this talk of 6 in a row and no one yet mentioned one of our most famous sons Jack Lynch did it already 1941-46

Plus he was a dual star Taoiseach, and has a tunnel named after him.

He deserves his own category!

You would have some job to top all of that!