Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XI Read OP For Mod Warnings

robbiezero · 16-06-2021 04:51PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Some, yes. Every city? No.

Closer to two weeks' time than one week.

Have a look at the crowds in Portugal and Hungary yesterday. I will be amazed if the cases don't spike. Whether or not that spike is countered by other measures remains to be seen.

Do you expect there to be zero transmission of the virus in a stadium packed to the gills with 60,000+ fans, even with their high % of vaccinations?

Who knows. I would agree 60K+ is reckless in Hungary. But no one or very few in this country are looking for that at this point
I'll be interested in the stadiums in the other countries who have to me a sensible approach.

Terry.. · 16-06-2021 04:51PM

When's this bullsht over

It's literally destroyed society

Terry.. · 16-06-2021 04:55PM

Everybody's quaking in their homes over nothing

Silentcorner · 16-06-2021 05:00PM

niallo27 wrote: »

Look at the crowds out drinking every weekend on the street of Dublin and limerick, thousands of people drunk packed together, I'd be amazed if we don't see a spike. Oh wait..

There have been packed stadiums for months now in other countries, no spike.

There have been massive protests in the UK over the last few weeks, no spike.

It was the same last summer....massive crowds on beaches, no spike.

Massive BLM riots, no spike.

zackory · 16-06-2021 05:00PM

Deleted User wrote: »

We've had large gatherings, but we haven't had large gatherings of 10,000+ people. And it's not just sitting in the stadium. It's the pubs, shops, buses, queues, toilets etc. that are also part of the experience.

You're correct that there is no such thing as a certainty, but if you're hiding behind that to pretend that having tens of thousands of people in close proximity wouldn't cause an increase, then you're lying to yourself in order to lend credence to your argument.

Will it cause an increase - possibly.

However, I was responding to a person who said, and I will quote for you again:

The point is that if we held these events, reopening would likely have to be pushed back.

Given the key parameters, vaccination levels (both of the crowd and general population) the low incidence, current hospitalisations etc.

If hosting these events are likely to push back our reopening then we are in trouble, we really are.

16-06-2021 05:04PM

niallo27 wrote: »

Look at the crowds out drinking every weekend on the street of Dublin and limerick, thousands of people drunk packed together, I'd be amazed if we don't see a spike. Oh wait..

Were there 60,000 on the streets of Dublin crammed into a relatively small space for about 3 hrs, drinking and shouting and celebrating and hugging and kissing?

Oh wait........get back in your box with your false equivalency bolloxology

Bit cynical · 16-06-2021 05:06PM

robbiezero wrote: »

This has been the case all through the pandemic, its a stupid reason not to do something, but it has been our general mode of operation.

"Lockdown to avoid lockdown"
"Delay easing of restrictions to avoid having to delay easing of restrictions".
"Don't open up one thing because others will want to open up another thing".

I believe behind seemingly nonsensical statements like "we need to lockdown to avoid lockdown" is zero-covid thinking, the belief that the immediate goal is eradication rather than living with the virus. So locking down hard now makes sense if you eradicate the virus, then you don't need to lockdown in future. Likewise, not wanting to ease restrictions prematurely in the belief that doing so will delay ultimate easing of restrictions as there's still some virus present.

You see this form of thinking with some posters here and I believe it is present also in the recommendations of the CMO and NPHET. The reason it doesn't get properly challenged is that it exists at a fairly deep unacknowledged level in people's minds. They aren't aware that they are thinking that way.

Fairly easy to counter once you see that they are holding that view. We know that there will always be some level of the virus somewhere and that we need manage the degree to which it causes us harm. Full elimination of the virus is not practical.

zackory · 16-06-2021 05:08PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Were there 60,000 on the streets of Dublin crammed into a relatively small space for about 3 hrs, drinking and shouting and celebrating and hugging and kissing?

We are talking about ~13000 in Dublin, not 60000.

seamus · 16-06-2021 05:10PM

haskellgeek wrote: »

Possibly the wrong thread but with the rules relaxing is anyone else annoyed at being restricted by being unvaccinated by age alone, essentially with travel being allowed by July 19th for those vaccinated with no pcr test well I have probably 0 chance on age alone being in that group, wonder will other things be restricted too, anyone under the age of 30 is probably in this group if they aren't getting it from the age distribution.

Sure, it's annoying. It'd be nice to be have been vaccinated months ago.

But unless you can think of a better way it should have been done, there's no point getting worked up about it. It is what it is.

16-06-2021 05:12PM

zackory wrote: »

Will it cause an increase - possibly.

However, I was responding to a person who said, and I will quote for you again:

The point is that if we held these events, reopening would likely have to be pushed back.

Given the key parameters, vaccination levels (both of the crowd and general population) the low incidence, current hospitalisations etc.

If hosting these events are likely to push back our reopening then we are in trouble, we really are.

Again, it's all about maths.
Huge crowds = more interactions
More interactions = higher chance of transmission
Higher chance of transmission= more actual transmissions
More transmissions = higher case numbers
Higher case numbers = greater likelihood that we wouldn't have opened as quickly

I don't know how anyone can argue against that. That is how we have been operating for the past 16 months, irrespective of vaccine numbers or hospitalisations etc. It is literally the gameplan as developed by Government. I will concede that the further along on the road to recovery we are, the less likely any temporary blips would delay the reopening, but this all came to a head weeks/months ago when we were first starting down that road. To claim otherwise is just stubbornness.

You yourself have gone from "that's absolute bollox" to "possibly cause an increase in numbers". Can you not also accept that a possible increase in numbers would also lead to a possible delaying of reopening the country?

niallo27 · 16-06-2021 05:12PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Were there 60,000 on the streets of Dublin crammed into a relatively small space for about 3 hrs, drinking and shouting and celebrating and hugging and kissing?

Oh wait........get back in your box with your false equivalency bolloxology

Why were they in there for 3 hours first of all, 2nd they lost the game so why would they be celebrating, who kisses at a football. Have you ever actual been to a game, the stadium is all seater. You don't go around kissing everyone at the game.

16-06-2021 05:13PM

zackory wrote: »

We are talking about ~13000 in Dublin, not 60000.

You may not realise it, but you're making my point for me.

Thanks.

_Kaiser_ · 16-06-2021 05:14PM

Don't Chute! wrote: »

Ciaran Cuddihy was just tearing into the government and nphet on newstalk there. Saying they have absolutely no ambition. Was great to hear.

He just said there a minute ago that we'll all be in our graves by the time NPHET are satisfied with evidence re Antigen testing.

He's not wrong. Tony H comes across as throwing a tantrum because events and decisions elsewhere are overtaking his ability to control them. We've seen numerous times he doesn't like being questioned, let alone overruled.

Again, Tony H is not fit for the role he's in and hasn't been for a long time.

16-06-2021 05:22PM

niallo27 wrote: »

Why were they in there for 3 hours first of all, 2nd they lost the game so why would they be celebrating, who kisses at a football. Have you ever actual been to a game, the stadium is all seater. You don't go around kissing everyone at the game.

1.
50 mins per half incl. stoppage time
15 mins half time
20 mins beforehand to get in, get a drink, get your seat
20 mins afterwards to get out
Almost three hours. Or do you expect them all to magically teleport into their seats just before and after the whistle goes?

2.
You do realise that there were Portuguese fans present, yes? Normally there are fans from both the winning and losing sides in attendance. (Have YOU ever been to a match?)

3.
I've kissed many a person at games. Mostly the people I was with, but the odd stranger mixed in. I never claimed one person kissed everyone, I said there'd be people shouting, hugging and kissing each other.

Also, Just because it's all-seater, doesn't mean they're all seated.

niallo27 · 16-06-2021 05:22PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

He just said there a minute ago that we'll all be in our graves by the time NPHET are satisfied with evidence re Antigen testing.

He's not wrong. Tony H comes across as throwing a tantrum because events and decisions elsewhere are overtaking his ability to control them. We've seen numerous times he doesn't like being questioned, let alone overruled.

Again, Tony H is not fit for the role he's in and hasn't been for a long time.

Its like a cult with him at this stage, the man can do no wrong. We will still have people defend him in here no matter what he does. It's actually a bit strange.

niallo27 · 16-06-2021 05:27PM

Deleted User wrote: »

1.
50 mins per half incl. stoppage time
15 mins half time
20 mins beforehand to get in, get a drink, get your seat
20 mins afterwards to get out
Almost three hours. Or do you expect them all to magically teleport into their seats just before and after the whistle goes?

2.
You do realise that there were Portuguese fans present, yes? Normally there are fans from both the winning and losing sides in attendance. (Have YOU ever been to a match?)

3.
I've kissed many a person at games. Mostly the people I was with, but the odd stranger mixed in. I never claimed one person kissed everyone, I said there'd be people shouting, hugging and kissing each other.

Also, Just because it's all-seater, doesn't mean they're all seated.

So your saying you went to a game and generally mixed with the crowd you went with, we are in a pandemic so i presume people would not be kissing strangers. An all seater means they were all more in the same zone for the whole game. Listen there is no talking to you, your are obviously terrified but people are moving on in other countries.

Graham · 16-06-2021 05:28PM

niallo27 wrote: »

Its like a cult with him at this stage, the man can do no wrong. We will still have people defend him in here no matter what he does. It's actually a bit strange.

and yet it's only really the anti-Tony lobby that ever mention him.

Silentcorner · 16-06-2021 05:30PM

niallo27 wrote: »

Its like a cult with him at this stage, the man can do no wrong. We will still have people defend him in here no matter what he does. It's actually a bit strange.

When Tony starts referring to himself in the third person we'll know he has lost it...it's probably only a matter of time. Bureaucrats should never have been given this much power, it always gets the better of them!!

You question Tony, you question science!!!!

Boggles · 16-06-2021 05:32PM

robbiezero wrote: »

Of course. That approach makes sense. Beats being the slowest in Europe just because of what MIGHT happen (which I note you take for granted would happen.

The Delta variant will become dominant here, it's not a question of might, it's just when.

So hopefully when that does happen we have the required number fully vaccinated so we are not experiencing the same level of potential issues England are at the moment and are heading for.

Personally I think it would be dangerously stupid to ignore that data and just plain reckless to significantly speed up reopening.

No amount of banging the table is going to make the reality of the current situation disappear.

haskellgeek · 16-06-2021 05:32PM

seamus wrote: »

Sure, it's annoying. It'd be nice to be have been vaccinated months ago.

But unless you can think of a better way it should have been done, there's no point getting worked up about it. It is what it is.

True, it is annoying though that those that will ultimately pay for it get the least , but yes no need to be annoyed at it they have to go in some order. Good to see it happening anyway hopefully we keep getting more!

zackory · 16-06-2021 05:52PM

Boggles wrote: »

No amount of banging the table is going to make the reality of the current situation disappear.

Indeed, that reality being 57 people in hospital with covid today, just 19 in ICU.

Boggles · 16-06-2021 06:15PM

zackory wrote: »

Indeed, that reality being 57 people in hospital with covid today, just 19 in ICU.

Great isn't it, society and the economy reopening, people meeting, drinking, dining, holidaying, sports, etc, etc.

You'd want to be dangerously simple to put the situation we find ourselves at risk.

gozunda · 16-06-2021 06:26PM

JRant wrote: »

You did say our COVID response did fairly well.

Nope. You just made up the highlighted bit.

Even by the appalling standards of some of the replies - thats an extremely poor effort.

In case you forgot what was being referenced - and where "we've done fairly well" Here it is again.

https://i.imgflip.com/5dek78.jpg

So in relation to those two outcomes detailed in the charts - do explain what upsets you so?

16-06-2021 07:09PM

niallo27 wrote: »

So your saying you went to a game and generally mixed with the crowd you went with, we are in a pandemic so i presume people would not be kissing strangers. An all seater means they were all more in the same zone for the whole game. Listen there is no talking to you, your are obviously terrified but people are moving on in other countries.

So you're saying you have been caught out by the first two points, have no reply to them, are now trying to get out on a technicality with the third point (and failing) and have now resorted to claiming I'm terrified and making pedantic points about seats? Listen, there's no talking to you, you're obviously envious of other countries opening up earlier than us.

Marcusm · 16-06-2021 07:13PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

He just said there a minute ago that we'll all be in our graves by the time NPHET are satisfied with evidence re Antigen testing.

He's not wrong. Tony H comes across as throwing a tantrum because events and decisions elsewhere are overtaking his ability to control them. We've seen numerous times he doesn't like being questioned, let alone overruled.

Again, Tony H is not fit for the role he's in and hasn't been for a long time.

He’s absolutely wrong. They made it clear that by the time they even start thinking about antigen tests that 19/7 will have come and they will be happy for travel to occur without any tests. It’s a usurpation of function. There was a reference to the resources involved in planning and carrying out antigen effectiveness testing. Huh, we’re using the vaccines based on a desktop review of overseas trials. I wouldn’t mind so much if they said that antigen tests only have validity when the sample is collected by a trained professional and others couldn’t be trusted. There is some validity to that.

AlekSmart · 16-06-2021 07:17PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

He just said there a minute ago that we'll all be in our graves by the time NPHET are satisfied with evidence re Antigen testing.

He's not wrong. Tony H comes across as throwing a tantrum because events and decisions elsewhere are overtaking his ability to control them. We've seen numerous times he doesn't like being questioned, let alone overruled.

Again, Tony H is not fit for the role he's in and hasn't been for a long time.

There is something increasingly odd about the current NPHET interpretation of the Covid situation.
Dr Holohan has stressed on a couple of occasions now,that it is HIS interpretation of the situation which is being used as NPHET policy,with little evidence of any dissent being tolerated.

Earlier comprehensive reports of the Irish Airline Pilots Association President,Evan Cullen's views have since been edited,but are still worth noting as one of the few direct challenges to Dr Holohan's increasingly isolationist positions.

Mr Cullen alluded to there being a certain,less than unanimous NPHET view on Antigen Testing,but Dr Holohan's own personal views being the only one presented to the Dáil Committee.

Perhaps the most telling aspect of the current situation,is how the entire Covid 19 testing regieme has now been soundly monatized,with NO Public Health focus whatever.

At some stage,a Journalist (Probably from a UK based organ) will start following the money trail here,and I suspect the trails will lead in interesting directions..

FOLLOW THE MONEY

Boggles · 16-06-2021 07:21PM

Marcusm wrote: »

There was a reference to the resources involved in planning and carrying out antigen effectiveness testing.

The reference was the Gig in Barcelona.

Professor Mary Keogan, Consultant Immunologist and National Clinical Lead for Pathology, said rapid antigen tests can be quite labour intensive.

She said that a test concert in Barcelona required 80 nurses to work 12-hour days to get 5,000 people tested

Boggles · 16-06-2021 07:25PM

AlekSmart wrote: »

There is something increasingly odd about the current NPHET interpretation of the Covid situation.
Dr Holohan has stressed on a couple of occasions now,that it is HIS interpretation of the situation which is being used as NPHET policy,with little evidence of any dissent being tolerated.

Earlier comprehensive reports of the Irish Airline Pilots Association President,Evan Cullen's views have since been edited,but are still worth noting as one of the few direct challenges to Dr Holohan's increasingly isolationist positions.

Mr Cullen alluded to there being a certain,less than unanimous NPHET view on Antigen Testing,but Dr Holohan's own personal views being the only one presented to the Dáil Committee.

Perhaps the most telling aspect of the current situation,is how the entire Covid 19 testing regieme has now been soundly monatized,with NO Public Health focus whatever.

At some stage,a Journalist (Probably from a UK based organ) will start following the money trail here,and I suspect the trails will lead in interesting directions..

FOLLOW THE MONEY

Wrong thread.

niallo27 · 16-06-2021 07:36PM

Deleted User wrote: »

So you're saying you have been caught out by the first two points, have no reply to them, are now trying to get out on a technicality with the third point (and failing) and have now resorted to claiming I'm terrified and making pedantic points about seats? Listen, there's no talking to you, you're obviously envious of other countries opening up earlier than us.

Of course I am envious, we are a ****ing joke, one of the last countries in the world to open up and you see nothing wrong with it.

Graham · 16-06-2021 07:49PM

Boggles wrote: »

Great isn't it, society and the economy reopening, people meeting, drinking, dining, holidaying, sports, etc, etc.

It's great to see.

Just back from a couple of hours out and about, couple of local teams playing a match and a great buzz in the local beer gardens.

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XI *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XI Read OP For Mod Warnings