The Greatest Achievement In GAA History

megadodge · 13-06-2021 5:18pm

beggars_bush wrote: »

Didn't Donegal win an U21 AI with Murphy on board?

No they didn't.

They were beaten by Dublin in the final.

But guess who managed them to that final from absolutely nowhere?

Straight Talker · 13-06-2021 9:21pm

Kerry Footballers 1975-1986 who won 4 all Irelands in a row

Slieve Gullion wrote: »

Corks double for me. Ted Mccarthy is the luckiest man alive today.

Dennis Walsh was so unlucky though. He started both Munster finals that year. He played in the 1989 all Ireland win against Mayo, he was on the hurling team that beat Galway. But for the football all Ireland against Meath he was on the subs bench, and thus he was denied an all Ireland medal in football. They changed the rule of course years later, where the subs all get medals, but people tend to forget that Dennis was a crucial part of both panels success.

Littlehorny · 13-06-2021 9:47pm

When I saw the thread title I thought it was for greatest individual achievement in GAA history so apologies if derailing the thread but in second place I'd have Henry Sheflin with ten All-Irelands and the influence he had on his team when he played.
But what Stephen Cluxton has achieved is a phenomenon, what a player and he's not finished yet.
And this is from a Meath mam.

Rosita · 13-06-2021 11:34pm

Littlehorny wrote: »

When I saw the thread title I thought it was for greatest individual achievement in GAA history so apologies if derailing the thread but in second place I'd have Henry Sheflin with ten All-Irelands and the influence he had on his team when he played.
But what Stephen Cluxton has achieved is a phenomenon, what a player and he's not finished yet.
And this is from a Meath mam.

Not sure about individual achievements as measured in titles won. Much of it is being lucky enough to be part of a successful team and at the right age. When Shefflin won a 10th medal he wasn't even starting on the Kilkenny team. Is it really a better "achievement" than a guy with 9 who started in them all?

I know you'll counter that by emphasising Shefflin's "influence" but Kilkenny never had a more influential player than TJ Reid but his All Ireland medals dried up in 2015. Doesn't make him a lesser player. In fact he's almost certainly better. The team just wasn't good enough. Is he therefore less of an "achiever"?

As for Cluxton, fair enough, but he's far from the only Dublin player with 8 All Ireland medals. Not sure why his achievement would be greater than the others. Yeah, he's played to a ripe old age but he is not an outfield player either.

If we are to talk about individual achievements (and detach them from the team, ignoring the need for a team to be successful to support the individual player's achievements) then surely Brian Fenton winning six All Ireland medals in his first six seasons and without losing a game must be up there. Or Ciarán Kilkenny - 7 All Ireland medals and has lost just one championship game ever. But again, to go back to my earlier point, lots of players on that team have very impressive records too. Why single one out because of a quirk of fate?

I would concede that Teddy McCarthy's is truly extraordinary, though again as we see from how close Denis Walsh was to doing it, it is always to an extent in the lap of the Gods.

Straight Talker · 14-06-2021 5:16am

Kerry Footballers 1975-1986 who won 4 all Irelands in a row

The Dubs are getting substantially more votes than Mickos Kerry team. Obviously as a Cork man i can't stand Kerry!;) Still though while the Dubs have 6 in a row, i still wonder how a match between the current Dublin team, and the golden years Kerry team would fare out. Truth be told my money would be on Mickos lads. I suppose Kerry could have had 6 in a row themselves, if it wasn't for Seamus Darby in 1982, and Tadgh Murphy in 1983. Because they would have beaten Dublin in 1983, because from 1978 onwards Kerry well and truly had Dublins number. They beat the Dubs and Tyrone with a bit to spare in 1984 1985 and 1986 as well.

So if the breaks went their way, then Kerry could have won 9 all irelands in a row. Jesus i better stop like. A Cork man making excuses for Kerry, what's wrong with me!:P But i just don't think the current Dublin team, is not that much better than Kerry, as the voting would seem to suggest. In fact talent wise, a lot of people would probably say, that the great Kerry team of 1975-1986 was better.

And sure as the man say's hurling requires way more skill to master than football. As John Fitzgibbon would say, any two legged eejit can play gaelic football and soccer.:pac: So i really do think Codys Kilkenny side should be getting more votes. Like it or not and i most certainly don't, but Kilkenny from 2000-2015, with 11 all Irelands in 15 years is hurlings greatest dynasty.

Rosita · 14-06-2021 6:16am

Straight Talker wrote: »

And sure as the man say's hurling requires way more skill to master than football. As John Fitzgibbon would say, any two legged eejit can play gaelic football and soccer.:pac: .

Two legged eejits can cycle a bicycle too but it doesn't mean anyone can win the Tour de France.

Straight Talker · 14-06-2021 6:19am

Kerry Footballers 1975-1986 who won 4 all Irelands in a row

Rosita wrote: »

Two legged eejits can cycle a bicycle too but it doesn't mean anyone can win the Tour de France.

That quote is still a classic regardless.:pac: That quote tells you everything you need to know about John Fitzgibbon.:D

Rosita · 14-06-2021 6:45am

Straight Talker wrote: »

Still though while the Dubs have 6 in a row, i still wonder how a match between the current Dublin team, and the golden years Kerry team would fare out.

This is easy. Dublin would win by 40 points. Kerry would realise after 20 minutes that this was a different sport to what they played, one where the primary contest for possession was at kickouts. After that they wouldn't see the ball. That's the problem with guessing who'd win a match across generations. It is always played in the terms of the modern team. We'll never have to guess how Dublin's players would fare in a 15 on 15 positionally configured game.

Likewise the current Limerick team would beat the Kilkenny team you praise by 15 points.

Also of course the question of greatest 'achievement' is a different question.

Straight Talker · 14-06-2021 7:52am

Kerry Footballers 1975-1986 who won 4 all Irelands in a row

Rosita wrote: »

This is easy. Dublin would win by 40 points. Kerry would realise after 20 minutes that this was a different sport to what they played, one where the primary contest for possession was at kickouts. After that they wouldn't see the ball. That's the problem with guessing who'd win a match across generations. It is always played in the terms of the modern team. We'll never have to guess how Dublin's players would fare in a 15 on 15 positionally configured game.

Likewise the current Limerick team would beat the Kilkenny team you praise by 15 points.

Also of course the question of greatest 'achievement' is a different question.

I don't want an argument, but to say that the current Dublin team would destroy, the 70's and 80's Kerry team, is an outrageous claim. Limerick have yet to win all Irelands back to back as well.;) Never mind a four in a row, and eleven all Irelands in fifteen years. Jesus i sound like a Kerry or Kilkenny fan.:D Limerick are a fine team, but they have a long way to go before they can be called greatest of all time.

Rosita · 14-06-2021 8:03am

Straight Talker wrote: »

I don't want an argument, but that post is a pile of rubbish.Limerick have yet to win all Irelands back to back as well.;)

No argument. You are entitled to your opinion. My only issue with you is the changing terms of reference. You talked about an imaginary game between a modern team (Dublin) and a team from years ago (Kerry) and I answered it as a straight question and then pointed out that it's problematic as it's essentially unfair.

But the same point applies to Limerick-Kilkenny. The same argument for the same reasons. Kilkenny wouldn't recognise the game they were playing.

But then you shift the argument to Limerick not winning 'back to back'. That's to do with achievement not to do with comparing abilities across generations.

Rosita · 14-06-2021 8:06am

Straight Talker wrote: »

I don't want an argument, but that post is a pile of pompous and arrogant rubbish. To say that the current Dublin team would destroy, the 70's and 80's Kerry team, is an outrageous claim. Limerick have yet to win all Irelands back to back as well.;) Never mind a four in a row, and eleven all Irelands in fifteen years. Jesus i sound like a Kerry or Kilkenny fan.:D Limerick are a fine team, but they have a long way to go before they can be called greatest of all time.

You could have left the original post. No need for 'pompous' and 'arrogant'. It was a genuinely held opinion, no more no less. But tell you what - I'll leave you to it. Don't need this.

Straight Talker · 14-06-2021 8:11am

Kerry Footballers 1975-1986 who won 4 all Irelands in a row

Rosita wrote: »

No argument. You are entitled to your opinion. My only issue with you is the changing terms of reference. You talked about an imaginary game between a modern team (Dublin) and a team from years ago (Kerry) and I answered it as a straight question and then pointed out that it's problematic as it's essentially unfair.

But the same point applies to Limerick-Kilkenny. The same argument for the same reasons. Kilkenny wouldn't recognise the game they were playing.

But then you shift the argument to Limerick not winning 'back to back'. That's to do with achievement not to do with comparing abilities across generations.

Kilkennys most recent all Ireland was 6 years ago. I actually think any of Codys Kilkenny teams would beat the current Limerick team. Now Dublins greater fitness and more professional training regime, would give them an edge over Kerry, but i wouldn't see them beating them by 40 points. Players like Jack O'Shea the Bomber Liston and Mickey Sheehy are class players regardless. Maybe i should word it this way. Do you still think that the current Dublin team, would destroy that Kerry team, if Kerry were trained and prepared to modern standards. It then boils down to who has the most skill and class?

Straight Talker · 14-06-2021 8:12am

Kerry Footballers 1975-1986 who won 4 all Irelands in a row

Rosita wrote: »

You could have left the original post. No need for 'pompous' and 'arrogant'. It was a genuinely held opinion, no more no less. But tell you what - I'll leave you to it. Don't need this.

Sorry about that, i was just so taken aback by what you said! I'll remove that bit from my post.

Rosita · 14-06-2021 8:24am

Straight Talker wrote: »

Do you still think that the current Dublin team, would destroy that Kerry team, if Kerry were trained and prepared to modern standards. It then boils down to who has the most skill and class?

No, I don't. But my previous reply acknowledged that the gap between the teams in an imaginary game was to do with fitness and changes in styles of play rather than players being intrinsically better. That's why it's problematic and will always favour the modern team as nobody will ever examine it by wondering how the modern team would have fared under previous conditions. But like I said, this was all dealt with previously.

Bass Reeves · 14-06-2021 8:34am

Kilkenny Hurlers 2000-2015 who won 4 all irelands in a row

Rosita wrote: »

No argument. You are entitled to your opinion. My only issue with you is the changing terms of reference. You talked about an imaginary game between a modern team (Dublin) and a team from years ago (Kerry) and I answered it as a straight question and then pointed out that it's problematic as it's essentially unfair.

But the same point applies to Limerick-Kilkenny. The same argument for the same reasons. Kilkenny wouldn't recognise the game they were playing.

But then you shift the argument to Limerick not winning 'back to back'. That's to do with achievement not to do with comparing abilities across generations.

I think you misunderstood the point being made. You have to transfer teams between era's. Of course any modern team would beat a team from 20, 30 or 40 years ago. The f@@king Irish soccer team would probable have beaten the English World cup team of 1966.........dose that make them greater. Any All-Ireland club winning team of the last decade would beat any GAA Sam winners of the 60's if transferred into that era.The great Liverpool team of the 80's would not survive in the English championship not to mind Premiership.

That dose not make these teams inferior to present teams. You have to transfer a team into an era and imagine how would they cope. Back 30 years ago substitutions in either football and soccer were only for injuries. In general you did not replace players because of tiredness.

The point you are making show you are incapable of understanding what makes great teams and players

Rosita · 14-06-2021 8:48am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I think you misunderstood the point being made. You have to transfer teams between era's. Of course any modern team would beat a team from 20, 30 or 40 years ago. The f@@king Irish soccer team would probable have beaten the English World cup team of 1966.........dose that make them greater. Any All-Ireland club winning team of the last decade would beat any GAA Sam winners of the 60's if transferred into that era.The great Liverpool team of the 80's would not survive in the English championship not to mind Premiership.

That dose not make these teams inferior to present teams. You have to transfer a team into an era and imagine how would they cope. Back 30 years ago substitutions in either football and soccer were only for injuries. In general you did not replace players because of tiredness.

The point you are making show you are incapable of understanding what makes great teams and players

Fair enough. I actually assumed that was the point I was making when I said that comparison between teams from different times was problematic!

Bass Reeves · 14-06-2021 9:11am

Kilkenny Hurlers 2000-2015 who won 4 all irelands in a row

Rosita wrote: »

Fair enough. I actually assumed that was the point I was making when I said that comparison between teams from different times was problematic!

You made the point earlier that Dublin would beat that era Kerry team by 40 points and Limerick would beat Kilkenny by 15 and this seemed to allude that there was no comparison and these more modern teams were greater.

It unlikely that the present Limerick would beat the Kilkenny team of 10-12 years ago by that that margin if both played each other at there peak even allowing for the ten+ year gap. Transfer them and make them an team if that era and that Kilkenny team were utterly ruthless.

The Kerry team were made up of about 10-12 players of freakish ability. You have to remember that the present Dublin team has changed substantially since it won its first of the six in a row. Gone are the Brogan's, MDM, Connolly, mcMahon, Sullivan, McManamon, Flynn, Bastick and Andrews.

The Kerry team that won the four in a row used about 18-19 players.......and that includes subs. 5 players won 8 AI medals and 3-4 of them played every minute of every game accross the 8 seasons. Another 5-6 won seven and again played nearly every minute across the seven seasons.

Rosita · 14-06-2021 9:39am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

You made the point earlier that Dublin would beat that era Kerry team by 40 points and Limerick would beat Kilkenny by 15 and this seemed to allude that there was no comparison and these more modern teams were greater

.

Indeed I did, and that seems obvious to me. Ironically, given what you are writing, I mentioned this precisely to show how pointless comparisons are. Bear in mind that it was the other poster who invited comparisons between the old Kerry team and modern Dublin in the context of an actual match. My point was that this is not a valid context. If people want to talk about achievements (which was in the title of the thread) that's a separate argument.

The problem arises when you attribute to me opinions I didn't offer. I never said any team was 'greater' than another. That's your word. I wouldn't really get into that as it's not measurable and as such is just a circular argument contaminated by bias.

C__MC · 14-06-2021 10:26am

Surely the fact dublin have 6 on the spin wins thus argument completely

Hard to see it ever being done again

Straight Talker · 14-06-2021 10:40am

Kerry Footballers 1975-1986 who won 4 all Irelands in a row

C__MC wrote: »

Surely the fact dublin have 6 on the spin wins thus argument completely

Hard to see it ever being done again

I would argue that the 1990 double would give it a run for it's money. Both are rare achievements. 6 in a row has never been done before, and Corks senior all Ireland double, is the only time that's happened in the modern era. Dublin came close to doing it on a few occasions. The most recent attempt being in 1942. Dublin won the football all Ireland that year, but Cork beat the Dubs in the hurling final, to deny them the double.

Rosita · 14-06-2021 10:52am

Straight Talker wrote: »

I would argue that the 1990 double would give it a run for it's money. Both are rare achievements. 6 in a row has never been done before, and Corks senior all Ireland double, is the only time that's happened in the modern era. Dublin came close to doing it on a few occasions. The most recent attempt being in 1942. Dublin won the football all Ireland that year, but Cork beat the Dubs in the hurling final, to deny them the double.

In 2013 Dublin played in a hurling semi final and won the football. In 2001 Galway won football and got to the hurling final. The opposite for Cork in 1999.

It's an extremely rare and a remarkable achievement but every now and again someone threatens to do it. Six in a row is really unique won't be threatened too often you would think. Unless if course that's the direction the sports are going in - that we'll see dominance of a few well prepared and resourced teams as the norm.

C__MC · 14-06-2021 11:01am

Even the dubs winning three in a row was a substantial achievement

C__MC · 14-06-2021 11:02am

Yeah Cork also only needed to beat meath in 1999 for another double

Very hard to see another double ever being done again,

bucketybuck · 14-06-2021 11:10am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It unlikely that the present Limerick would beat the Kilkenny team of 10-12 years ago by that that margin if both played each other at there peak even allowing for the ten+ year gap. Transfer them and make them an team if that era and that Kilkenny team were utterly ruthless.

When it comes to the physical fitness element I think people overstate the difference between now and 15/20 years ago.

Pre-2000 sure, in the 90's you still had the beer drinkers, the big full forwards and the lumbering midfielders etc etc. But from the early 2000's you were into the sports science era and everything that came with it, you had the Armagh team bursting out of their jerseys and the Tyrone team hunting in packs for 70 minutes. Don't for one second tell me that Tyrone team for example weren't strong enough or fit enough to keep up with todays lads.

Colin Corkery and Geoffrey McGonagle were notable as the last of the well known "bigger" lads playing and they both were gone by 2004/2005, even before then at club level it was full on drinks bans and gym work on your own time.

There is clearly a huge difference between modern teams and those of the 70's, 80's, 90's, but I wouldn't be so sure about todays teams against the big teams of the 2000's, those lads were training hard and training smart.

Straight Talker · 14-06-2021 11:27am

Kerry Footballers 1975-1986 who won 4 all Irelands in a row

C__MC wrote: »

Yeah Cork also only needed to beat meath in 1999 for another double

Very hard to see another double ever being done again,

Im sure it will happen at some point between now and 2090! Realistically only Cork Galway and Dublin can pull it off. Offaly Tipp and Wexford are historically great dual counties as well. But Offaly have fallen way off the pace in both codes. Wexford won four football irelands in a row in 1915 196 1917 and 1918, but haven't won a Leinster title since 1945 i think. Tipp have two all Ireland doubles, but for all the strides they have made in football, they're still probably some way off competing for all Irelands.

Straight Talker · 14-06-2021 11:41am

Kerry Footballers 1975-1986 who won 4 all Irelands in a row

This was before Waterfords revival as a hurling force, but Kerry beating them in the 1993 championship was a fine achievement. Sadly no footage of the game exists on youtube. They gave it a decent effort against Cork down in Tralee, in the 1995 munster championship as well. Cork were comfortable winners in the end, but Kerry were competitive for a lot of that game. Of course a senior hurling all Ireland was won by Kerry back in 1891.

Martin567 · 14-06-2021 1:41pm

Dublin Footballers 2011-2020 who won 6 all Irelands in a row

Realistically Limerick wouldn't expect to beat the current Kilkenny Team by 15 points.

As a Kilkenny person I can say there is no chance whatever that the current Kilkenny team would defeat the team of 2006-09. So the prediction of a 15 point defeat for that team against this Limerick team makes little sense to me.

Rosita · 14-06-2021 1:54pm

Martin567 wrote: »

Realistically Limerick wouldn't expect to beat the current Kilkenny Team by 15 points.

.

Mmmmmm..........last year Waterford beat Kilkenny by 4. Limerick beat Waterford by 11.

11 + 4 =.................

Stranger things have happened when you look at the margins.

beggars_bush · 14-06-2021 2:18pm

surely Roscommon beating Wexford in hurling in 1984?

rpurfield · 14-06-2021 4:05pm

Kerry Footballers 1975-1986 who won 4 all Irelands in a row

For me its the Cork double. The way the game has gone in both codes I genuinely can't see it happening again. The 6 in a row is close but I think we could be talking 7 or 8 there before the Dubs are caught. Surely though you could distill Cork's double down into Teddy McCarthy winning both and that is genuinely a once in a lifetime event

The Greatest Achievement In GAA History

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