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Mother and babies homes information sealed for 30 years

1…7879818384…93

Comments

  • #2402
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Marine Layer wrote: »
    Theres NOTHING 2nd hand about the testimonies of people who were abused

    Seeing as I haven’t read the testimonies, I cannot comment. I can and will speculate about their ability to withstand courtroom scrutiny.

    When I read reports that crimes committed within the homes included incest, you have to query this accusation.


  • #2403
    Shebean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭Shebean


    Deleted User wrote: »
    As Yellow-Fern says, not all the crimes happened within the mother and baby homes.

    We know they were at it in schools, gyms and church backrooms, but this is about a report into the Mother and Baby homes. What went on elsewhere isn't directly related and doesn't cancel it out.


  • #2404
    Shebean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭Shebean


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Seeing as I haven’t read the testimonies, I cannot comment. I can and will speculate about their ability to withstand courtroom scrutiny.

    When I read reports that crimes committed within the homes included incest, you have to query this accusation.

    The report was not intended as a court document. It was a report. It neglected it's remit by ignoring 550+ eye witnesses. They should have gone to government and said due to legal concerns we cannot complete a full report unless the criteria is changed.
    It could have been read out under Dail privilege or something. The survivors spoke and gave their names on national broadcast radio.
    The report was a whitewash and the victims ignored once again.


  • #2405
    Jerry Attrick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 243 ✭✭Jerry Attrick


    Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

    O'Gorman sent an email this week to all survivors which stated the following;

    Your evidence stands as a profound published account of the lived experiences of those who suffered within the walls of these institutions. For my own part, I want to be clear - you are believed. You have been profoundly wronged by our State and by the religious orders involved. The Government’s response is built first and foremost on this acknowledgement, and we have said that the response will not be bound to solely the recommendations contained in the Final Commission Report.

    I assume that the practical effects of O'Gorman's email to the survivors is that the State will have no option other than to instruct its lawyers not to contest the coming court cases. I wonder was the AG consulted.


  • #2406
    mrslancaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,457 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    Shebean wrote: »
    The report was not intended as a court document. It was a report. It neglected it's remit by ignoring 550+ eye witnesses. They should have gone to government and said due to legal concerns we cannot complete a full report unless the criteria is changed.
    It could have been read out under Dail privilege or something. The survivors spoke and gave their names on national broadcast radio.
    The report was a whitewash and the victims ignored once again.

    Read recently that prof Mary Daly said threats of legal action from religious organisations impacted the commissions work.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/mother-and-baby-home-commission-legal-approach-5456553-Jun2021/
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/mother-and-baby-homes-commission-saw-heavy-pushback-from-religious-orders-1.4582405?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fsocial-affairs%2Fmother-and-baby-homes-commission-saw-heavy-pushback-from-religious-orders-1.4582405


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  • #2407
    Shebean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭Shebean


    mrslancaster wrote: »
    Read recently that prof Mary Daly said threats of legal action from religious organisations impacted the commissions work.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/mother-and-baby-home-commission-legal-approach-5456553-Jun2021/
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/mother-and-baby-homes-commission-saw-heavy-pushback-from-religious-orders-1.4582405?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fsocial-affairs%2Fmother-and-baby-homes-commission-saw-heavy-pushback-from-religious-orders-1.4582405

    We've been discussing this. That's the problem. Why put together a report encouraged by victim testimony and then ignore 550+ witness statements? How can you claim you did a report at all? All we are left with is the Church saying they did nothing. A whitewash, a waste of money and an insult to the survivors.

    As clear in my comment you quoted: "They should have gone to government and said due to legal concerns we cannot complete a full report unless the criteria is changed."


  • #2408
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,128 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Seeing as I haven’t read the testimonies, I cannot comment. I can and will speculate about their ability to withstand courtroom scrutiny.

    When I read reports that crimes committed within the homes included incest, you have to query this accusation.

    I don't know why I bother but please provide a link to these reports you read "that crimes committed within the homes included incest". Trying to understand your obsession.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



  • #2409
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,128 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    mrslancaster wrote: »
    Read recently that prof Mary Daly said threats of legal action from religious organisations impacted the commissions work.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/mother-and-baby-home-commission-legal-approach-5456553-Jun2021/
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/mother-and-baby-homes-commission-saw-heavy-pushback-from-religious-orders-1.4582405?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fsocial-affairs%2Fmother-and-baby-homes-commission-saw-heavy-pushback-from-religious-orders-1.4582405

    I extracted a quote from the Journal link above.
    Daly stressed on numerous occasions yesterday that the Commission’s hands were tied by the Terms of Reference it had to operate under, as well as the “looming” threat of legal action from the religious orders in question.

    The potential legal action of survivors – which has now become a reality in several cases – was seemingly not given the same consideration.

    Enright, who attended yesterday’s discussion, said that as the testimony given to the Confidential Committee was anonymised, it would be difficult for a religious order or person to say with certainty that a certain claim related to them.

    Despite this, if an alleged perpetrator was identifiable they would have had the right under the Commissions of Investigation Act to review the report in draft form and make submissions on corrections.

    No religious orders have lodged legal action related to the Commission’s findings, but a number of survivors are seeking to have elements of the final report quashed by High Court challenges.

    A number of survivors have told The Journal this week they are “disappointed” that their right to reply and challenge certain elements of the report was seemingly not given the same weight as religious orders’ right to reply, describing the situation as “disrespectful” and “very frustrating”.

    Enright said it has “always been the case” that the State is “willing to drag activist communities through the courts”. She said “the State seems quite happy to engage in that work as long as its survivors and victims”.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



  • #2410
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,128 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    This Tweet from Dr O'Rourke highlights the glaring disparity between the commission's findings and the testimonies from survivors which the Clann Project will continue to document. How could they ignore these testimonies and not tell anyone until after the report was published?

    https://twitter.com/maeveorourke/status/1402887768242524160

    Click on the 2 picture of text.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



  • #2411
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »
    This Tweet from Dr O'Rourke highlights the glaring disparity between the commission's findings and the testimonies from survivors which the Clann Project will continue to document. How could they ignore these testimonies and not tell anyone until after the report was published?

    https://twitter.com/maeveorourke/status/1402887768242524160

    Click on the 2 picture of text.

    Two things stand out in that post.

    1. Did the 16 year olds family not report the rape? If not, why not?

    2. How many mothers have the luxury of leaving the housework to someone else? I remember scrubbing the kitchen floor the day before I went into Labour on my first. I wanted the house clean for when I brought my baby home.


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  • #2412
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,128 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Two things stand out in that post.

    1. Did the 16 year olds family not report the rape? If not, why not?

    2. How many mothers have the luxury of leaving the housework to someone else? I remember scrubbing the kitchen floor the day before I went into Labour on my first. I wanted the house clean for when I brought my baby home.

    Either you have completely missed the point of the tweet or you have gone completely off topic. Both probably.

    Still waiting for a reply/link on those reports you read ;)

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=117389684&postcount=2413

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



  • #2413
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »
    Either you have completely missed the point of the tweet or you have gone completely off topic. Both probably.

    Still waiting for a reply/link on those reports you read ;)

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=117389684&postcount=2413

    Those are the difficult questions that need to be asked. They will most likely be asked in a court. Will the response be that the questioner has missed the point?


  • #2414
    Shebean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭Shebean


    Why don't we do a report into the homes and include both sides? We could interview survivors and take their witness testimony. We could lay it all out there for public record. People can choose to call the 550+ liars or forgetful but the victims will have an official voice. The church, if they've the brass neck can disagree as is their right. They can dispute it all, but at least the victims eye witness accounts would be on record as are the church's denials.
    I would back an international human rights investigation into the religious orders and the Irish state for their involvement and covering up to present day.


  • #2415
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,128 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Well their goose is cooked now. Fine for Prof Daly to present to Oxford University but refusing to attend the Oireachtas committee. Shameful really.
    Strong words from O'Gorman. FFG hiding in the shadows.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/commission-on-mother-and-baby-homes-faces-criticism-for-refusing-to-attend-oireachtas-committee-hearing-to-discuss-report-40528442.html
    The Commission on Mother and Baby Homes have been criticised for refusing to attend an Oireachtas Committee hearing to discuss their report.

    Children’s Minister Roderic O’Gorman said the Commission’s decision was “disappointing” and he urged them to reconsider their position.

    “Attendance before the Joint Oireachtas Committee would have offered a further opportunity to clarify recently generated uncertainty, along with deeper questions regarding how the information contained in the Confidential Committee testimonies contributed to the general findings of the Commission’s Report,” Mr O’Gorman said.
    “The Government is very conscious of the need to ensure that the lived experiences of the 550 who attended before the Confidential Committee are clearly heard and understood as part of our history. I have stated that I believe survivors, and this belief must be demonstrated,” he added.
    Ms Funchion, who is chair of the Oireachtas Committee, said: “It is clear that the Mother and Baby Homes report cannot stand and must be repudiated. The Commissioners' work has been severely undermined by their recent actions and survivors no longer have confidence in their work.

    To be honest, this whitewash report and the controversy surrounding it will probably do more good in terms of justice for the survivors and the victims in the long run. Time will tell but I am hopeful.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



  • #2416
    Igotadose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 15,494 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »



    To be honest, this whitewash report and the controversy surrounding it will probably do more good in terms of justice for the survivors and the victims in the long run. Time will tell but I am hopeful.

    Sad to see this, though, and pretty damn pyrrhic victory to have produced a less-than-useless report that maybe sometime down the road the gummint and the RCC will possibly maybe do a little better.

    Really need 3rd party outside Ireland to do this investigation. Irelands repeatedly proven it can't, and based on the earlier post talking about legal action due to the Ryan investigation legal findings shows the Constitution isn't really fit for purpose - the High Court finding that it might impugn the individuals in the "Christian" Brothers when they're called out as the pedophiles they were, is broken.

    Ireland lacks freedom of speech and a functional judiciary. Proven again and again.

    "Hope is not a strategy"


  • #2417
    Shebean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭Shebean


    We need an international led human rights investigation.


  • #2418
    Yellow_Fern
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,748 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    Ms Funchion is out of line here. You cant force the judiciary to be examined by a Oireachtas committee. It is a breach of the separation of powers. Funchion just wants theatre, not truth.

    The Commission report isn't perfect but its an extraordinary detailed 2700 page investigation that is as detailed as you will get in the short amount of time and money that they were given.


  • #2419
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,128 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Yellow_Fern wrote: »
    Ms Funchion is out of line here. You cant force the judiciary to be examined by a Oireachtas committee. It is a breach of the separation of powers. Funchion just wants theatre, not truth.

    The Commission report isn't perfect but its an extraordinary detailed 2700 page investigation that is as detailed as you will get in the short amount of time and money that they were given.

    Ah yes, so it's ok to tell Oxford University about their flawed research methods but not elected representatives or government. Give over. The people that defended the accuracy of this report, even though they had not read the testimonies, are feeling particularly foolish now.

    TANAISTE LEO VARADKAR has described as “deeply regrettable” the decision by the Commissioners from the Mother and Baby Homes investigation to decline another invitation to appear before the Oireachtas to answer questions about their report.

    Minister O'Gorman: The decision of the former Commission members not to attend the Joint Oireachtas Committee is disappointing, and I would urge them to reconsider. The Government is very conscious of the need to ensure that the lived experiences of the 550 who attended before the Confidential Committee are clearly heard and understood as part of our history. I have stated that I believe survivors, and this belief must be demonstrated.

    O'Gorman: I will work to bring proposals to Cabinet on how the experiences of those who gave evidence before the Confidential Committee can be recognised and officially reflected. I will engage with the Joint Oireachtas Committee on this point.

    The survivors will be heard. The victims will be treated with respect. The truth will come out.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



  • #2420
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,128 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Shebean wrote: »
    We need an international led human rights investigation.

    I believe you will see that eventually. It's already happening in NI.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40291748.html
    The International Criminal Court (ICC) in the Hague has been asked to investigate the “violent legacy” of mother and baby homes, Magdalene Laundries, and industrial schools in Ireland and Northern Ireland.

    https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-mother-and-baby-homes-criminal-investigation-5324576-Jan2021/
    Human rights charity Amnesty International was among those who called for criminal prosecutions in light of the report’s publication, citing unregistered deaths and higher levels of infant mortality in the institutions compared to wider society.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40249787.html#:~:text=The%20group%20has%20asked%20the,dignified%20burials%20have%20taken%20place.
    The United Nations (UN) has been urged to intervene in the Government's handling of Bessborough and other former mother and baby home sites.

    The Irish Council for Civil Liberties (ICCL) has written to Fabian Salvioli, the UN's special rapporteur on truth, justice and reparations to raise concerns about the mother and baby homes commission report and a proposed Burials Bill that would allow for the exhumation of remains at Tuam and other sites.

    "We have alerted him to the real possibility that the government’s plan to deal with historic and ongoing rights violations will be insufficient to meet Ireland’s human rights commitments under international law, specifically the UN Framework on Transitional Justice," ICCL head of legal and policy, Doireann Ansbro said.

    In its letter, the ICCL urges Mr Salvioli "to engage the Government of Ireland on its handling of institutional abuse allegations and approach to institutional burial sites" and specifically mentions the former Bessborough mother and baby home.
    UN Special Rapporteur on the Sale of Children raises serious concerns regarding Ireland’s history of illegal adoption practices

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



  • #2421
    Yellow_Fern
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,748 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »
    Ah yes, so it's ok to tell Oxford University about their flawed research methods but not elected representatives or government. Give over. The people that defended the accuracy of this report, even though they had not read the testimonies, are feeling particularly foolish now.

    TANAISTE LEO VARADKAR has described as “deeply regrettable” the decision by the Commissioners from the Mother and Baby Homes investigation to decline another invitation to appear before the Oireachtas to answer questions about their report.

    Minister O'Gorman: The decision of the former Commission members not to attend the Joint Oireachtas Committee is disappointing, and I would urge them to reconsider. The Government is very conscious of the need to ensure that the lived experiences of the 550 who attended before the Confidential Committee are clearly heard and understood as part of our history. I have stated that I believe survivors, and this belief must be demonstrated.

    O'Gorman: I will work to bring proposals to Cabinet on how the experiences of those who gave evidence before the Confidential Committee can be recognised and officially reflected. I will engage with the Joint Oireachtas Committee on this point.

    The survivors will be heard. The truth will come out.

    It would be like bringing a judge to the Dail to question him on a specific ruling. They cant do that and I think it's basically the same everywhere from what I can see. The gov and the predecessor of OGormon designed the Commision, buck stops with them for not designing it in a way that suits them. As another poster pointed out, there are many issues using the 500 or so witnesses to produce a Commission report. What would have been better would be use that for a seperate oral history project. The confidential committee report is not perfect but it is certainly not ignoring their voices.

    Worth a read. It is not easy to read but the sisters dont really come across as the main villains in the testimonies. https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/d693a-report-of-the-confidential-committee-to-the-commission-of-investigation-into-mother-and-baby-homes-october-2020/

    Regarding death rates, demographers typically model all infant mortality before 1800 as 40%. Worth bearing that in mind.


    I wouldnt take The Irish Council for Civil Liberties, Amnesty International, UN Special Rapporteurs too seriously. They are very dubious organisations.


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  • #2422
    Igotadose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 15,494 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Yellow_Fern wrote: »



    I wouldnt take The Irish Council for Civil Liberties, Amnesty International, UN Special Rapporteurs too seriously. They are very dubious organisations.

    Dubious? AI? UN Special Rapporteurs? Your proof is, other than the fact you disagree with them. Proof, as in, something you can bring to court and reasonably expect the court to agree with you.

    Or are you simply trolling (which has been your MO for awhile on this thread)


  • #2423
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,128 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Yellow_Fern wrote: »
    The confidential committee report is not perfect but it is certainly not ignoring their voices.

    I ignored the rest of the muddying attempt.

    2 examples. The report said there was a lack of evidence of forced adoption and abuse. Utter nonsense and I have schooled you on that before. That has been rubbished continually since January. Over 10 court cases have been initiated as a result of those 2 conclusions alone. The Gardai have received many criminal complaints already. Aragh I am wasting my time. You have just one motive and truth & justice for survivors isn't part of it.
    I wouldn't take The Irish Council for Civil Liberties, Amnesty International, UN Special Rapporteurs too seriously.

    Ok

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



  • #2424
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Yellow_Fern wrote: »
    It would be like bringing a judge to the Dail to question him on a specific ruling. They cant do that and I think it's basically the same everywhere from what I can see. The gov and the predecessor of OGormon designed the Commision, buck stops with them for not designing it in a way that suits them. As another poster pointed out, there are many issues using the 500 or so witnesses to produce a Commission report. What would have been better would be use that for a seperate oral history project. The confidential committee report is not perfect but it is certainly not ignoring their voices.

    Worth a read. It is not easy to read but the sisters dont really come across as the main villains in the testimonies. https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/d693a-report-of-the-confidential-committee-to-the-commission-of-investigation-into-mother-and-baby-homes-october-2020/

    Regarding death rates, demographers typically model all infant mortality before 1800 as 40%. Worth bearing that in mind.


    I wouldnt take The Irish Council for Civil Liberties, Amnesty International, UN Special Rapporteurs too seriously. They are very dubious organisations.

    From the linked report “Limitations of this report
    This report outlines the experiences of those who chose to recount their experiences. They are not a representative sample of the residents of the institutions under investigation. The Commission has no doubt that the witnesses recounted their experiences as honestly as possible. However, the Commission does have concerns about the contamination of some evidence. A number of witnesses gave evidence that was clearly incorrect. This contamination probably occurred because of meetings with other residents and inaccurate media coverage.”

    It makes interesting reading.


  • #2425
    Igotadose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 15,494 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Yellow_Fern wrote: »
    Worth a read. It is not easy to read but the sisters dont really come across as the main villains in the testimonies. https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/d693a-report-of-the-confidential-committee-to-the-commission-of-investigation-into-mother-and-baby-homes-october-2020/

    Stuff and nonsense. Only to an RCC apologist lackey like you do they not come across as 'the main villains.'

    249 occurrences of the word 'nun' in the document. Some gems

    " the women who had offered the witness a job came to visit her
    after the birth and confirmed her offer of a home and a job but the witness told her that
    the nuns in the mother and baby home would not allow this, insisting that her only
    option was to send her son for adoption either in Ireland or the USA"


    "When
    in the mother and baby home she told the nuns about the abuse, ‘they wouldn’t listen
    to me’."

    "She hated the home and remains ‘extremely angry ‘about her time there and her
    treatment by the nuns’."
    ====


    30 seconds search. So, how do you decide the sisters don't come across as the 'main' villains? Do you agree they were, at best, 'accessory villains?'


  • #2426
    cnocbui
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,837 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Yellow_Fern wrote: »
    I wouldnt take The Irish Council for Civil Liberties, Amnesty International, UN Special Rapporteurs too seriously. They are very dubious organisations.

    Evidence please?

    On the other hand, the Catholic church is one of the most dubious and odorous organisations on the planet.


  • #2427
    Igotadose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 15,494 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    cnocbui wrote: »
    Evidence please.

    On the other hand, the Catholic church is one of the most dubious and odourous organisations on the planet.

    Second time the RCC apologist has been asked the same question. Don't get your hopes up for a reply.


  • #2428
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Igotadose wrote: »
    Stuff and nonsense. Only to an RCC apologist lackey like you do they not come across as 'the main villains.'

    249 occurrences of the word 'nun' in the document. Some gems

    " the women who had offered the witness a job came to visit her
    after the birth and confirmed her offer of a home and a job but the witness told her that
    the nuns in the mother and baby home would not allow this, insisting that her only
    option was to send her son for adoption either in Ireland or the USA"


    "When
    in the mother and baby home she told the nuns about the abuse, ‘they wouldn’t listen
    to me’."

    "She hated the home and remains ‘extremely angry ‘about her time there and her
    treatment by the nuns’."
    ====


    30 seconds search. So, how do you decide the sisters don't come across as the 'main' villains? Do you agree they were, at best, 'accessory villains?'

    What comes across loud and clear, is how these poor girls were abused by the very people who should have, firstly educated them and secondly, cared for them. Their families. Yes, wrongs were done in some homes, but the bigger wrong happened in their own homes. The places they should have felt the safest.


  • #2429
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 939 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    What comes across loud and clear, is how these poor girls were abused by the very people who should have, firstly educated them and secondly, cared for them. Their families. Yes, wrongs were done in some homes, but the bigger wrong happened in their own homes. The places they should have felt the safest.

    Why are you always deflecting?


  • #2430
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Badly fukt wrote: »
    Why are you always deflecting?

    Commenting on the contents of the report isn’t deflection. It’s pointing out facts.


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  • #2431
    Igotadose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 15,494 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Deleted User wrote: »
    What comes across loud and clear, is how these poor girls were abused by the very people who should have, firstly educated them and secondly, cared for them. Their families. Yes, wrongs were done in some homes, but the bigger wrong happened in their own homes. The places they should have felt the safest.

    Do you agree the Nuns were villains?


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