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Mother and babies homes information sealed for 30 years

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,131 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Excellent piece by Mairead Enright.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/commentanalysis/arid-40305245.html?type=amp
    When the Mother and Baby Homes Commission of Investigation report was published earlier this year, many people were surprised by its limited findings.

    The commission found “little” evidence of physical abuse, “no evidence” of gross abuse, “no evidence” that women were involuntarily detained, “no evidence” of forced adoption and so on.

    At the same time, in the separate report compiled by the commission’s confidential committee, we found pages and pages of detailed personal testimony describing those very abuses. It was difficult to account for these contradictions and the report did not explain them.

    Now, months later, we have more clarity.
    What the commission could have done

    It could have hired and consulted with Irish and international experts to fill gaps in its own expertise.

    It could have used its interim reports to draw Oireachtas attention to its difficulties in producing a body of usable oral evidence.

    It could have engaged openly with the Clann Project, which repeatedly drew attention to flaws in the commission’s methods.
    Instead, it is clear from ProfDaly’s statements that the commission disregarded key evidence, and left half of its budget unspent rather than incorporate key oral evidence into its investigative processes.

    It is great that the truth is finally coming out but the survivors had to wait many years for a poor investigation and a flawed report.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 175 ✭✭StarryPlough01


    A huge number of influential and well-known Historians have already signed this form. They are all united in their DENOUNCEMENT of the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes' Final Report.


    https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSe08-7dJRDFnH0WdHbAKJmKMv49CecbwDkiSEOZosbZvjzWsg/viewform



    Mother and Baby Home Form

    We write to express our concerns about the Final Report of the Commission of Inquiry into the Mother and Baby Homes published in January. It was repeatedly described as scholarly and the historical sciences were used to legitimise the claims. On 2 June Professor Mary Daly gave a seminar at the Oxford Irish History series and revealed what we had suspected, that the testimony gathered by the Confidential Committee was not weighted equally with other forms of evidence. It is clear from yesterday's seminar that the Commissioners made no attempt to adopt a survivor-centred approach to historical research, and that the history was written without consulting survivors’ testimony. There are currently several cases before the High Court, taken by survivors who are seeking clarity on these points of basic historical methods: how was the data gathered, how was it collated, and why was the evidence to the Confidential Committee not used. It is troubling that the lack of a clear methodology chapter was not adequately addressed yesterday.

    Professor Daly repeatedly called these important witness statements 'stories' and it was clear from what we were told yesterday, that from the outset and throughout the five year process, they would not receive full professional treatment.

    No oral historians were consulted and, as a result, best professional and ethical practices were not followed.

    Charges of 'contaminated' memories were levied against survivors in the Executive Summary. Yesterday Professor Daly appealed to us to 'Let it stand'.

    We, as professional historians, cannot let it stand
    .




    * Required


    Name *
    Your answer



    Position
    Your answer



    Department
    Your answer



    University *
    Your answer



    Submit button



    Open Letter - 'We Cannot Let It Stand'
    https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1luvMxO8f1vCTIwSq_toJy1-VCUBttr8W7QJjG9oYb6Y/mobilebasic



    List of some Universities that signatories are affiliated to (and growing in number worldwide...):

    University of Huddersfield
    University of Salford
    Maynooth University
    Carlow College
    Mary Immaculate College Limerick
    UCD
    University of Birmingham
    Trinity College Dublin
    University of Strathclyde
    University of Edinburgh
    University of Bristol
    Oxford University
    University of Wisconsin-Madison
    Dr (name supplied) clinical psychologist
    University of Melbourne
    York University (Toronto)
    Triton College
    Aarhus University
    University of Sheffield
    NCAD
    University of Leicester
    Dept of Politics and Public Administration UL
    University of Alberta
    University of Galway
    Royal Irish Academy
    Oral Historian Independent
    University of Sussex
    University of Hertfordshire
    University College Cork
    William Andrews Clark Memorial Library UCLA
    Utrecht University
    University of Massachusetts, Amherst
    Munster Technological University
    London South Bank University
    University of Southampton
    St Francis Xavier University, Canada
    University of Northumbria
    New York University
    Georgetown University
    Open University, Ireland
    University of Waterloo
    Ulster University Belfast
    University of Pittsburgh
    Queen's University Belfast
    University of Bath, UK (1977)
    Newcastle University
    Friedrich-Schiller Universitat, Jena, Germany
    University of Cambridge
    University of Westminster
    National University of Ireland
    German National Academy of Science, Leopoldina
    Swansea University
    Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland

    ....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,131 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    A good read if you have an Irish Times subscription.

    https://twitter.com/maeveorourke/status/1402163077265727488

    Fintan O’Toole: Mother and baby report cannot be left to stand.
    Flawed process deprives survivors of their stories and compounds injustice to them.
    It is now entirely clear that the report of the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes cannot be allowed to stand. In the past week, deep doubts about the methodology and assumptions of the commission have turned into one abiding certainty: this report fundamentally misrepresents the experiences of the 550 survivors who gave evidence to the confidential arm of the commission.

    Maeve O'Rourke was again superb on Prime Time tonight. She has been correct all along. Honest, courageous, intelligent, clear and concise. I wish we had many more like her.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 480 ✭✭MintyMagnum


    This x 100

    Maeve O'Rourke was again superb on Prime Time tonight. She has been correct all along. Honest, courageous, intelligent, clear and concise. I wish we had many more like her.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,748 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    It is 3000 page report and took years. If you want to deep into oral history it would have far longer. The Ryan report took 10 years. No one will want to join such a commission after this one's team was was dragged through the mud


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,085 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    It is 3000 page report and took years. If you want to deep into oral history it would have far longer. The Ryan report took 10 years. No one will want to join such a commission after this one's team was was dragged through the mud


    Perhaps criminal investigations would have been the way.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭Shebean


    It is 3000 page report and took years. If you want to deep into oral history it would have far longer. The Ryan report took 10 years. No one will want to join such a commission after this one's team was was dragged through the mud

    'dragged through the mud' suggests the criticism was uncalled for.


    'oral history' or witness testimony along with the mass burial of children, are what a report is needed for. What this one was allegedly for. It was found not fit for purpose for numerous reasons. It was a complete waste of tax payer money and further insult to the survivors and their families.

    I would welcome a class action suite against the church and state.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,748 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    saabsaab wrote: »
    Perhaps criminal investigations would have been the way.
    What charges? Anyone one alive would have worked in these place when became very humane after the 1960s. Not when the deaths were happening.
    Shebean wrote: »
    'dragged through the mud' suggests the criticism was uncalled for.


    'oral history' or witness testimony along with the mass burial of children, are what a report is needed for. What this one was allegedly for. It was found not fit for purpose for numerous reasons. It was a complete waste of tax payer money and further insult to the survivors and their families.

    I would welcome a class action suite against the church and state.

    Oral histories are useful but not has useful as history (records ) and archaeology in this case. Class action suits don't exist here. I think they coming but I don't think it would work here


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,085 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    What charges?



    Oral histories are useful but not has useful as history (records ) and archaeology in this case. Class action suits don't exist here. I think they coming but I don't think it would work here


    Criminal charges. A pretty long list was posted earlier in the thread.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,837 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    What charges? Anyone one alive would have worked in these place when became very humane after the 1960s. Not when the deaths were happening.

    Oral histories are useful but not has useful as history (records ) and archaeology in this case. Class action suits don't exist here. I think they coming but I don't think it would work here

    Deprivation of liberty, incest, abuse, rape, concealing of crimes: a 15% infant mortality rate indicates criminal conduct alone.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭Shebean


    What charges? Anyone one alive would have worked in these place when became very humane after the 1960s. Not when the deaths were happening.



    Oral histories are useful but not has useful as history (records ) and archaeology in this case. Class action suits don't exist here. I think they coming but I don't think it would work here


    Hold the institutions to account.
    That's not true. They always sold babies and always kept women prisoner well after the sixties.


    Witness accounts are valid. As much if not more that the accounts written by the accused.


  • Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    saabsaab wrote: »
    Perhaps criminal investigations would have been the way.

    Unfortunately, most of the submissions given to the commission would not be acceptable in a court as they amount to hearsay and accusations that could not be defended as the accused are no longer alive.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,748 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    Shebean wrote: »
    Hold the institutions to account.
    That's not true. They always sold babies and always kept women prisoner well after the sixties.


    There is no paper trail indicating selling. I would contend the idea that anyone was held prisoner but even it was case, anyone making decisions is long dead. you cant criminally charge an organisation


  • Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    cnocbui wrote: »
    Deprivation of liberty, incest, abuse, rape, concealing of crimes: a 15% infant mortality rate indicates criminal conduct alone.

    Some f those crimes could not have happened in the homes. Incest for one.


  • Posts: 939 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Unfortunately, most of the submissions given to the commission would not be acceptable in a court as they amount to hearsay and accusations that could not be defended as the accused are no longer alive.

    That was convenient


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,837 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Some f those crimes could not have happened in the homes. Incest for one.

    I wouldn't bet on that, personally. Given what went on with at least one Portuguese orphanage, the facilitation of conjugal visitations by fathers wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. Catholic priests have long exploited nuns for sex.

    I don't think there is any low that hasn't been plumbed by the Catholic church. Unsurprisingly front and foremost in the slaughter and rape of native children in Canada on an industrial scale.

    Hopefully one day this ghastly organisation will be expunged from the face of the Earth.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,748 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    cnocbui wrote: »
    Deprivation of liberty, incest, abuse, rape, concealing of crimes: a 15% infant mortality rate indicates criminal conduct alone.

    The report mentions awful cases of rape and incent, but alike a lot of the testimonies contents, it mentioned it happening before admittance causing the pregnancies. I dont think the sisters would allow 'conjugal' visits


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭Shebean


    There is no paper trail indicating selling. I would contend the idea that anyone was held prisoner but even it was case, anyone making decisions is long dead. you cant criminally charge an organisation

    We have Irish people raised in America by families asked to make donations and their birth mothers who were told their children died.
    What fool would keep a ledger on the sale of babies?


    We had a report put together only after decades of advocates and victims lobbying the government.
    550+ testimonies were ignored.
    The report was a whitewash and a waste of tax payer money.
    The witnesses/victims were lied to by the people behind the report.


    We can assign accountability. We can believe 550+ people telling the same stories.
    We can suspect religious organisations with a proven and accepted reputation for mental and physical child abuse and a church and state with a record of covering it up.

    Those babies in Tuam and Kamloops didn't dig their own mass graves.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,085 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Unfortunately, most of the submissions given to the commission would not be acceptable in a court as they amount to hearsay and accusations that could not be defended as the accused are no longer alive.






    'The Catholic Church is subject to civil law, garda investigators could obtain a search warrant from a judge to access some files on foot of a criminal complaint.

    “There is no reason why gardaí wouldn’t be able to get a search warrant if they were investigating a crime and were able to show the judge that they were able to satisfy the requirements of the warrant,” Ring adds.
    There is some precedent for this abroad: warrants have previously been used to access church files as part of criminal investigations in the US, the UK, Australia and Belgium.

    Gardaí could play an alternative role in helping to initiate investigations.
    Clann Project also called for a standalone unit to be set up within An Garda Síochána to facilitate survivors of mother and baby homes.'


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,131 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    For those that missed Maeve O'Rourke on Prime Time last night.

    https://twitter.com/RTE_PrimeTime/status/1402374033149239308

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,131 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40308026.html

    Data Protection Commissioner raised repeated concerns with Mother and Baby Home Commission
    The Data Protection Commissioner (DPC) wrote repeatedly to the Mother and Baby Home Commission raising concerns about the handling of sensitive survivor testimony and delays in responding to queries.

    The DPC said it was “disappointed” that the commission had not quickly responded to one of its letters and warned that failure to respond to its concerns could be a breach of their duty of co-operation under data regulations.

    In response, the Mother and Baby Home Commission said it had been given insufficient time to deal with the queries and said issues were being “conflated” in the letters.

    The DPC said answers to its concerns should have been “immediately to hand” and that the tight deadlines were necessary given the commission was going to be wound down at the end of February.

    A letter said: “This of itself, unfortunately, raises issues about the commission’s compliance with its GDPR obligations.”
    n another letter to Children's Minister Roderic O’Gorman, Data Protection Commissioner Helen Dixon reiterated those concerns, saying it was “urgent in light of the commission’s forthcoming dissolution”.

    No wonder the commission were so keen to destroy the testimonies.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,131 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    There is no paper trail indicating selling. I would contend the idea that anyone was held prisoner but even it was case, anyone making decisions is long dead. you cant criminally charge an organisation

    BS.

    Enda Kenny 2017

    “We took their babies and gifted them, sold them, trafficked them, starved them, neglected them or denied them to the point of their disappearance from our hearts, our sight, our country and, in the case of Tuam and possibly other places, from life itself.”

    https://www.rte.ie/news/investigations-unit/2021/0302/1200520-who-am-i-the-story-of-irelands-illegal-adoptions/

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,131 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    The report mentions awful cases of rape and incent, but alike a lot of the testimonies contents, it mentioned it happening before admittance causing the pregnancies. I dont think the sisters would allow 'conjugal' visits

    Oh you've read the survivor's testimonies now? Tell us more.

    The criminal offences related to Mother and Baby Homes that people can report to the gardaí include Sexual Offences:

    Sexual offences: Rape (s.48 OAPA 1861), Indecent assault of a female or male (s52/62 OAPA 1861 ), Unlawful carnal knowledge of a girl under 15 (s1 Criminal Law (Amendment) Act 1935); Gross indecency (s11 Criminal Law (Amendment) Act 1885).

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,131 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Unfortunately, most of the submissions given to the commission would not be acceptable in a court as they amount to hearsay and accusations that could not be defended as the accused are no longer alive.

    Many survivors have already initiated high court actions against the state and the religious orders (Sacred Heart, Bons Secours etc). I have posted several of them already. The survivors can repeat their testimonies you know.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



  • Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The report mentions awful cases of rape and incent, but alike a lot of the testimonies contents, it mentioned it happening before admittance causing the pregnancies. I dont think the sisters would allow 'conjugal' visits
    Many survivors have already initiated high court actions against the state and the religious orders (Sacred Heart, Bons Secours etc). I have posted several of them already. The survivors can repeat their testimonies you know.

    As Yellow-Fern says, not all the crimes happened within the mother and baby homes.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,131 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    As Yellow-Fern says, not all the crimes happened within the mother and baby homes.

    I already responded to Yellow Fern on his knowledge of the survivors testimonies. The survivors still haven't got access to their own testimonies but he seems to have read them. Maybe he can send some detail on how the Mother and Baby home commission report details crimes committed outside the homes when their scope was the operations of the homes themselves

    One question - are you happy that the survivors testimonies were disregarded by the commission?

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



  • Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I already responded to Yellow Fern on his knowledge of the survivors testimonies. The survivors still haven't got access to their own testimonies but he seems to have read them. Maybe he can send some detail on how the Mother and Baby home commission report details crimes committed outside the homes when their scope was the operations of the homes themselves

    One question - are you happy that the survivors testimonies were disregarded by the commission?

    It depends on each submission. Second hand testimonies and ones that wouldn’t stand up to court scrutiny should be disregarded.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,131 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    It depends on each submission. Second hand testimonies and ones that wouldn’t stand up to court scrutiny should be disregarded.

    It was a commission of investigation. A flawed one. As I said, the court cases are coming. How else do you investigate if you ignore 550 survivor testimonies? Why did they bother to listen to the survivors? Complete waste of time?

    After years of silence, testimonies were bravely given by survivors and subsequently disregarded. Abuse heaped on abuse.

    O'Gorman sent an email this week to all survivors which stated the following;

    Your evidence stands as a profound published account of the lived experiences of those who suffered within the walls of these institutions. For my own part, I want to be clear - you are believed. You have been profoundly wronged by our State and by the religious orders involved. The Government’s response is built first and foremost on this acknowledgement, and we have said that the response will not be bound to solely the recommendations contained in the Final Commission Report.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



  • Posts: 4,060 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It depends on each submission. Second hand testimonies and ones that wouldn’t stand up to court scrutiny should be disregarded.

    Theres NOTHING 2nd hand about the testimonies of people who were abused


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,837 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    It depends on each submission. Second hand testimonies and ones that wouldn’t stand up to court scrutiny should be disregarded.

    That's the credibility of the Bible done for then. Great, now can we please disolve the catholic church.


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