Irish Property Market chat II - *read mod note post #1 before posting*

fliball123 wrote: »

Doe it say that in the article?

Facebook announced on Wednesday that it would open remote work to all levels of employees once the pandemic is over, with anyone whose role can be done remotely able to request it from next week. Staff who move to a different country will then be subject to local employment laws and taxes, the company said.

It stressed, however, that some functions will have to remain at Facebook’s EMEA headquarters in Dublin.

Workers who move to a lower cost region may see their pay reduced, depending on local market rates, and will be encouraged to go to the office at times to facilitate team building.

So lower pay, potential worseing employment laws, will the dole exist, what about their pension benefits, what about health insurance, will they still get 25 days off per year.

Some folk here seem to think that anyone that moves will be able to keep all their benefits and have the upside on living expenses/weather.:rolleyes:

Ace2007 wrote: »

So lower pay, potential worseing employment laws, will the dole exist, what about their pension benefits, what about health insurance, will they still get 25 days off per year.

Some folk here seem to think that anyone that moves will be able to keep all their benefits and have the upside on living expenses/weather.:rolleyes:

I think most of those people are thinking back to their holidays abroad.
Speaking as someone who is sick to death of working in other countries for long spells, I can tell you that holidays in another country and working are two totally different things.

JimmyVik wrote: »

I think most of those people are thinking back to their holidays abroad.
Speaking as someone who is sick to death of working in other countries for long spells, I can tell you that holidays in another country and working are two totally different things.

I don't think posters are referring to primarily Irish people upping sticks and moving (even though many have partnered up with citizens of other EU countries and may take the plunge). It's more the non-Irish who have no roots here that would likely take the plunge if offered it.

I also think people need to be reminded of what those projected c. 35k residential units we require each year out to 2030 comprise of i.e. c. 18,000 for natural growth, c. 5,000 for "obsolescence" (hardly probable IMO) and the rest reliant on positive net inward migration of c. 30,000 people per annum i.e. they're based on immigration beating emigration by 30,000 people each year out to 2030. It was negative just a few years ago.

Either way, we should know which way the wind in blowing come the end of August and things appear to be moving very fast on this one and the government does appear to have been caught off-guard by its very real and possibly negative implications to their income tax revenues and the commercial market (offices, retail etc.), the residential rental market and the buy to own residential property market.

jill_valentine wrote: »

This is it. People might point to lower local wages, but what kind of city are they getting in return? Dublin has **** all going for it in terms of facilities, public transport, even public spaces. Bins and toilets are the tip of the iceberg.

If you're talking about somebody with the marketability - and now mobility - to live anywhere, does Dublin offer them a better basic standard of city life before considering pay differential than Barcelona, Munich etc? I really don't think so.

Our fairly adversarial attitude to public utility could come back to haunt us in years to come. Dublin's just not a very nice city to live in. Individual salaries don't change that.

Facebook havent opened new offices in these places, they are already there, so given that fact why the hell are people here in the first place if their life would be so much better in Barcelona or Munich?

Another Irish plus for the multinationals is schooling in English which is a lot less daunting for their USA and Indian staff with young families than starting from zero in most other EU countries.

PropQueries wrote: »

I don't think posters are referring to primarily Irish people upping sticks and moving (even though many have partnered up with citizens of other EU countries and may take the plunge). It's more the non-Irish who have no roots here that would likely take the plunge if offered it.

I also think people need to be reminded of what those projected c. 35k residential units we require each year out to 2030 comprise of i.e. c. 18,000 for natural growth, c. 5,000 for "obsolescence" (hardly probable IMO) and the rest reliant on positive net inward migration of c. 30,000 people per annum i.e. they're based on immigration beating emigration by 30,000 people each year out to 2030. It was negative just a few years ago.

Either way, we should know which way the wind in blowing come the end of August and things appear to be moving very fast on this one and the government does appear to have been caught off-guard by its very real and possibly negative implications to their income tax revenues and the commercial market (offices, retail etc.), the residential rental market and the buy to own residential property market.

The ones who came here had the choice of going to any other country before they came here also though. They all chose Ireland for other reasons than the weather, because lets be honest ... the weather is not the best draw here.

Villa05 wrote: »

Interesting that some posters keep digging for the advantages for multi nationals in basing here yet cheerlead one of the major issues those same multi nationals identify as being an issue and a barrier to investing here

Clearly multinationals themselves see the advantages in being here themselves.
Also the staff do too. Or they wouldnt have come here in the first place.


What facebook have announced is simply a policy of allowing employees to transfer to another office in their operations abroad for some workers.
As I keep saying. This has always been available with multinationals.

Villa05 wrote: »

Interesting that some posters keep digging for the advantages for multi nationals in basing here yet cheerlead one of the major issues those same multi nationals identify as being an issue and a barrier to investing here

I'm certainly not cheerleading, just pointing out a fact that's unlikely to change anytime soon.

The mismanagement of the property sector that multinationals have complained about affects us too.

The only winners of the governments laissez faire property regulating are specuvesters who always have an eye on the exit.

JimmyVik wrote: »

Whenever you see "Sources have said" in the media, it should be ringing alarm bells about the content of the story...

Exaggeration by the media would be my view here.
Do you honestly think the department of finance and revenue dont know whats allowed and whats not.

Yes, if Facebook up sticks and moved all their staff abroad it would be worrying. But they arent. They have told staff if they wish to transfer their job to another country then they can look into it. So, no, nothing is any different today than it was yesterday.

Where is there any indication revenue dont know whats allowed?

They talk of possible loss of income tax from people being based abroad for tax purposes - possible loss because its not set in stone yet that people will move their tax base.
Plenty of potential for workers critical to R&D in Ireland office, working abroad for most of the year and travelling to Ireland office for the odd week or two.

JimmyVik wrote: »

Dont panic. The sky hasnt fallen.
This reminds me of every time a new US president gets elected there is panic that they will remove all the FDI from Ireland after some political speech. Never happens though.

This reminds me of before the crash when people warning of a crash were derided as un-patriotic and fearmongerers.

JimmyVik wrote: »

You are comparing an announcement from facebook to a worldwide financial disaster?

Lads, I think people are over egging this facebook announcment a little bit

No, I'm comparing your arrogant dismissal of the situation to that of people pre-crash.

The Facebook situation is a warning - its not guaranteed to happen, but if it does it could lead to big loss in income taxes. And if other MNCs adopt similar strategies, some of the R&D and other functions that workers previously had to be based in Ireland for, could be done abroad with only a small core still in Ireland, and the rest travelling to Ireland the odd time, but tax resident abroad.

It's a big potential shakeup which rightly had DoF worried if it takes off.

yagan wrote: »

Pull back the media exaggeration for a moment it's still a fact that Ireland offers an easy immersion to the EU for English speakers, but on the other hand it is also a fact that this pandemic has made remote working a real option.

We don't know how this will play out fully but I can imagine it being offered as a recruiting incentive and for businesses shrinking office rental overheads is also an incentive to adopt WFH options.

When the single market was created WFH was an extremely rare option, but now it's become an expectation within the single market. I'm sure the tax, healthcare and pension liabilities for workers and businesses will be worked out. This will actually make it harder to farm out work to outside the EEA/EU/Swiss as now the protocols are being led at EU level so loopholes will be easier to spot.

It's inevitable that WFH will impact all property markets, possibly favouring rural/town over city/urban.

Irelands high cost of living (and housing) is the one big deterrent to MNCs and people in general - it's quite difficult to hire at scale from EU into Ireland - the word is out and people have negative connotations about how expensive it is here (rightfully so IMO).

If English speaking staff can work in an English speaking office, but remotely - then I can see many MNCs allowing employees to remote work outside the country for a lower wage - which would still have a better purchasing power in many EU countries.

From employers POV - you still have an employee doing the work, but you save on salary costs & office space. And you can still work tightly together online in the same or similar timezones - so its not comparable to Indian outsourcing in that regard. Keep the productive staff, just pay them less if they are domiciled abroad.

yagan wrote: »

Pull back the media exaggeration for a moment it's still a fact that Ireland offers an easy immersion to the EU for English speakers, but on the other hand it is also a fact that this pandemic has made remote working a real option.

We don't know how this will play out fully but I can imagine it being offered as a recruiting incentive and for businesses shrinking office rental overheads is also an incentive to adopt WFH options.

When the single market was created WFH was an extremely rare option, but now it's become an expectation within the single market. I'm sure the tax, healthcare and pension liabilities for workers and businesses will be worked out. This will actually make it harder to farm out work to outside the EEA/EU/Swiss as now the protocols are being led at EU level so loopholes will be easier to spot.

It's inevitable that WFH will impact all property markets, possibly favouring rural/town over city/urban.

Something I would agree with. And I think it has an impact already. Probably not in the way, and in the scale many would have thought here.