Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XI Read OP For Mod Warnings

namloc1980 · 08-06-2021 07:16PM

Seeing the crowd in Budapest, having beers in the stands and not a mask in sight, it feels like we are on a different planet here.

08-06-2021 07:17PM

SNNUS wrote: »

Big Tony will have a heart attack when he sees the crowd at Hungary Ireland game, some people may question how big of an outlier we are to the rest of Europe.

I can certainly imagine the reaction had we had as many Covid deaths as Hungary.

SNNUS · 08-06-2021 07:20PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I can certainly imagine the reaction had we had as many Covid deaths as Hungary.

But they have the vaccine now too I think...

Klonker · 08-06-2021 07:22PM

Graham wrote: »

As of a week ago:

Hamburg: recent COVID test or proof of vaccination for indoor dining. Hotels 60% capacity mandatory covid testing.

Berlin: mandatory testing for indoor dining. Hotels not reopening until June 11th

Saxony-Anhalt: mandatory testing for indoor dining.

Saarland: mandatory testing for outdoor dining to be lifted on June 11th.

As of a week ago we had no indoor dining, no outdoor dining and no hotels opened. And I'll assume you picked the area with most stringest restrictions in Germany and ours are still way more restrictive. On top of that from 1st June you can enter Germany with vaccine or antigen test and no quarentining and we are still fining people 2k for leaving for a non essential reason, quarentine for 14 day when entering though can reduce this to 6 with a test.

I think you were trying to disprove what I was saying but I think you just proved my point for me

So do you think Germany are being too lax with their restrictions or Ireland too stringent with ours because you can't agree with both?

08-06-2021 07:26PM

SNNUS wrote: »

But they have the vaccine now too I think...

They do. More than us in fact. Which allows an even lower risk approach. Their massive mismanagement up to this spring however has resulted in 3 times or death rate. If only we had managed things like them

charlie14 · 08-06-2021 07:28PM

Klonker wrote: »

Can't question anything here. Everything is opening at just the exact right pace, not too fast not too slow. We don't know what NPHET have decided on indoor dining reopening but when they decide that it'll be the exact right time too. Nevermind the fact the majority of Europe have a lot more opened than us at similar vaccine rates and their hospital/death rates are still decreasing yet they are all wrong and Ireland is right of course.

Hopefully those European countries got the levels right this time unlike 2 months ago when "emergency brakes" had to be applied and curfews imposed.
Probably a bit of a knee jerk reaction from the U.K. to rising numbers in Portugal but anyone returning from there is now required to take 2 tests and quarantine for 10 days.
I cannot see that being moved from the U.K. green list to amber doing much for Portugal`s tourism industry this Summer.

Graham · 08-06-2021 07:41PM

Klonker wrote: »

I think you were trying to disprove what I was saying but I think you just proved my point for me So do you think Germany are being too lax with their restrictions or Ireland too stringent with ours because you can't agree with both?

Actually I was pointing out that the relaxed restrictions you suggested Germany have actually aren't that relaxed. I even included clear examples of where they lag behind us.

Hotels not open, hotels at 60% occupancy and mandatory vaccination certs or testing all over the place.

Maybe that's your idea of relaxed.

charlie14 · 08-06-2021 07:48PM

Chivito550 wrote: »

Not all people who got the vaccine are old, unhealthy or have an underlying condition. Many got it through work, before it got changed to a pure age only system.

You'll find it very hard to, after 15 months, after how many million vaccines injected into people's arms, convince people with no symptoms that they need to get tested, with the possible consequence of being told to isolate for 14 days in the height of summer. Good luck with that.

You have already said that you and all your loved ones are fully vaccinated have you not?
The only company I know of in Ireland doing that is Pfizer, and they were only starting to do so in mid May, beginning with the over 60`s and progressing to other age categories at a later date.
To me at least your story is starting to sound a bit iffy.

Foxtrol · 08-06-2021 08:13PM

gozunda wrote: »

Over the last six months we have moved from a period with very high case rates in January and February.

The whole point was to get that infection rate down and keep it down whilst vaccinations were rolled out. Even with that restrictions have already significantly rolled back. And none of that was ignoring "the science". That restrictions being rolledback are considered too slow for some is moot.

It remains that the two US states which you referred to and who threw restrictions out the Window have some of the highest case, death and hospitalisations rates in the US and that despite having higher rates of vaccination than here. 'The Science" you refer to doesn't seem to have helped those two states particularly in this instance.

Blocking very safe activities is not following science, it close to doing the opposite. It is like having an problem with road traffic deaths and banning all cars and claiming vindication and 'following science' because traffic deaths lowered.

Its quite simple. Demographics are different. Climate is different. Health resources are different etc etc. Governance is different. But what we can see that with a simple comparison of other US states - Neither Florida nor Texas comes out of a comparison smelling of roses.

Can you please elaborate on this, as it doesn't seem to help your case at all? The Irish windy climate should make dining out even safer than many places on earth, I believe Irish businesses would be a lot stricter in following guidance than many other places, Ireland has quite young demographics with a dispersed population, and health resources don't really come into it when there is no evidence of outdoor dining spreading it.

I see no "political" reason tbh. Restrictions relate to the slowing / keeping the rate of infection down. We know that socialising is an issue with regard to infection management. Thankfully with increasing vaccination rates that link is now now less of an issue. Outdoor dining has returned. And indoor dining in the near future.

To not see the political reasons you'd have to have your head in the sand. Did you miss the demands to open wet pubs because food serving establishments opened last year? Do you really expect that if outdoor dining was allowed for the last 3 months there wouldn't have been consistent pressure before now for indoor dining to open?

The science wasn't ignored as far as I can see. Its true that Scientific knowledge has advanced and evolved since the beginning of the pandemic. And we know all countries face similar dilemmas where they must chose levels of restrictions to help keep down the rate of infection and alter them accordingly

Again, have you not been paying attention? Ireland was one of the last developed countries, who wasn't run by an idiot, to move towards mask wearing, they refuse to accept antigen testing, and they are moving at a snails pace to allow free movement of vaccinated travelers. Sure, all countries face these dilemmas but the Irish advisors have moved at a snails pace from their original thinking.

or they can simply not bother and like Florida and Texas pay the price of higher case, death and hospitalisation rates.

Leaving this until last but I don't know why you keep mentioning Florida and Texas. You clearly need to read my posts again, I never claimed those states as being ones to follow, I specifically pointed to them as being poor examples due to manipulating data.

This discussion isn't about the extremes of Irish extreme lockdown and the Florida free for all, there is a very large area in between - implying the choice is only between them shows a weak argument.

JRant · 08-06-2021 08:21PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Blocking very safe activities is not following science, it close to doing the opposite. It is like having an problem with road traffic deaths and banning all cars and claiming vindication and 'following science' because traffic deaths lowered.

Can you please elaborate on this, as it doesn't seem to help your case at all? The Irish windy climate should make dining out even safer than many places on earth, I believe Irish businesses would be a lot stricter in following guidance than many other places, Ireland has quite young demographics with a dispersed population, and health resources don't really come into it when there is no evidence of outdoor dining spreading it.

To not see the political reasons you'd have to have your head in the sand. Did you miss the demands to open wet pubs because food serving establishments opened last year? Do you really expect that if outdoor dining was allowed for the last 3 months there wouldn't have been consistent pressure before now for indoor dining to open?

Again, have you not been paying attention? Ireland was one of the last developed countries, who wasn't run by an idiot, to move towards mask wearing, they refuse to accept antigen testing, and they are moving at a snails pace to allow free movement of vaccinated travelers. Sure, all countries face these dilemmas but the Irish advisors have moved at a snails pace from their original thinking.

Leaving this until last but I don't know why you keep mentioning Florida and Texas. You clearly need to read my posts again, I never claimed those states as being ones to follow, I specifically pointed to them as being poor examples due to manipulating data.

This discussion isn't about the extremes of Irish extreme lockdown and the Florida free for all, there is a very large area in between - implying the choice is only between them shows a weak argument.

The science speaks for itself. Indoor drinking and dining is perfectly safe in hotels but not anywhere else for at least another 5 weeks. It's not like that's a decision based on politics. 100% backed by science, so it is.

Foxtrol · 08-06-2021 08:44PM

JRant wrote: »

The science speaks for itself. Indoor drinking and dining is perfectly safe in hotels but not anywhere else for at least another 5 weeks. It's not like that's a decision based on politics. 100% backed by science, so it is.

Now I am going to annoy the other side of the extremes and say I actually think their approach to hotel dining isn't crazy and it is the type of move they should have been doing more of.

It is about working out the risk and rewards of activities and given the vaccination rates the reward of opening the hotel industry is greater than the risk of spread by guests dining indoors (with the numbers not being huge like opening all indoor dining would be).

The fact people struggle with nuances of different situations why the weak, easy, political decisions were made to be so strict with lockdowns.

Graham · 08-06-2021 08:55PM

JRant wrote: »

The science speaks for itself. Indoor drinking and dining is perfectly safe in hotels but not anywhere else for at least another 5 weeks. It's not like that's a decision based on politics. 100% backed by science, so it is.

Yes, let's pretend that's it and not that vastly more people indoors is higher risk.

prunudo · 08-06-2021 09:03PM

Just curious, are we allowed meet other households, indoors and maskless at present?

JRant · 08-06-2021 09:03PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Now I am going to annoy the other side of the extremes and say I actually think their approach to hotel dining isn't crazy and it is the type of move they should have been doing more of.

It is about working out the risk and rewards of activities and given the vaccination rates the reward of opening the hotel industry is greater than the risk of spread by guests dining indoors (with the numbers not being huge like opening all indoor dining would be).

The fact people struggle with nuances of different situations why the weak, easy, political decisions were made to be so strict with lockdowns.

They absolutely should have done more initiatives like this, while looking at risk versus reward. It's incredible to think outdoor dining was closed for 6 months yet the science tells us outdoor activities are orders of magnitudes safer than indoor. Same for outdoor sports and matches, they should have been back months ago.

I'm certainly not struggling with the nuance of this situation, merely pointing out the absurdity of saying the government are only following the science when it's clear some decisions are being made for political reasons as well.

MadYaker · 08-06-2021 09:04PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Now I am going to annoy the other side of the extremes and say I actually think their approach to hotel dining isn't crazy and it is the type of move they should have been doing more of.

It is about working out the risk and rewards of activities and given the vaccination rates the reward of opening the hotel industry is greater than the risk of spread by guests dining indoors (with the numbers not being huge like opening all indoor dining would be).

The fact people struggle with nuances of different situations why the weak, easy, political decisions were made to be so strict with lockdowns.

None of the people you are replying to think about it as deeply as you do. For a lot of people everything is a black and white, binary decision with simple answers for complex problems. They break every issue down until it’s simplified to that level. I admire your perseverance in posting in this thread but I’m not sure what you get out of it.

JRant · 08-06-2021 09:14PM

Graham wrote: »

Yes, let's pretend that's it and not that vastly more people indoors is higher risk.

I happen to agree with this move, in fact I would like to see the date for all indoor dining brought forward as well. I also understand why they have done this. It's an effort to get people booking into hotels and is a boost for them after such a long lockdown. So, it's a decision made by government for economic reasons and not just following the science as has been alluded to by others.

Graham · 08-06-2021 09:14PM

JRant wrote: »

I'm certainly not struggling with the nuance of this situation, merely pointing out the absurdity of saying the government are only following the science when it's clear some decisions are being made for political reasons as well.

What 'political reasons'?

Graham · 08-06-2021 09:16PM

JRant wrote: »

I happen to agree with this move, in fact I would like to see the date for all indoor dining brought forward as well. I also understand why they have done this. It's an effort to get people booking into hotels and is a boost for them after such a long lockdown. So, it's a decision made by government for economic reasons and not just following the science as has been alluded to by others.

You don't think it makes sense to allow a lower risk activity before a higher risk activity?

You think risk management is unscientific?

Penfailed · 08-06-2021 09:21PM

Klonker wrote: »

Can't question anything here. Everything is opening at just the exact right pace, not too fast not too slow. We don't know what NPHET have decided on indoor dining reopening but when they decide that it'll be the exact right time too. Nevermind the fact the majority of Europe have a lot more opened than us at similar vaccine rates and their hospital/death rates are still decreasing yet they are all wrong and Ireland is right of course.

Have you just joined the thread? EVERYTHING is questioned constantly.

Chivito550 · 08-06-2021 09:27PM

charlie14 wrote: »

You have already said that you and all your loved ones are fully vaccinated have you not?
The only company I know of in Ireland doing that is Pfizer, and they were only starting to do so in mid May, beginning with the over 60`s and progressing to other age categories at a later date.
To me at least your story is starting to sound a bit iffy.

Not once did I use the term "fully".

JRant · 08-06-2021 09:31PM

Graham wrote: »

What 'political reasons'?

Economics

Graham · 08-06-2021 09:37PM

JRant wrote: »

Economics

Hmmm

I would have though maximising economic activity while managing/balancing risk was exactly the thought of thing we'd expect of a responsible government.

JRant · 08-06-2021 09:37PM

Graham wrote: »

You don't think it makes sense to allow a lower risk activity before a higher risk activity?

You think risk management is unscientific?

Sorry Graham, you'll have to explain that first comment. We allowed indoor dining to resume in hotels before outdoor dining anywhere else. That's a risk acceptance the government decided to go with.

_Kaiser_ · 08-06-2021 09:40PM

prunudo wrote: »

Just curious, are we allowed meet other households, indoors and maskless at present?

That's one "rule" I haven't seen anyone abide by myself. People are just behaving as normal all along in private homes.

charlie14 · 08-06-2021 09:43PM

Chivito550 wrote: »

Not once did I use the term "fully".

So neither you or your loved ones are fully vaccinated and you believe there is zero chance of you or them becoming infected.
May be an idea for you to check your facts. Pfizer don`t have a 2 dose regime just for the crack like.

JRant · 08-06-2021 09:44PM

Graham wrote: »

Hmmm

I would have though maximising economic activity while managing/balancing risk was exactly the thought of thing we'd expect of a responsible government.

We should have been doing a lot more of it.

Graham · 08-06-2021 09:46PM

JRant wrote: »

Sorry Graham, you'll have to explain that first comment. We allowed indoor dining to resume in hotels before outdoor dining anywhere else. That's a risk acceptance the government decided to go with.

I'm going to borrow a definition here that might help you:

Risk management can be defined as the systematic scientific identification, evaluation, and prioritization of risks of adverse health effects resulting from human or environmental exposure to hazardous agents or situations, and the economical application of resources to minimize, monitor, and control the probability and/or impact of the adverse events.

Source: Haschek and Rousseaux's Handbook of Toxicologic Pathology

_Kaiser_ · 08-06-2021 09:48PM

Graham wrote: »

Hmmm

I would have though maximising economic activity while managing/balancing risk was exactly the thought of thing we'd expect of a responsible government.

It's just a pity that they haven't been doing that since last summer when we discovered that the level of risk to the overwhelming majority of people in this country was very low, and that those who actually were at risk were also the same cohort vulnerable to a whole host of other things.

Maybe then we wouldn't have a €30bn+ bill, massive damage to businesses and social cohesion issues to deal with.

charlie14 · 08-06-2021 09:49PM

JRant wrote: »

Sorry Graham, you'll have to explain that first comment. We allowed indoor dining to resume in hotels before outdoor dining anywhere else. That's a risk acceptance the government decided to go with.

That hotel indoor dining is confined to residents I would have though makes it self explanatory

Graham · 08-06-2021 09:51PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

It's just a pity that they haven't been doing that since last summer

I guess you could pretend risk-management is a new thing if you really wanted to.

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XI *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XI Read OP For Mod Warnings