Is the secondary teaching situation as dire as it's made out to be?

Geuze · 03-06-2021 10:37pm

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

So what happens if a teacher retires early 60's with the entitlement to the 30k?

Since you have to wait until you're 65 or 68 to get the PRSI pension does that mean that teacher will only get €17k for the first couple of years then then rest will kick in at 65?

That is possible, yes.

Retire at 60, receive the work pension element [this will not be the full amount, as you won't have 40 years done at age 60].

Then the SPC starts at age 66, this was meant to be 67 in 2021, but postponed due to election.

However, subject to several conditions, you may be able to receive a supplementary pension during age 60-67, that is complex.

noplacehere · 04-06-2021 8:45am

Geuze wrote: »

That is possible, yes.

Retire at 60, receive the work pension element [this will not be the full amount, as you won't have 40 years done at age 60].

Then the SPC starts at age 66, this was meant to be 67 in 2021, but postponed due to election.

However, subject to several conditions, you may be able to receive a supplementary pension during age 60-67, that is complex.

My understanding is it can’t be done on the two more recent scheme either?

rainbowtrout · 04-06-2021 6:15pm

noplacehere wrote: »

My understanding is it can’t be done on the two more recent scheme either?

Well no, but those teachers cannot receive the teaching portion of their pension until 65 anyway so retiring at 60 or earlier and getting the pension straight away isn’t an option

Jeremy Sproket · 04-06-2021 6:23pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Well no, but those teachers cannot receive the teaching portion of their pension until 65 anyway so retiring at 60 or earlier and getting the pension straight away isn’t an option

noplacehere wrote: »

My understanding is it can’t be done on the two more recent scheme either?

Geuze wrote: »

That is possible, yes.

Retire at 60, receive the work pension element [this will not be the full amount, as you won't have 40 years done at age 60].

Then the SPC starts at age 66, this was meant to be 67 in 2021, but postponed due to election.

However, subject to several conditions, you may be able to receive a supplementary pension during age 60-67, that is complex.

Geuze wrote: »

First of all, as has been stated already, the 50% of final salary includes the SPC = State Pension Contributory.

Second, it would be extremely unusual to start a full-time teaching job at age 21.

This forum is full of people getting hours here and there, maternity cover, part-time contracts, etc.

Now, I accept that in some subjects that are in demand, students can get FT jobs after four years in college, say age 22 (like Home Ec???).

Third, as stated already max pension is 40/80ths, even if you work 42 or 43 years.

Note that there are various pension schemes.

Pre April 1995
Pre/post 2004
The Single PS Pensions scheme, since 2013

Each has different conditions, the new scheme is less generous, as it is a Career Average Earnings scheme, it is not based on final salary.

Christ, so it isn't as lucrative as the gutter media make out? With my contributions I make to my workplace pension I'll probably have more or less the same pension if I retire early 60's.

What kind of contribution can I ask is deducted from teachers' wages for the pension? (not including PRSI).

rainbowtrout · 05-06-2021 3:23am

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

Christ, so it isn't as lucrative as the gutter media make out? With my contributions I make to my workplace pension I'll probably have more or less the same pension if I retire early 60's.

What kind of contribution can I ask is deducted from teachers' wages for the pension? (not including PRSI).

Pension deduction and pension levy which we have been paying since 2009 (with no increase to the pension) amount to 10.5% of my gross pay. When I include PRSI given that it makes up a significant portion of my final pension I'm paying 14.5% of my gross pay towards pension contributions. I've been doing this since I was 22.

05-06-2021 10:40pm

[quote="rainbowtrout;117350209" I've been doing this since I was 22.[/quote]

This is not true. The pension levy was introduced in 2009 and before that there is thresholds below which no deduction is taken. So while the headline rate pre 09 may be 6.5%, that was not the gross % taken.

With the now called ASC, the amount you pay is not too dissimilar to deductions private sector workers contribute to their pension schemes.

rainbowtrout · 05-06-2021 10:48pm

salonfire wrote: »

This is not true. The pension levy was introduced in 2009 and before that there is thresholds below which no deduction is taken. So while the headline rate pre 09 may be 6.5%, that was not the gross % taken.

With the now called ASC, the amount you pay is not too dissimilar to deductions private sector workers contribute to their pension schemes.

I have mentioned in my post that the pension levy was brought in in 2009. Clearly before 2009 I didn't pay the pension levy.

Not sure why you are comparing it to private sector pensions. The question was asked how much teachers pay out for the pension. I answered that. I didn't comment on private sector pensions.

Geuze · 05-06-2021 11:16pm

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

Christ, so it isn't as lucrative as the gutter media make out? With my contributions I make to my workplace pension I'll probably have more or less the same pension if I retire early 60's.

What kind of contribution can I ask is deducted from teachers' wages for the pension? (not including PRSI).

The PS for workers hired pre 1995 is easiest to explain.

They pay a full 6.5% of their gross.
They have paid the PRD/ASC since 2009
They pay low-rate PRSI.
They do not get PRSI benefits, so no SPC for them.
They can retire from age 60.
Example, start age 22, leave at 62, full 40 years pension conts, receive a pension of 50% of final salary, payable from age 62. Plus a lump-sum of 150% final salary

The pension for people hired after April 1995 is more complex.

They do pay PRSI, and so the PRSI pension and work pension are integrated.

Treppen · 06-06-2021 1:39am

salonfire wrote: »

This is not true. The pension levy was introduced in 2009 and before that there is thresholds below which no deduction is taken. So while the headline rate pre 09 may be 6.5%, that was not the gross % taken.

With the now called ASC, the amount you pay is not too dissimilar to deductions private sector workers contribute to their pension schemes.

Are all private sector workers paying into this same pension scheme your taking about?

Are all private sector workers even paying pensions...

noplacehere · 06-06-2021 12:40pm

Geuze wrote: »

The PS for workers hired pre 1995 is easiest to explain.
They pay a full 6.5% of their gross.

They have paid the PRD/ASC since 2009

They pay low-rate PRSI.

They do not get PRSI benefits, so no SPC for them.

They can retire from age 60.

Example, start age 22, leave at 62, full 40 years pension conts, receive a pension of 50% of final salary, payable from age 62. Plus a lump-sum of 150% final salary

The pension for people hired after April 1995 is more complex.

They do pay PRSI, and so the PRSI pension and work pension are integrated.

Pre 95 is the nicest pension clearly but no one has gotten that in nearly 30 years now so it isn’t a good comparison really to be honest

rainbowtrout · 08-06-2021 12:45pm

noplacehere wrote: »

Pre 95 is the nicest pension clearly but no one has gotten that in nearly 30 years now so it isn’t a good comparison really to be honest

Very true. The last teachers who were eligible for that pension started teaching 26 years ago. Assuming they started at 22 and have worked as teachers since they would be at least 48 now. Given that so many teachers retire in their 50s now, very few go beyond 60, they are in the minority in schools. We have a staff of about 40 in my school. I'd say the oldest teacher is about 57 now and by my reckoning only 3 staff (50+ in age) are on the pre 95 pension. We have a few more 50+ teachers on staff but they started into teaching post 95.

noplacehere · 08-06-2021 1:01pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Very true. The last teachers who were eligible for that pension started teaching 26 years ago. Assuming they started at 22 and have worked as teachers since they would be at least 48 now. Given that so many teachers retire in their 50s now, very few go beyond 60, they are in the minority in schools. We have a staff of about 40 in my school. I'd say the oldest teacher is about 57 now and by my reckoning only 3 staff (50+ in age) are on the pre 95 pension. We have a few more 50+ teachers on staff but they started into teaching post 95.

Similar situation. Very few pre 95 teachers in our school. To be honest with the number of young staff (we've had rapid expansion in recent years) I suspect we have a significant cohort on the post 2013 at this stage

PMBC · 08-06-2021 1:07pm

Its not emphasised often enough that most public and civil service pensions awarded include or will include the standard state pension.
As a matter of interest the 6.5% includes 1.5% Widows and Orphans Pension i.e for spouse and dependent children of a deceased public/civil servant.

snor · 08-06-2021 2:01pm

I have just returned to teaching after many years away. I last taught 1993-1995 so would I now be on the old pension scheme or would I have to had continuous service since then. Many thanks.

djan · 08-06-2021 2:14pm

Can we leave the pension bickering, this is not what the OP asked for.

Full disclosure I am not a teacher but do know a fair few teachers very well. In terms of a career it is a very reliable path which can be quite rewarding if you are in it for the teaching and not the practicality of bullet proof job security and holidays.

Yes, it can be difficult to get permanent hours but out 4/5 of the ones I know managed it within 2/3 years. The salary is really quite good especially when you consider that the hours you would work per year are much lower than a full-time worker due to to the very generous school holidays in Ireland.

Working hours/holidays are ideal for the family and you have pretty much 0 over time or being called into the "office" for the end of quarter rush.

Opens up a lot of opportunities worldwide teaching in exotic places as teachers educated in native English speaking countries are in high demand and in many places make excellent money with accommodation etc. provided.

There are some concerns over the dynamic between student and teacher changing with teachers facing more scrutiny and having to deal with often stupid complaints etc.

Just as an aside on the pension front, it must be stressed that a private pension is not guaranteed to be there same way as a public service one is by the state. Sure the government can make a cut but given the amount of voters availing of it, it will always hold its value in uncertain times.

solerina · 08-06-2021 3:59pm

snor wrote: »

I have just returned to teaching after many years away. I last taught 1993-1995 so would I now be on the old pension scheme or would I have to had continuous service since then. Many thanks.

As far as I k ow if you have a continuous break of more than 6 months you move to the new scheme.

Treppen · 08-06-2021 4:04pm

djan wrote: »

Can we leave the pension bickering, this is not what the OP asked for.

Full disclosure I am not a teacher but do know a fair few teachers very well. In terms of a career it is a very reliable path which can be quite rewarding if you are in it for the teaching and not the practicality of bullet proof job security and holidays.

Yes, it can be difficult to get permanent hours but out 4/5 of the ones I know managed it within 2/3 years. The salary is really quite good especially when you consider that the hours you would work per year are much lower than a full-time worker due to to the very generous school holidays in Ireland.

Working hours/holidays are ideal for the family and you have pretty much 0 over time or being called into the "office" for the end of quarter rush.

Opens up a lot of opportunities worldwide teaching in exotic places as teachers educated in native English speaking countries are in high demand and in many places make excellent money with accommodation etc. provided.

There are some concerns over the dynamic between student and teacher changing with teachers facing more scrutiny and having to deal with often stupid complaints etc.

Just as an aside on the pension front, it must be stressed that a private pension is not guaranteed to be there same way as a public service one is by the state. Sure the government can make a cut but given the amount of voters availing of it, it will always hold its value in uncertain times.

How can you say the new pension "holds its value" assuming full years of service a new entrant will barely get out what they put in. Is that bickering?

But as teachers know there are not many who actually make the full years of service (read through the previous posts).

Going by your example of 4/5 getting permanency in 2-3 years. That's 80% . The research has been done for NQTs and it certainly isn't an 80% employment rate after 2-3 years.
And I also know 3 teachers who got permanency in Dublin... But gave it up to move abroad or move to a different school elsewhere.

Also it's not a homogeneous group. Are you talking about primary teaching or secondary?
If secondary, what subjects do your friends teach... And where?

On the subject of 'teaching in exotic places'... Have you ever had to deal with the teaching council after returning from abroad?

rainbowtrout · 08-06-2021 6:30pm

noplacehere wrote: »

Similar situation. Very few pre 95 teachers in our school. To be honest with the number of young staff (we've had rapid expansion in recent years) I suspect we have a significant cohort on the post 2013 at this stage

I'd say in the last year or so in my place it's tipped over to at least half of the staff are post 2013.

djan · 08-06-2021 6:34pm

I was just pointing out that a public pension backed by the government is more likely to be there in comparison to a private one of which numerous have been nearly wiped out in the last recession. Which, IMO is a valid point to make in addition to the monthly contributions being relatively low sums.

My whole point about the bickering over a pension is that it serves the OP little as they asked about the potential pros and cons of a career in teaching. In response to that, there has been a page of discussion on the profitability of a pension.

I don't think that many would choose a career based on the pension benefits but rather on the stability, work-life balance and satisfaction etc.

Regarding permanency, it has many variables such as subjects chosen, locality and ability. You could argue the same for any profession where you have to in essence "intern" at the start for little to now pay such as accounting or law. People still do it.

rainbowtrout · 08-06-2021 6:39pm

djan wrote: »

Can we leave the pension bickering, this is not what the OP asked for.

Full disclosure I am not a teacher but do know a fair few teachers very well. In terms of a career it is a very reliable path which can be quite rewarding if you are in it for the teaching and not the practicality of bullet proof job security and holidays.

Yes, it can be difficult to get permanent hours but out 4/5 of the ones I know managed it within 2/3 years. The salary is really quite good especially when you consider that the hours you would work per year are much lower than a full-time worker due to to the very generous school holidays in Ireland.

Working hours/holidays are ideal for the family and you have pretty much 0 over time or being called into the "office" for the end of quarter rush.

Opens up a lot of opportunities worldwide teaching in exotic places as teachers educated in native English speaking countries are in high demand and in many places make excellent money with accommodation etc. provided.

There are some concerns over the dynamic between student and teacher changing with teachers facing more scrutiny and having to deal with often stupid complaints etc.

Just as an aside on the pension front, it must be stressed that a private pension is not guaranteed to be there same way as a public service one is by the state. Sure the government can make a cut but given the amount of voters availing of it, it will always hold its value in uncertain times.

The OP has already been back to say he's grand, so there's no harm in talking about pensions.

It's also a bit rich that you tell people to stop bickering about pensions and then go on to post about pensions yourself.

You know 4-5 teachers, not exactly the kind of numbers you need to give an overview of the profession as a whole.

The pension might be guaranteed, but we are also paying into it from the day we enter teaching. Something that's rarely mentioned when comparing it to private sector pensions. I don't think any of my friends had a pension in their private sector jobs in their 20s. Plenty didn't in their 30s either. If private sector employees were paying into a pension from the age of 22 their pensions might be worth more at retirement.

Teachers can go and work abroad, but so can lots of private sector workers. If they choose to work abroad, they might earn decent money but they are also losing out years of paying into a pension in Ireland, so it's swings and roundabouts. Most of those teachers don't want to stay in places like the Middle East for their entire career. It's fun for a couple of years in their 20s and then they come home.

I think you're quite dismissive of 'overtime'. Plenty of teachers prepping at home in the evening for the next day, correcting copies, coursework etc.

And as for this bull of 'in it for the teaching and not the job security'. Everyone public or private sector wants job security. It doesn't matter how much I love my job, if I can only get 11 hours a week and I'm facing the dole next summer and another summer doing job interviews. You seem to be implying that liking the job should be enough for a teacher that they shouldn't want or need job security. Teachers have lives out of school, they want to be able to have a life, buy a house, have kids, go on holidays etc etc, same as everyone else.

AndrewJRenko · 17-06-2021 9:19pm

djan wrote: »

I was just pointing out that a public pension backed by the government is more likely to be there in comparison to a private one of which numerous have been nearly wiped out in the last recession.

What pension funds were 'nearly wiped out' in the last recession?

10, 15, 20 year returns are all strong for leading pension funds.

https://ocean.ie/best-pension-fund-manager/

The only people who were 'nearly wiped out' were the fools who broke the basic investment rule of diversification, and put all their money into Anglo or other Irish banks instead of using funds.

djan wrote: »

Working hours/holidays are ideal for the family and you have pretty much 0 over time or being called into the "office" for the end of quarter rush.

Try talking to principals or deputy principals, who spend most of their summers doing interviews and other holidays doing timetabling, building moves and other fun and games.

Dickie10 · 10-08-2021 11:00pm

Would I be right in saying teaching is getting very casualised? Seems you need something on the side a lot of the time for new younger teachers.

11-08-2021 9:07am

I’m working as a secondary school teacher in the west and it can take a while to get a position where you want it. Maths and Irish are good subjects. Although in Galway they’re are lots of Irish teachers. But also lots of Irish medium schools so teaching maths through Irish would be a good option there. I would take contracts with as many hours as possible to gain experience and after a few years you should be able to get somewhere closer to where you want to be based on your experience. Have you though about doing the teaching diploma through Irish to increase your options to include Irish medium education as well? Flexibility is key in rural schools for TY especially. Some people add an extra subject there are courses for maths, languages and religion part-time. This helps if you want to get work in an area with few jobs / high demand for jobs or to increase hours on an existing contract.

When I started I went rural rather than urban and worked in some really beautiful areas of the country before getting a good contract in the area I wanted to live in permanently. I also added a subject which really worked to my advantage.

If you’re open regarding where you want to live they’re are lots of good jobs in beautiful places, so good luck ☺️

It really depends where you’re based but it’s a great career if you enjoy it.

thehairygrape · 11-08-2021 10:09am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058166582/is-the-secondary-teaching-situation-as-dire-as-its-made-out-to-be

Hi

The usual advise is relevant: follow the path that excites you and worry about job prospects later. The world is changing at a rapid rate and no one knows what ‘jobs’ will look like in twenty years time. However, as a recently retired teacher I’d have a few points that may help.

I’m not sure how transferable a degree in ‘teaching’ maths/CS or Irish is as opposed to a ‘straight’ degree in either. I always would have preferred to get a degree in a particular area and then do the PME if you want to go in to teaching. Perhaps someone else on Boards might help you with that. In a way, you’ve chosen the ‘teaching’ path very early on in Third Level, so employers might look at that if you change your mind later on.

I was a DP for a number of years and certainly trying to get cover for the subjects you mention was difficult, and hours are certainly available. However, getting the hours and actually teaching them are two different things. Often, because of the compulsory nature of Irish, you’re dealing with quite a lot of unmotivated students. Not easy to deal with on a day-to-day basis. Some people have a very rosy view of teaching (blame Robin Williams), but the reality can be quite different. I was very lucky and really enjoyed my time teaching, but I know of many people who found the whole experience very trying. Kids act the maggot, because they are kids. Nothing personal, but they can be a handful. As I said above, you are picking a teaching route very early on, without ever actually standing in front of 30 unmotivated students intent on acting up. Irish and Maths are great choices though and you’d be unlucky not to get hours fairly straight away.

As for pay scales and pensions, well, the unions here have a lot to answer for. Yes, us older teachers had much better conditions and pensions, especially pensions. It would take another thread to argue it all out, but the pay and conditions of new entrants have certainly got a lot worse. Having said that, as a previous poster showed, the pay and conditions are very transparent, so you know what you’re letting yourself in for.

As previous posters have also said, getting a full CID can take a while. You could end up not being paid for a number of summers. It took me ten years before I got a permanent job (had to go abroad for a while to get some experience).

But, especially with Irish, there is a lot of work in the summer with camps etc, assuming COVID gets sorted soon.

Anyway, the best of luck with it.

Dickie10 · 11-08-2021 2:03pm

Your subjects are great but someone like me with Geography and History was and is tough, I told my boss I would be happy and able to teach Ag Science if needed this year as I think they might need someone, so getting myself up to date with the parts that wouldnt be familiar to me on that, have to be very enthusiastic with regard to TY and other extra curricular activities to as well as being proactive on well being iniatives in the school. Principals like teachers who organize a lot of these things and run them well. So as far as I can see you would be doing a lot of things that may not be in your subjects. But to get CID in most places you sometimes need to convince them that you are a teacher that they would be at a loss if you left the school, especially with common subjects, I had to work hard to stand out from other geography/history teachers.

Bananaleaf · 21-08-2021 10:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117372719#Comment_117372719

Does this mean that if you take a 2 year career break and you were pre '95, you move to the newer pension scheme upon your return???

sitstill · 21-08-2021 12:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117783865#Comment_117783865

No. A career break is an "Approved Leave of Absence" so you retain your pension rights. If you resigned your position, went working abroad for a year and then came back and got a new job, you'd be in the new pension.

Bananaleaf · 21-08-2021 5:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117784312#Comment_117784312

Oh okay. I'm a 2010 starter so doesnt affect me anyway, but was thinking of a colleague who might have gotten caught out and didn't realise. Thank you.

God, the thoughts of having to stay in teaching until 65. Really want to go at 60 at the latest - what plans have folks got up their sleeves to get out earlier?

I started an AVC 4yrs ago in case I change my mind, but at the moment I don't like the idea of taking my pension 5yrs earlier with a penalty.

Sorry if this should be in another thread

Triona0 · 02-09-2021 9:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/116510854#Comment_116510854

Hello

I am thinking of going back to college as a mature student to be a secondary school teacher in science, biology and ag science. Are these subjects in demand?

Also once you qualify could you spend a long time subbing before you get work? What is the support like once you qualify? Any help would be appreciated.

deiseindublin · 11-09-2021 7:51pm

Biology isn't especially in demand. If you could up your credits in Chemistry, Physics or Maths you'd be in high demand. Ag Sc is hard got but a niche enough school needed.

Alex86Eire · 13-09-2021 4:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117839716#Comment_117839716

It very much depends on your location. Down south there are plenty of biology and science teachers. Chemistry and physics teachers would definitely be more in demand.

Not really sure what you mean by support. Once you qualify you are on your own to look for jobs. You could get very lucky but many people spend years subbing trying to get some security.

mariaalice · 13-09-2021 5:06pm

Just to say it can work out, I know someone who got a permanent job after one year of subbing, now they have a very in-demand subject and were a former student, the school would be considered a bit rough around the edges I would say the principle loves having a former pupil as a bit of prestige and motivating to the student.

dory · 04-10-2021 9:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117839716#Comment_117839716

As the others said, it all depends on where you live. In Dublin, I know of some schools who had trouble finding teachers this year. In Cork, I know of a few recent grads who did 20+ interviews and didn't get anything. I don't know what you mean by support.You're pretty much on your own!

Dickie10 · 15-10-2021 10:25pm

Is subbing week to week or on the maternity leave cycle very bad? I was thinking if i cant squeez a CID of a few hours out of the place im in, I will probably do week to week casual subbing unless the right school came along, Im farming as well so it might suit that I could go hard at subbing from late august to january then take time out when im busy farming, I would imagine you could rack up a nice few pound if subbing in good schools without much discipline issues.

spurious · 15-10-2021 11:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118026546#Comment_118026546

I already did.

spurious · 16-10-2021 11:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118027010#Comment_118027010

I didn't need the daily abuse and stress. Admittedly, I was in a very challenging school and ended up with the most challenging - 'oh but you are so good with them'. Even to have had one class group on my timetable where I could have expected to use full sentences and a normal vocabulary would have made things better, but no, I got more and more of the same groups. Year after year of that that grinds you down, especially when you know there are 'good' classes in the school that a select group of other colleagues always seem to get. In the end, I had a small health issue which led to me being in hospital and then off work for about 5 weeks. The utter dread at the thoughts of going back made me decide to go.

I never had an issue with the children who took a while to grasp concepts etc., but I very much had an issue with being the dumping ground for anyone colleagues did not want /could not manage in their classes. I can keep up with their progress now in the gangland thread here and the Sunday World. Their threats of physical violence and 'I know where you live' (which they did), I can do without.

I have a tiny pension because I left early - less than PUP levels, but I don't care. I am out of it and don't have that feeling of dread 'Back to School' ads and mentions of the Horse Show used to bring. I am lucky that the house was paid off so there was never that pressure.

I retrained as a tour guide and then Covid hit. You couldn't make it up, timing-wise. Half considering doing an SNA course. Not at all interested in going back to anything full time, but would consider subbing as an SNA if there was any need. I teach a short online course for adults, but otherwise am not working at the moment.

I do miss those kids who came in every day, tried as best they could and made progress at whatever level they could manage, but the other baby criminals who got dumped in on my classes ruined it for them and for me. 'Oh they have a right to an education!' My arse. The child that comes in every day, causes no trouble and tries their best has more of a right to my time and attention than those dossers.

I don't regret leaving at all.

amacca · 16-10-2021 1:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118027732#Comment_118027732

Its a huge pity the system is going that way....decent people with a backbone are going to become an endangered species in the coming decades. Theres no place for them the way things are going.

RWJ1995 · 19-10-2021 2:24pm

Hi all, sorry if this isn’t the thread for it but there are very few active ones on this topic. I’m currently applying to the PME for next year, it seems if qualified I’d be able to teach LC Economics and Politics & Society, then JC business and CSPE. Would the employment prospects for that skill set be any good? Afaik economics is a pretty niche subject but it was taught in my secondary school so I’m hopeful. Cheers!

am_zarathustra · 19-10-2021 5:50pm

JC business is big enough, most students take it. CSPE is a timetable filler generally. A new school might like the P and S. A lot depends on where you are location wise and if your willing to live in a city. There are shockingly few subs in the greater Dublin area, any qualified teacher will get hours at the moment.

Any extra curriculars? That can swing things too, depending on the school and management

RWJ1995 · 20-10-2021 11:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118043662#Comment_118043662

Thanks for the response! I’m from Dublin so would be happy enough to stay here or relocate if needed.

I was fairly involved in debating & rugby through school and college but don’t have any formal qualifications or anything in coaching them if that would be needed

am_zarathustra · 20-10-2021 1:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118047014#Comment_118047014

I wouldn't see you needing to relocate. For extra curriculars formal training is not necessary and you can always do it as you go along but it's good to show you'll be engaged in school life, and more importantly, can work on a team.

Its not a bad time to enter teaching, the population peak is currently in primary are trickling through to secondary over the next 5 years so most schools in urban areas will be hiring.

If your serious I'd also recommend contacting local schools to come in for a week and shadow or even cover unqualified (once you've a degree). As the year goes on schools will be more desperate as S and S runs out.

RWJ1995 · 20-10-2021 3:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118047623#Comment_118047623

Good to know! Thank you for the responses, really helpful stuff. Shadowing in schools is a great idea but I currently work full time so would struggle to get in, might have to play it by ear and try to coincide it with holidays! Thanks again

spurious · 22-10-2021 12:33am

Is there still the limit put on the numbers of PME applicants they accept for Business ?

gaiscioch · 24-10-2021 7:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118027732#Comment_118027732

I feel your pain, spurious, and I've noticed this too. We lost a quite brilliant Irish teacher recently precisely because of this. A young guy, full of energy, beautiful spoken Irish and very popular with students. The management, without any concern for mental health issues, just filled his timetable with the toughest classes while the more "political" staff members, who in most cases were not capable of teaching effectively, got a variety of waffle jobs in the school. Coasting it. Far too many principals expecting teachers to behave honourably and get stuck in, when in reality the principal is taking advantage of certain staff who can actually teach by giving them the toughest classes again and again. Above all else, it really pulverises energy levels, and saps goodwill. You have nothing else to give. Just floored, crawling towards the next break. In the past six months I witnessed a female teacher have a breakdown and it was an awfully sad sight that nobody (that I talk to anyway) talks about. Again, she was given the toughest classes. Year after year after year.

There are so many elements to this, too. "Department resources", while in early career it might be a place to show off your workrate, in reality it's another outlet for dishonourable ethics by school management. The subject teacher who is streets ahead of the other ones is often, if not usually, carrying them. The "shared resources" often amounts to one teacher with superb notes - and by superb notes, I'm really focusing on that private time, that is never coming back, the working teacher used to create those resources - keeping the whole standard up. The principal watches the department standard improve and his options for the timetable improve, which is what he/she wants, because the lazy and less effective teachers are now using the resources, and teaching techniques, the working teacher created. The teacher who does the work gets no credit, and the principal's "encouraging professional development" box can be ticked at the expense of that teacher and of course the poor students who are thrown to the wolves. It's no wonder that the harder working teachers with more experience are generally much more hostile to the idea of having "shared resources" in an electronic format.

And to top it all, and this is incredible to me, the entire system actually gives no financial or career incentive for an effective teacher to stay teaching. All the financial and status incentives are to leave the actual classroom teaching. Everybody, no matter how inspiring and effective they are as a teacher, is financially incentivised to get out of teaching and go into some school admin role. And that says more than anything else about how concerned the Department of Education is about teaching standards. In all the "reform" talk, the existence of inspiring, passionate and effective teachers does not, in fact, feature - and the absence of incentives to keep them teaching is the firmest evidence of that. They could create a system where incompetent teachers are encouraged to leave classroom teaching and competent ones are encouraged to stay in classroom teaching. Instead, incompetent teachers are encouraged to leave for better-paid school admin jobs, while the fact that an effective teacher is effective would go against her/him in promotion as the school wouldn't want to lose them from the actual teaching staff. A genuine fair play to you for having the courage to go. Life is too short.

spurious · 25-10-2021 12:28am

Since they have re-emerged after forty years, I will admit that a big part of my reason for going was the philosophy of the four Swedes, (well, 3 Swedes and a Norwegian) of stopping 'when it just wasn't fun anymore'.

I'm happy enough doing some work in the Adult Education area for now. They don't threaten me or bring hammers into class.

beveragelady · 25-10-2021 8:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069347#Comment_118069347

I haven't been in your situation of having classes of outlaws, but I'm currently in the process of getting out too. I never really had much difficulty with classes but more and more I find the constant extra demands on my time unmanageable. We are filling in copious 'meaningful' reports all year where we're not allowed to say anything overtly negative. We're told we all have to do the same texts at the same time but we are given no time for planning. Every new 'initiative' invented by somebody with their eye on an AP1 eats into another little bit of time. We are constantly chasing our tails to cover our arses (nice image there!) with regards to somebody's hysterical interpretation of GDPR or child protection guidelines or a ridiculous WSE report. We are expected to be available online around the clock. In fact, this online availability has probably had the biggest impact on my decision to get out.

I would be able to get over it if it was was in any way productive or helpful but the vast majority of the extra busy work we have to do is utterly pointless. It's all just in case somebody points a hypothetical finger and says "You should have...." and we can brandish an email and say "We did...technically!" It all detracts the the time and energy I have for my classes. Unfortunately it looks more and more and more like the least important thing you can do, the least significant contribution you can make, is show up and teach your classes. If you're not winning competitions or getting your mug in the paper you're dead weight.

Anyway, I'm going to job-share next year and hopefully get out the following year. It'll take me at least that long to get my plan B off the ground. I can't afford to job-share but I don't really have a choice. If I don't do something I know I'm going to keep driving some morning, right past the school. I'm trying to manage it all without burning any bridges.

Bass Reeves · 25-10-2021 12:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069688#Comment_118069688

If you feel you have time job management issues in teaching these are multiplied in other jobs. While other public sector jobs do not have the same pressure at lower pay levels as you move up the ladder you will come under more pressure.

Private sector is a much harder task master when you reach pays brackets of 40k+. In the 50-60k pay bracket most jobs expect a certain amount of outside hour cover this often can mean more than an online presence.

WFH has made some of these jobs more manageable but previously this was not the case. People often forget if the struggle in one job structure they may find the exact same challenges in other job structures.

I have learned over the years that time management team is a critical part of any job. More is expect of workers in most 50k + roles in most employment areas.

One of the greatest bit of advice I ever got in my career was from a lad that used to fail at it as well. ''There is a time to lick ass, and a time to kick ass, know when to do each any any situation bring job contentment''. One other thing Is not to be around people that are negative about you job it generally feeds on not your own negative taughts. Look at the positive parts of your job not the problems. As another lad said after leaving a job we worked together for a few years'' faraway hills look green''

Over the years I have kicked more ass than I licked. Do not fight the system use it. The system is there in any job to be used but know how to do it is the trick.

beveragelady · 25-10-2021 4:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070369#Comment_118070369

Yeah thanks. The problem is my failure to kick ass.

ethical · 27-10-2021 3:06pm

There are a lot of hard working teachers in the c 50 age group who are burnt or nearing being burnt out and sadly they will hang on until 60 or 65 or 60 whatever it is now! Some of those teachers actually teach and enjoy it but have had a whole load of sh1t thrown at them over the past 10 years and as has been mentioned by a number of contributors here the said teachers get the unruly classes all the time because they are bloody good at what they do!

The unfortunate thing I am noticing at the moment is the young ,f'all experienced teacher applying for and getting Posts ......and then setting up committees in order to get the work done....and who do they go to to get the work done,yes,you've guessed it,the good old hard working teacher mentioned above!

Its unfortunate but ,by and large,all this crap is coming from etb management meetings,box ticking and as a colleague of mine says,arse -licking.How the fcuk does someone just out of college end up with top posts and no experience....and you can bet your bottom dollar this type of teacher will not last the course,they will not be around in 25-30 years time but will have caused untold damage in the meantime....but who the fcuk cares!

The amount of times I've heard 'oh,thats above my pay grade' over the past few years from so called management is laughable.....and do not get me started on the millions,yes,millions of euro thrown at the new JC and it will be the same for the new LC.,yet no money for proper toilet paper!

At times I sit through these days wondering what the hell is going on,and you know what I reckon some of those baby faced assassins /presenters or whatever fandangled name they have,facilitator or whatever are actually theorising and re hashing the stuff done by the good hard working teachers mentioned earlier.I really feel for the students coming through over the next few years.My cat will have had a better education than them....but then again he is 10 next week!

dory · 27-10-2021 3:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118042254#Comment_118042254

Any chance you'd think of primary? They're mad for subs in Dublin. Your subjects are quite niche. No principal will hire someone for CSPE as it's not an exam subject anymore. Very few schools do P&S and / or economics. We're hoping to bring politics into our school and the teachers who have similar subjects to it are lining up to teach it. We definitely won't be hiring someone else for it.

Is the secondary teaching situation as dire as it's made out to be?

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