Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all,
Vanilla are planning an update to the site on April 24th (next Wednesday). It is a major PHP8 update which is expected to boost performance across the site. The site will be down from 7pm and it is expected to take about an hour to complete. We appreciate your patience during the update.
Thanks all.

Is the secondary teaching situation as dire as it's made out to be?

124»

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    I wouldn't see you needing to relocate. For extra curriculars formal training is not necessary and you can always do it as you go along but it's good to show you'll be engaged in school life, and more importantly, can work on a team.

    Its not a bad time to enter teaching, the population peak is currently in primary are trickling through to secondary over the next 5 years so most schools in urban areas will be hiring.

    If your serious I'd also recommend contacting local schools to come in for a week and shadow or even cover unqualified (once you've a degree). As the year goes on schools will be more desperate as S and S runs out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22 RWJ1995


    Good to know! Thank you for the responses, really helpful stuff. Shadowing in schools is a great idea but I currently work full time so would struggle to get in, might have to play it by ear and try to coincide it with holidays! Thanks again



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,107 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Is there still the limit put on the numbers of PME applicants they accept for Business ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭gaiscioch


    I feel your pain, spurious, and I've noticed this too. We lost a quite brilliant Irish teacher recently precisely because of this. A young guy, full of energy, beautiful spoken Irish and very popular with students. The management, without any concern for mental health issues, just filled his timetable with the toughest classes while the more "political" staff members, who in most cases were not capable of teaching effectively, got a variety of waffle jobs in the school. Coasting it. Far too many principals expecting teachers to behave honourably and get stuck in, when in reality the principal is taking advantage of certain staff who can actually teach by giving them the toughest classes again and again. Above all else, it really pulverises energy levels, and saps goodwill. You have nothing else to give. Just floored, crawling towards the next break. In the past six months I witnessed a female teacher have a breakdown and it was an awfully sad sight that nobody (that I talk to anyway) talks about. Again, she was given the toughest classes. Year after year after year.

    There are so many elements to this, too. "Department resources", while in early career it might be a place to show off your workrate, in reality it's another outlet for dishonourable ethics by school management. The subject teacher who is streets ahead of the other ones is often, if not usually, carrying them. The "shared resources" often amounts to one teacher with superb notes - and by superb notes, I'm really focusing on that private time, that is never coming back, the working teacher used to create those resources - keeping the whole standard up. The principal watches the department standard improve and his options for the timetable improve, which is what he/she wants, because the lazy and less effective teachers are now using the resources, and teaching techniques, the working teacher created. The teacher who does the work gets no credit, and the principal's "encouraging professional development" box can be ticked at the expense of that teacher and of course the poor students who are thrown to the wolves. It's no wonder that the harder working teachers with more experience are generally much more hostile to the idea of having "shared resources" in an electronic format.


    And to top it all, and this is incredible to me, the entire system actually gives no financial or career incentive for an effective teacher to stay teaching. All the financial and status incentives are to leave the actual classroom teaching. Everybody, no matter how inspiring and effective they are as a teacher, is financially incentivised to get out of teaching and go into some school admin role. And that says more than anything else about how concerned the Department of Education is about teaching standards. In all the "reform" talk, the existence of inspiring, passionate and effective teachers does not, in fact, feature - and the absence of incentives to keep them teaching is the firmest evidence of that. They could create a system where incompetent teachers are encouraged to leave classroom teaching and competent ones are encouraged to stay in classroom teaching. Instead, incompetent teachers are encouraged to leave for better-paid school admin jobs, while the fact that an effective teacher is effective would go against her/him in promotion as the school wouldn't want to lose them from the actual teaching staff. A genuine fair play to you for having the courage to go. Life is too short.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,107 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Since they have re-emerged after forty years, I will admit that a big part of my reason for going was the philosophy of the four Swedes, (well, 3 Swedes and a Norwegian) of stopping 'when it just wasn't fun anymore'.

    I'm happy enough doing some work in the Adult Education area for now. They don't threaten me or bring hammers into class.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 854 ✭✭✭beveragelady


    I haven't been in your situation of having classes of outlaws, but I'm currently in the process of getting out too. I never really had much difficulty with classes but more and more I find the constant extra demands on my time unmanageable. We are filling in copious 'meaningful' reports all year where we're not allowed to say anything overtly negative. We're told we all have to do the same texts at the same time but we are given no time for planning. Every new 'initiative' invented by somebody with their eye on an AP1 eats into another little bit of time. We are constantly chasing our tails to cover our arses (nice image there!) with regards to somebody's hysterical interpretation of GDPR or child protection guidelines or a ridiculous WSE report. We are expected to be available online around the clock. In fact, this online availability has probably had the biggest impact on my decision to get out.

    I would be able to get over it if it was was in any way productive or helpful but the vast majority of the extra busy work we have to do is utterly pointless. It's all just in case somebody points a hypothetical finger and says "You should have...." and we can brandish an email and say "We did...technically!" It all detracts the the time and energy I have for my classes. Unfortunately it looks more and more and more like the least important thing you can do, the least significant contribution you can make, is show up and teach your classes. If you're not winning competitions or getting your mug in the paper you're dead weight.

    Anyway, I'm going to job-share next year and hopefully get out the following year. It'll take me at least that long to get my plan B off the ground. I can't afford to job-share but I don't really have a choice. If I don't do something I know I'm going to keep driving some morning, right past the school. I'm trying to manage it all without burning any bridges.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,140 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    If you feel you have time job management issues in teaching these are multiplied in other jobs. While other public sector jobs do not have the same pressure at lower pay levels as you move up the ladder you will come under more pressure.

    Private sector is a much harder task master when you reach pays brackets of 40k+. In the 50-60k pay bracket most jobs expect a certain amount of outside hour cover this often can mean more than an online presence.

    WFH has made some of these jobs more manageable but previously this was not the case. People often forget if the struggle in one job structure they may find the exact same challenges in other job structures.

    I have learned over the years that time management team is a critical part of any job. More is expect of workers in most 50k + roles in most employment areas.

    One of the greatest bit of advice I ever got in my career was from a lad that used to fail at it as well. ''There is a time to lick ass, and a time to kick ass, know when to do each any any situation bring job contentment''. One other thing Is not to be around people that are negative about you job it generally feeds on not your own negative taughts. Look at the positive parts of your job not the problems. As another lad said after leaving a job we worked together for a few years'' faraway hills look green''


    Over the years I have kicked more ass than I licked. Do not fight the system use it. The system is there in any job to be used but know how to do it is the trick.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 854 ✭✭✭beveragelady


    Yeah thanks. The problem is my failure to kick ass.



  • Registered Users Posts: 719 ✭✭✭ethical


    There are a lot of hard working teachers in the c 50 age group who are burnt or nearing being burnt out and sadly they will hang on until 60 or 65 or 60 whatever it is now! Some of those teachers actually teach and enjoy it but have had a whole load of sh1t thrown at them over the past 10 years and as has been mentioned by a number of contributors here the said teachers get the unruly classes all the time because they are bloody good at what they do!

    The unfortunate thing I am noticing at the moment is the young ,f'all experienced teacher applying for and getting Posts ......and then setting up committees in order to get the work done....and who do they go to to get the work done,yes,you've guessed it,the good old hard working teacher mentioned above!

    Its unfortunate but ,by and large,all this crap is coming from etb management meetings,box ticking and as a colleague of mine says,arse -licking.How the fcuk does someone just out of college end up with top posts and no experience....and you can bet your bottom dollar this type of teacher will not last the course,they will not be around in 25-30 years time but will have caused untold damage in the meantime....but who the fcuk cares!

    The amount of times I've heard 'oh,thats above my pay grade' over the past few years from so called management is laughable.....and do not get me started on the millions,yes,millions of euro thrown at the new JC and it will be the same for the new LC.,yet no money for proper toilet paper!

    At times I sit through these days wondering what the hell is going on,and you know what I reckon some of those baby faced assassins /presenters or whatever fandangled name they have,facilitator or whatever are actually theorising and re hashing the stuff done by the good hard working teachers mentioned earlier.I really feel for the students coming through over the next few years.My cat will have had a better education than them....but then again he is 10 next week!



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 4,480 Mod ✭✭✭✭dory


    Any chance you'd think of primary? They're mad for subs in Dublin. Your subjects are quite niche. No principal will hire someone for CSPE as it's not an exam subject anymore. Very few schools do P&S and / or economics. We're hoping to bring politics into our school and the teachers who have similar subjects to it are lining up to teach it. We definitely won't be hiring someone else for it.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭gaiscioch


    Just saw this on The Irish Times from last Friday. It tallies with what I've been told from management in my own school. So, as I said here ages ago, apply for everything you want as you'd be surprised at how desperate schools are:


    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/most-secondary-schools-receive-no-applications-for-advertised-teaching-posts-survey-1.4708072



  • Registered Users Posts: 22 RWJ1995


    Unfortunately I don’t have the LC Irish for Primary teaching so it wouldn’t be an option for me. Disheartening to hear but I did somewhat expect those subjects to be thinner on the ground than the core subjects, to be honest I was hoping the JC Business would give a leg up but I suppose every LC Economics teacher can teach it!



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,553 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Ignore everything you read in the newspapers about teacher shortage and other such BS.

    If they were any way decent they'd realise the process is very very nuanced in teaching.


    "Crying out for subs" does not equate to subs having the pick of schools and security of tenure.

    They'll be disposed of pretty quick once the system has had their way with them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭gaiscioch


    Just saw a History job on a VTOS scheme on Educationposts.ie for LouthMeath ETB. It was for 4.5 hours, covering a maternity leave. Or, rather, it was a vacancy to be put on a panel where 4.5 hours per week of teaching might appear at some stage.


    The application form is 14-pages long, ten pages of which have to be filled out with specific information and examples for that specific 4.5-hour possible post. Here's the application form (E448): http://www.etbjobs.ie/index.cfm/section/job_results/


    These complete pisstakers and dossers in LMETB deserve nothing but contempt for this. Ironically, Norma Foley is on RTÉ Radio 1 this minute talking about the shortage of teachers and the difficulty they have recruiting teachers. What a joke, disconnected, system bristling with disrespect and contempt for job-seeking teachers. Now, will any journalist highlight these miserable hours and these pfo application forms?



  • Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭WWMRD


    "Unfortunately it looks more and more and more like the least important thing you can do, the least significant contribution you can make, is show up and teach your classes"

    THIS 100%

    The absolute guilt I feel when I just want to teach my classes and not get involved in another strategic committee set up by management but actually run by their favourites.

    If I was in the position to jobshare I would do it in a heartbeat. Unfortunately I left another career to go into teaching.... I'm really questioning that now!



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,553 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Anyone get the sense the Bull5h1t Buzzword Bingo is on the way back.


    I wonder how some brilliant teachers I had decades ago survived without "the latest and greatest thing in education is taking the world by storm". We're they all really that deficient without these teaching methods, would Socrates himself feel humbled in the presence of facilitator greatness during a JCT cluster meeting?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭2011abc


    Fairly old teacher here .Theres a skip outside our school at the moment with a few 'overhead projectors' which were used to show handwritten images of 'acetate' sheets on a screen ...Real 1990s cutting edge teacher stuff...There's been a fair few 'innovations' since then . Ive survived them all so far .Was seriously tempted to take a hammer to the glass screen of the cast out device.I even showed it to a few students . Of course I can use the equivalent digital device today (PC with a big tv screen/data projector etc-the 'interactive whiteboard' was another bs cul de sac that must have enriched the wholesalers if not the kids' lives )If you dont have a healthy disdain for all this hardware you wont survive two let alone three decades(or the four the govt want you to which is frankly ludicrous) .A teacher with a textbook in their hands ...youve either got it or ya aint ?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,107 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    God forbid there would be a power cut. The terror.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,140 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    While you might think that working 40+ years on an industry is ludicrous it is what is expected in all other industries. I agree with everything else you posted. However if you think you cannot survive 50 years in any industry you must start making provisions when you are you ger to retire early.

    Gardai, nurses, prison officers now all cannot retire before 65. You can however make you own provisions. Most do not.

    Retirement in your 50"s is very demanding. You lose a lot of social contact. However early retirement means you will have less that if you work until normal retirement age. Very few are willing to accept that

    Slava Ukrainii



Advertisement