Hurling- what’s gone wrong and where do we go from here.

Sunny Disposition · 06-06-2021 12:26am #1

Hurling as we used to know it is gone.

Kelly scored a point today from well inside his own 45. In almost no case is allowing play to continue more of an advantage than a free, almost never, because frees are so scoreable.

The ball is just not suitable, a heavier one is needed if inter county hurling is to be worth watching again. Limerick got 30 something points today and around 20 wides. Ball is only ever in play without a break for a few seconds now.

Lot of skills are seen rarely any more, hooking for example. Defensive skills are not focused on, backs only roles now are to prevent goals and to keep possession. No role for ground hurling because everyone just wants to keep possession.

There has been a lot of tinkering with the rules, most of it led by self important, arrogant former players, they’ve given us yellow sliotairs, unmissable penalties, new punishment for cynical fouling, but no improvement in the game at all.

I can’t see how anyone would think hurling is better now than ten years ago, despite a massive amount of tinkering, most of it utterly reactive to the issue of the day and half thought through.

There was too much eulogising of the game for a long time also, telling us good games were the greatest ever, that type of hyperbole.

This is mot the great game we once had.

So what can be done? The first thing is to come up with a committee on the crisis, but one not dominated by the usual suspects, and not all former county players. The Donal Og’s need to be sidelined now. This would work for three years, take sounding from ALL stakeholders, figure out what is worth keeping from the contemporary game, what has been lost and needs to be restored.

After that we need a GAA willing to stand behind changes, not pander again and again to people whingeing. And the organisation needs to realise that even in an era of short attention spans, people won’t be entertained by games where every few seconds there’s a score, it just doesn’t work as well as the game we used to enjoy.

My youngest lad is still very small and couldn’t watch a game yet.

But if it stays as it is why would he ever become a hurling fanatic like the last two generations of his family?

Slieve Gullion · 06-06-2021 3:05am

Never post here again you clown.

[Deleted User] · 06-06-2021 6:45pm

Unfortunately its true. The skill level of players in combination with the sliotar is now such that scoring is too easy. Many games now resemble basketball such is the ease of scoring, exempt with 3 pointers from the halfway and endless free throws. Tony Kelly is a great player, but 20 points! Possession alone, rather than the skills that made the game great, is enough to put up a big score.

Time to redress the risk reward balance. Heavier sliotar? 5 point goal? Both? Something needs to change.

Jizique · 06-06-2021 7:07pm

raind wrote: »

Unfortunately its true. The skill level of players in combination with the sliotar is now such that scoring is too easy. Many games now resemble basketball such is the ease of scoring, exempt with 3 pointers from the halfway and endless free throws. Tony Kelly is a great player, but 20 points! Possession alone, rather than the skills that made the game great, is enough to put up a big score.

Time to redress the risk reward balance. Heavier sliotar? 5 point goal? Both? Something needs to change.

Wasn’t much wrong with today’s game; even last night, allowing for limerick’s dominance was better than some recent offerings.
Would a heavier sliotar not turn it into an even more physical battle?

zetecescort · 06-06-2021 7:09pm

Not sure what the answer is but making a goal worth 4 or 5 points would surely only lead to more sweepers and cynical fouling?

Realt Dearg Sec · 06-06-2021 7:15pm

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

After that we need a GAA willing to stand behind changes, not pander again and again to people whingeing.

You make a lot of good points here but you'd have to admit this was pretty funny.

Wrinkly runner · 06-06-2021 7:20pm

I heard some clown on newstalk today reading out a text saying limerick are ruining hurling with this tip tappy Barcelona type passing.
Someone texted in,there should be a limit on the amount of hand passes allowed.
What's next.Start limerick -5 points before throw in.

One_More_Mile · 06-06-2021 7:24pm

Wrinkly runner wrote: »

I heard some clown on newstalk today reading out a text saying limerick are ruining hurling with this tip tappy Barcelona type passing.
Someone texted in,there should be a limit on the amount of hand passes allowed.
What's next.Start limerick -5 points before throw in.

My team can't keep up so ye are ruining the game. Ye are bigger and stronger than my team so maybe we should make it tag hurling

Rosita · 06-06-2021 7:28pm

Wrinkly runner wrote: »

I heard some clown on newstalk today reading out a text saying limerick are ruining hurling with this tip tappy Barcelona type passing.
Someone texted in,there should be a limit on the amount of hand passes allowed.
What's next.Start limerick -5 points before throw in.

The Limerick starting 5 points down is a bit of leap isn't it? The suggestion you mention regarding handpassing presumably was meant to apply to all teams?

Wrinkly runner · 06-06-2021 7:37pm

Rosita wrote: »

The Limerick starting 5 points down is a bit of leap isn't it? The suggestion you mention regarding handpassing presumably was meant to apply to all teams?

Yes,but obviously a means to curtail limerick.

Rosita · 06-06-2021 7:50pm

Wrinkly runner wrote: »

Yes,but obviously a means to curtail limerick.

But why should it matter to them if they are on a level playing field with other teams? Any change should suit better teams?

Pete_Cavan · 06-06-2021 7:57pm

Change the core density so that the 65 is about the limit for scoring from.

Wrinkly runner · 06-06-2021 8:04pm

Rosita wrote: »

But why should it matter to them if they are on a level playing field with other teams? Any change should suit better teams?

It's clear as day limerick are streets ahead when it comes to the hand passing side of the game.
It's like telling Barcelona,after 5 short passes you foul.
To be honest I was shocked the newstalk lads even read out the text.

Rosita · 06-06-2021 8:27pm

Wrinkly runner wrote: »

It's clear as day limerick are streets ahead when it comes to the hand passing side of the game.
It's like telling Barcelona,after 5 short passes you foul.
To be honest I was shocked the newstalk lads even read out the text.

I wouldn't worry about the reading out of the text. We're not in North Korea. It's just an opinion. I'd be more concerned if opinions were suppressed just because they don't suit people.

randd1 · 06-06-2021 8:38pm

- Increase weight of the sliothar by 33%.
- Remove sin bin, instead have a rule to give a penalty for pulls down within 30 yards of the goal.
- Where the hand pass comes from the ball released from the hand, the receiving player can’t catch it. All other forms of passing are ok.
- 40 seconds to take a dead ball
- 6 subs allowed, but no more than 4 a half
- No subs allowed after time moves into injury time
- Reduce and standardize the size of the bás. Any player found in breach received an immediate 2 match ban.

Worth trying out I reckon.

TheMilkyPirate · 06-06-2021 8:53pm

randd1 wrote: »

- Increase weight of the sliothar by 33%.
- Remove sin bin, instead have a rule to give a penalty for pulls down within 30 yards of the goal.
- Where the hand pass comes from the ball released from the hand, the receiving player can’t catch it. All other forms of passing are ok.
- 40 seconds to take a dead ball
- 6 subs allowed, but no more than 4 a half
- No subs allowed after time moves into injury time
- Reduce and standardize the size of the bás. Any player found in breach received an immediate 2 match ban.

Worth trying out I reckon.

Not disagreeing but why 33%? And why not catch it after a hand pass? Surely only 3 hand passes and then has to be off the hurl would be better

WesternZulu · 06-06-2021 8:56pm

Half the problem is that hurling fans are so reluctant to criticise the game that ultimately nothing worthwhile will change. Phrases like there is no such thing as a bad game of hurling only stunt its progress.

Football suffers from the other end of the spectrum where people are almost afraid to praise the game and consequently a whole raft of stupid rule changes have been brought to the sport in recent years.

[Deleted User] · 06-06-2021 8:58pm

What did OP think of the Galway-Waterford game? 7-51 scored and only 8 points from frees

Davys Fits · 06-06-2021 9:11pm

For me the handpass is the medium for the frenzy that is the possession game. Like Gaelic football it allows players to keep possession too easily. People will point to great scores made by hanpasses and slick moves but its not really a great skill, the handpass from the same hand that is. So change or remove it and the game will have less spare hand fouls, more turnovers, more intensity and the ball stays in play longer. If we increase the ball weight the hurley bas will get bigger. Surely at at some point the size of a hurley bas needs to be regulated?
.

Jizique · 06-06-2021 9:29pm

Edz87 wrote: »

What did OP think of the Galway-Waterford game? 7-51 scored and only 8 points from frees

As mentioned earlier, I definitely enjoyed it; if refs blow for all fouls, players will be less prone to foul and give away a 100% score from almost anywhere

puzl · 06-06-2021 9:44pm

I thought Donal Og actually made a very astute point yesterday. The rules of the game are designed such that every 4 steps minimum the ball has to be in play and available for a tackle or interception. When a forward wants to go around a defender he has to time it to protect the ball when he has to play it. The defender has to stand his ground and force the steps and be ready to tackle. But nowadays that's gone....the forward barges and gets tangled up and pins his marker's hurley under his elbow or drops to make the tackle high. The defender is mauling the forward like he's slow dancing at a gaa club disco. the whistle blows and it's a free score for whomever was lucky enough to be judged to have been fouled. Truth is there was probably half a dozen fouls in as many seconds. People talk about changing rules but if we don't actually implement the current rules why do you think new ones we won't implement will help?

Sunny Disposition · 06-06-2021 10:05pm

Edz87 wrote: »

What did OP think of the Galway-Waterford game? 7-51 scored and only 8 points from frees

Listened to some of it on the radio. The OH is going watching Netflix now and I’m not going arguing, will watch League Sunday again but not that pushed.
On the radio Mullane said the ball has to change, it’s gone way too easy score from distance. He also said that the white ball is better than the yellow one, which I’d agree with.
IMO the fact it’s easier to score from range is a big factor that all county teams focus so much on possession now. If you lose the ball, anywhere on the field, there’s a really good chance of conceding a score a few seconds later.

Sunny Disposition · 06-06-2021 10:15pm

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

You make a lot of good points here but you'd have to admit this was pretty funny.

The colour of the ball was changed, penalty went from three on the line to one, dismissals for fouls preventing goal chances, all attempts to appease the hurling virtue signallers.
Another factor in the decline of the game has been talk about how great it is, even when it is not. Middling games have been showered in ludicrous levels of praise. County players have been elevated to demigod status, blessed with the discipline of Gandhi and the genius of Michaelangelo.

Sunny Disposition · 06-06-2021 10:19pm

Jizique wrote: »

As mentioned earlier, I definitely enjoyed it; if refs blow for all fouls, players will be less prone to foul and give away a 100% score from almost anywhere

A really annoying trait of recent years is refs signalling for an advantage when there is no goal chance and it’s far easier to score a point from a free than from play.
The way it’s being reffed this year is actually a step in the right direction, giving advantages to players who are fouled rather. For the last four-five years this awful refereeing was excused with facile ‘let the game flow’ semi-logic.

[Deleted User] · 06-06-2021 10:26pm

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Listened to some of it on the radio. The OH is going watching Netflix now and I’m not going arguing, will watch League Sunday again but not that pushed.
On the radio Mullane said the ball has to change, it’s gone way too easy score from distance. He also said that the white ball is better than the yellow one, which I’d agree with.
IMO the fact it’s easier to score from range is a big factor that all county teams focus so much on possession now. If you lose the ball, anywhere on the field, there’s a really good chance of conceding a score a few seconds later.

The reason county teams focus so much on possession is the lack of quality ball winning ability

Hurling has something like 97 or 98 different skills,so basic ball winning in air suffers in coaching terms......a mixture of physique/reffing quality stifles this coming trough from underage to senior

A lad can win primary possession and be bottled up to likely give away a free upon landing,the "mark" rule wouldnt be appropriate as it would amount to a score and cause even bigger issues.....

.a reasonable protection/acceptance of charging for the landing ball winner to keep game flowing would be a fair compromise.....(afaik this is how wexford won several all irelands in the 50s)

threeball · 06-06-2021 10:28pm

There's very little wrong with hurling and progression of tactics is inevitable. I believe the crack down on spare hand fouls is correct and should continue indefinitely. Teams will cop on to it quickly and it will disappear from the game. The slapping of elbows, forearms and hands needs to be stopped too. Take those out and enforce the steps rule and we'll start to take alot of the issues out of the game.

I'm not sure why people are so up in arms about high scoring. Todays game was exceptionally exciting and very high scoring. Had it been played in front of 30,000 the place would have erupted. The drawn Clare Galway semi in 2018 was similar in terms of being end to end. Heavier sliothars are just dangerous and a heavy ball will actually carry further if struck well so that will solve nothing. If anything its probably too heavy and easy to control. Its harder to control a kids sliothar than a size 5.

The reality is, up to the 80s hurling was played by lads who went to work, trained an hour a day if that when they came home and played a game at the weekend. Now its played by guys who are being coached heavily from 6yrs old, when they reach the next level theyre doing 2hrs hurling and an hours S&C per day and playing more games. Theyre just better players due to being much closer to professionalism. The mistakes are less and the quality of coaching and tactics is higher. You can yearn for the days of yore but hurling isn't ever going back.

Clareman · 06-06-2021 10:39pm

The big thing for me is the ball is so easy to drive a long distance, this is down to a lot of factors (size/weight of the ball, quality of hurleys, strength of players), the easiest fix for me would be to increase the ridges on the ball, it's almost smooth now which makes it a lot easier to drive further.

After this, the game has way too many scorable frees, should look to bring in some kind of indirect free where you can't score directly from certain types of frees. Another thing that could be tried is to ban too many hand passes or the ball being played backwards, once the ball goes past a line it can't be played backwards over the line again.

For me however the biggest blight on the game is the persistent fouling, the tactics now is the condense the play as much as possible but if you lose possession or your opponent gets past you you then foul but tugging or pulling. I also think that there's a need for 2 refs, the game is too fast now that 1 person can't be expected to ref it on their own.

Rosita · 06-06-2021 10:54pm

Clareman wrote: »

After this, the game has way too many scorable frees, should look to bring in some kind of indirect free where you can't score directly from certain types of frees.
/QUOTE]

I acknowledge and agree with what you are trying to achieve with this but indirect frees would only reward fouling.

Rosita · 06-06-2021 10:58pm

threeball wrote: »

You can yearn for the days of yore but hurling isn't ever going back.

Not sure this is helpful. Plenty of people have raised legitimate points that are worthy of consideration. This smacks of the Dónal Óg thing of 'I'm great because I love change'. It's a bit more nuanced I think.

threeball · 06-06-2021 11:13pm

Rosita wrote: »

Not sure this is helpful. Plenty of people have raised legitimate points that are worthy of consideration. This smacks of the Dónal Óg thing of 'I'm great because I love change'. It's a bit more nuanced I think.

Adding in all these rules to try to bring back what a sport once was never helps. Look at the state of football with stupid marks and whatnot. Let the game evolve. Some of the best games I've ever seen were in the last decade, some within the last 5yrs. The sports past is inevitably viewed through rose tinted glasses where a quick look at classic games of the 70s and 80s just shows that in reality the games were crap compared to the quality today.

Rosita · 06-06-2021 11:27pm

threeball wrote: »

Adding in all these rules to try to bring back what a sport once was never helps. Look at the state of football with stupid marks and whatnot. Let the game evolve. Some of the best games I've ever seen were in the last decade, some within the last 5yrs. The sports past is inevitably viewed through rose tinted glasses where a quick look at classic games of the 70s and 80s just shows that in reality the games were crap compared to the quality today.

Why do you keep mentioning 70s and 80s? Nobody cares about that.

Rules have always been brought into sports to deal with prevailing conditions. That's all that being suggested. Sport does not evolve in a vacuum. Rules have a fundamental impact. Helps move a game forward. You are the only one mentioning the past. Even the past five years is irrelevant. It's the next 5/10 that count now.

Hurling- what’s gone wrong and where do we go from here.

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