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Article: "Having a kid is probably my biggest life regret: ‘Wife concurs’"

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    #92
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    though tbf, it's like a theoretical thread (again in the tattoo forum) 'tell us about a tattoo you really regret' being posted in by people declaiming 'i've loads of tattoos and i've never regretted a single one'.
    to which the other posters might respond 'well, yes, that's great for you but that's ignoring what the thread is about'.


    A regret thread in the tattoo forum would make sense because its full of people with tattoos. But this is the child free forum so why would a parent who regrets their child post here in the first place? :confused: I'd see more of a use of it in the personal or parenting forums rather than here. Why post a cautionary tale to people who never intend to have kids in the first place, surely it makes more sense to post in a thread where people might stop and think about why they are trying to have a baby.

    Look I get that people shouldn't spam the forum with their amazing experiences of parenthood, that's not what this forum is for. But I don't think it should be a surprise either to expect some backlash when crass generalisations are put out there. You can talk about your lifestyle without running down people who choose a different one. Seems like everyone here has already made up their minds anyway so an article about having kids is moot imo.

    I think the comment about nest of breeders just got my ire...I work with parents and I see them as my colleagues rather than people with kids.


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    #93
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,482 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    oh, i'd agree with you that some of the language has been unhelpful/idiotic.


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    #94
    Faith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,655 Mod ✭✭✭✭Faith


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I think the comment about nest of breeders just got my ire...I work with parents and I see them as my colleagues rather than people with kids.

    I totally agree that language like "breeders" is derogatory and toxic. I've reported it for mod attention and I'm a bit surprised that nothing has been done about it. When I suggested this forum, it was discussed in that thread at length that toxic and hateful language about parents wouldn't be tolerated.
    eviltwin wrote: »
    A regret thread in the tattoo forum would make sense because its full of people with tattoos. But this is the child free forum so why would a parent who regrets their child post here in the first place? :confused: I'd see more of a use of it in the personal or parenting forums rather than here. Why post a cautionary tale to people who never intend to have kids in the first place, surely it makes more sense to post in a thread where people might stop and think about why they are trying to have a baby.

    I do understand your point, and I hesitated before posting the article here. The reason I did so was mostly because I suspect this forum would attract a (possibly silent) audience of people who are ambivalent or unsure about having kids and this article provides some food for thought if you're in that group. I think an article about parental regret is a touchy subject for many, and I didn't think it was appropriate to post it in the Parenting forum because it would look like trolling. At least by posting it here it wouldn't be as touchy and potentially hurtful as it might be posting it in other forums, but it's also providing an opportunity for a discussion around the topic without riling up the core group of posters that the forum is aimed at.


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    #95
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It's a tad naive/idealistic to expect an anonymous internet forum to ' I suspect this forum would attract a (possibly silent) audience of people who are ambivalent or unsure about having kids' IMO.


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    #96
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Faith wrote: »
    I totally agree that language like "breeders" is derogatory and toxic. I've reported it for mod attention and I'm a bit surprised that nothing has been done about it. When I suggested this forum, it was discussed in that thread at length that toxic and hateful language about parents wouldn't be tolerated.



    I do understand your point, and I hesitated before posting the article here. The reason I did so was mostly because I suspect this forum would attract a (possibly silent) audience of people who are ambivalent or unsure about having kids and this article provides some food for thought if you're in that group. I think an article about parental regret is a touchy subject for many, and I didn't think it was appropriate to post it in the Parenting forum because it would look like trolling. At least by posting it here it wouldn't be as touchy and potentially hurtful as it might be posting it in other forums, but it's also providing an opportunity for a discussion around the topic without riling up the core group of posters that the forum is aimed at.

    To be honest Faith I think no matter where you put it it's going to ruffle feathers. Having a kid is a completely unique experience, it can't be compared to anything else. Its not like having a dog or a tattoo or babysitting for a mate, you can't replicate the experience ahead of time and if it turns out to be a mistake you can't undo it.

    People can only post about their own experience, is it helpful though? I mean you can't judge how you will feel about having a child based on someone else's experience of it. So I'm just not sure how helpful those kinds of articles are unless its to show people feeling the same that they aren't freaks for feeling how they do and not alone.


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    #97
    Faith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,655 Mod ✭✭✭✭Faith


    eviltwin wrote: »
    People can only post about their own experience, is it helpful though? I mean you can't judge how you will feel about having a child based on someone else's experience of it. So I'm just not sure how helpful those kinds of articles are unless its to show people feeling the same that they aren't freaks for feeling how they do and not alone.

    I personally do think it’s helpful, yeah, when it’s phrased as “my experience is…”. I really enjoy hearing about personal experiences from all sides, even if it’s not a topic I’m going to change my mind on.

    (What I don’t like, and I’d wager most of us are the same, is being told my experience is wrong by someone else, or being lectured to by someone convinced they are right and I am wrong regarding a personal choice.)


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    #98
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Does anyone have a problem with parents coming in and posting about their positive experience? I certainly don't. There has been unhelpful labels thrown about by both sides. Is that not what has got so many heckles raised?


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    #99
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,024 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Does anyone have a problem with parents coming in and posting about their positive experience? I certainly don't. There has been unhelpful labels thrown about by both sides. Is that not what has got so many heckles raised?

    I would. Plenty of parenting threads and resources out there. I'd rather be able to discuss childfree issues without parents chiming in.


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    #100
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Does anyone have a problem with parents coming in and posting about their positive experience? I certainly don't. There has been unhelpful labels thrown about by both sides. Is that not what has got so many heckles raised?

    But what is the point of a Childfree by Choice forum if every thread is going to end up having parents posting going 'I have kids and I think they are great, no regrets'. They have a parenting forum for that. Let the people who don't want to have kids get on with discussing aspects of life that they experience without having kids.

    People who don't have kids are more than aware that there are loads of parents who are happy with their decision to have kids. Having those parents posting that in various threads in the forum doesn't add to the discussion.


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    #101
    R.D. aka MR.D
    Registered Users Posts: 2,643 ✭✭✭R.D. aka MR.D


    eviltwin wrote: »
    To be honest Faith I think no matter where you put it it's going to ruffle feathers. Having a kid is a completely unique experience, it can't be compared to anything else. Its not like having a dog or a tattoo or babysitting for a mate, you can't replicate the experience ahead of time and if it turns out to be a mistake you can't undo it.

    People can only post about their own experience, is it helpful though? I mean you can't judge how you will feel about having a child based on someone else's experience of it. So I'm just not sure how helpful those kinds of articles are unless its to show people feeling the same that they aren't freaks for feeling how they do and not alone.

    I think regret experiences are important because there is a narrative pushed that people don't regret kids and the minute you have them you will fall in love with them. It is a counterbalance to that.

    In my early/mid 20s, I wasn't as confident in asserting my choice and feeling comfortable that there isn't in fact anything wrong with not wanting kids, these kind of articles helped with expressing myself when so many responses are 'oh but kids are the best, you'd be a great parent, you'll feel differently once you have them'.


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    #102
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    Then make it closed forum. The thread is about parenting experiences which childfree people don't have. So what makes someone without kids more qualified to talk about chalengess of parenting than those who have kids.

    Maybe the thread 8s in the wrong forum and should be moved to parenting forum.

    Edit: the reply was to Rainbowtrout

    Edit2: btw when you describe people just by their ability or desire to bread like they are some prised cow you will get responses. You can't hurl insults at people and then complain how unfair it is that the thread attracts all sorts.


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    #103
    R.D. aka MR.D
    Registered Users Posts: 2,643 ✭✭✭R.D. aka MR.D


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Does anyone have a problem with parents coming in and posting about their positive experience? I certainly don't. There has been unhelpful labels thrown about by both sides. Is that not what has got so many heckles raised?

    I mean it is an open forum so whatever but it is annoying to see so many patronising comments and the old 'you have no idea' stuff thrown about. What is the response to that? I've no idea what it is like to be a nurse, but when my friend talks about it, i can imagine, sure I truly have no bloody clue but I know I wouldn't be able for it. Parents just seem to dismiss everyone who aren't parents, they won't even entertain the idea that the reason some people choose to be childfree is because they have made the effort to try to understand what it is like to be a parent.

    Sure, share postive experiences but I don't think it is right to start telling people they've no idea. That works both ways also...my friends in their 30s with kids have no idea how great it is to be in your 30s without them. I certainly wouldn't be heading into a parenting forum to say that!


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    #104
    Flinty997
    Registered Users Posts: 11,627 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    though tbf, it's like a theoretical thread (again in the tattoo forum) 'tell us about a tattoo you really regret' being posted in by people declaiming 'i've loads of tattoos and i've never regretted a single one'.
    to which the other posters might respond 'well, yes, that's great for you but that's ignoring what the thread is about'.

    Poor analogy. It's more like forum for people without tattoos. Then posting a thread about tattoos people regret in it. Which then attracts people with tattoos to reply suggesting ways to work around it.

    But then people saying they don't want to hear about workarounds or solutions only bad stories, so they can get affirmation that never having a tattoo was the right choice for them.

    In my opinion you shouldn't be focused on negativity like this. Leverage the positivity from the advantages being child free gives.


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    #105
    Flinty997
    Registered Users Posts: 11,627 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    R.D. aka MR.D wrote: »
    ...my friends in their 30s with kids have no idea how great it is to be in your 30s without them...

    ...If you have kids at 35 you would have experience of both....

    .. You child also be separated and not living with your kids or even have lost kids...


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    #106
    fits
    Registered Users Posts: 13,267 ✭✭✭✭fits


    Haven’t read whole thread.

    I honestly believe your brain changes so much after having children it’s almost like becoming a different person. So it’s impossible to predict in advance if you’ll regret having children. But most people don’t in the slightest.


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    #107
    Flinty997
    Registered Users Posts: 11,627 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    fits wrote: »
    Haven’t read whole thread.

    I honestly believe your brain changes so much after having children it’s almost like becoming a different person. So it’s impossible to predict in advance if you’ll regret having children. But most people don’t in the slightest.

    In fairness some people do not change when they have kids. Many people have experience with siblings or friends children and just know it's not something they want.

    There's so many movies and books about this kinda stuff I amazed people are not aware of all varieties of people.


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    #108
    notsoyoungwan
    Registered Users Posts: 614 ✭✭✭notsoyoungwan


    Flinty997 wrote: »
    ...If you have kids at 35 you would have experience of both....

    .. You child also be separated and not living with your kids or even have lost kids...

    Well, you’ll have experience of what it’s like not to have kids up til age 35. But you’ll have no experience of what it’s like to be planning not to have kids ever and to be living a committedly child-free life. There’s quite a difference between the two.


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    #109
    R.D. aka MR.D
    Registered Users Posts: 2,643 ✭✭✭R.D. aka MR.D


    Flinty997 wrote: »
    ...If you have kids at 35 you would have experience of both....

    .. You child also be separated and not living with your kids or even have lost kids...

    The people I know who are not active in their children's lives or have lost children are not the same as those who have never had children. That is not what I meant.

    I would also argue that my friends who had kids in their mid to late 30s were preparing for that for a number of years, they were buying houses and getting ready to ensure their jobs were at a stage that they could comfortably have children. Knowing you will never have kids (in our case certainly) allows us to take career risks, spend money on 'frivolous things' etc. Sure, maybe an oops baby but honestly, I haven't come across anyone who had an oops baby for the first time at this age.


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    #110
    amacca
    Registered Users Posts: 6,780 ✭✭✭amacca


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Also judging the experience when the kids are young is like judging a marathon after the first 5k.

    I don't know a he'll of a lot about child rearing but I do know about marathons. If you're struggling during the first 5k it's unlikely to get better in the remaining 37 in my experience.

    But I imagine marathons aren't the best analogy.


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    #111
    fits
    Registered Users Posts: 13,267 ✭✭✭✭fits


    Flinty997 wrote: »
    In fairness some people do not change when they have kids. Many people have experience with siblings or friends children and just know it's not something they want.

    There's so many movies and books about this kinda stuff I amazed people are not aware of all varieties of people.


    It’s science ( for 50% at least). https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/pregnancy-causes-lasting-changes-in-a-womans-brain/


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    #112
    notsoyoungwan
    Registered Users Posts: 614 ✭✭✭notsoyoungwan


    Igotadose wrote: »
    I would. Plenty of parenting threads and resources out there. I'd rather be able to discuss childfree issues without parents chiming in.

    I second that, tbh. One of the reasons this forum was sought was to get away from the talk about parenting being the default option and the fact that parents chime in everywhere being childfree is discussed. Now it’s infiltrating here too, when really there’s no need for it.

    Would people do it in real life? If you stumbled upon a group of people who were all childfree, all happily discussing various aspects of that, and one of them raised an article they had read about parents regretting having kids,,raising it to say to the others “no matter how loud some of them clamour, there ARE some who regret having kids, would people bulldoze in to the conversation pontificating about how transformative the experience is, how life-changing, affirming, utterly wonderful it is etc? And then get annoyed when people point out the conversation wasn’t directed at them? And insist on their right to join the chat?


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    #113
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    notsoyoungwan wrote: »
    And then get annoyed when people point out the conversation wasn’t directed at them? And insist on their right to join the chat?

    It doesn't annoy me I just find your reasoning on open forum illogical. That's why I'm happy to ignore your point.


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    #114
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    R.D. aka MR.D wrote: »
    I think regret experiences are important because there is a narrative pushed that people don't regret kids and the minute you have them you will fall in love with them. It is a counterbalance to that.

    In my early/mid 20s, I wasn't as confident in asserting my choice and feeling comfortable that there isn't in fact anything wrong with not wanting kids, these kind of articles helped with expressing myself when so many responses are 'oh but kids are the best, you'd be a great parent, you'll feel differently once you have them'.

    An if this was a page for people who are unsure about whether to have kids I'd agree with you but its not. Its preaching to the converted.

    The forum sets its stall out quite clearly as childfree by choice, not childfree because of circumstances or childfree because I haven't made up my mind yet.

    It was a point I raised at the initial request stage that lots of people would have an interest in this forum for various reasons and this article would have slotted in well there but that's not the route the powers that be took. How and ever that's neither here nor there.


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    #115
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    notsoyoungwan wrote: »
    I second that, tbh. One of the reasons this forum was sought was to get away from the talk about parenting being the default option and the fact that parents chime in everywhere being childfree is discussed. Now it’s infiltrating here too, when really there’s no need for it.

    Would people do it in real life? If you stumbled upon a group of people who were all childfree, all happily discussing various aspects of that, and one of them raised an article they had read about parents regretting having kids,,raising it to say to the others “no matter how loud some of them clamour, there ARE some who regret having kids, would people bulldoze in to the conversation pontificating about how transformative the experience is, how life-changing, affirming, utterly wonderful it is etc? And then get annoyed when people point out the conversation wasn’t directed at them? And insist on their right to join the chat?

    There is a bit of a difference between a private conversation and an open, online forum.

    As far as I know this is not a forum solely reserved for the childfree, anyone can post provided they respect the spirit of the group.


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    #116
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    meeeeh wrote: »
    Then make it closed forum. The thread is about parenting experiences which childfree people don't have. So what makes someone without kids more qualified to talk about chalengess of parenting than those who have kids.

    Maybe the thread 8s in the wrong forum and should be moved to parenting forum.

    Edit: the reply was to Rainbowtrout

    Edit2: btw when you describe people just by their ability or desire to bread like they are some prised cow you will get responses. You can't hurl insults at people and then complain how unfair it is that the thread attracts all sorts.



    I hope that comment about breeding and prized cows is not aimed at me because I didn't and don't use those words.


    The article was about a parent with regrets. Childfree people are constantly told they will regret it if they don't have children and they don't know what they are missing, so from a childfree point of view the article is interesting, because very few parents actually come out and say they regret having children, and many parents believe that having children is the only way forward and that this kind of regret doesn't exist, in the same vein that childfree people don't know what they are missing.


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    #117
    notsoyoungwan
    Registered Users Posts: 614 ✭✭✭notsoyoungwan


    meeeeh wrote: »
    It doesn't annoy me I just find your reasoning on open forum illogical. That's why I'm happy to ignore your point.

    You’re happy to ignore my point but couldn’t resist posting to ehh tell me you’re ignoring my point. But you’re definitely not annoyed. Ok then!


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    #118
    notsoyoungwan
    Registered Users Posts: 614 ✭✭✭notsoyoungwan


    eviltwin wrote: »
    There is a bit of a difference between a private conversation and an open, online forum.

    As far as I know this is not a forum solely reserved for the childfree, anyone can post provided they respect the spirit of the group.

    And does coming in insisting that the posters are wrong, that they’re too immature and self-obsessed to have children, not able for the self-sacrifice (they perceive) necessary, that they’re going to regret not having children, that having kids will lead to a better life, count as respecting the spirit of the group, or is it more trampling all over it?


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    #119
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    notsoyoungwan wrote: »
    And does coming in insisting that the posters are wrong, that they’re too immature and self-obsessed to have children, not able for the self-sacrifice (they perceive) necessary, that they’re going to regret not having children, that having kids will lead to a better life, count as respecting the spirit of the group, or is it more trampling all over it?

    I agree with that, I've seen some really embarrassing comments from parents in here and its not ok. But it works both ways. You can't have a public forum that is only allowed to be used by a certain cohort of posters, that's not how Boards works and if someone makes a dig at parents for no other reason than they are parents, they what do you expect?


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    #120
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    I hope that comment about breeding and prized cows is not aimed at me because I didn't and don't use those words.

    No it was not meant at you at all. My point was that when you (as a general you) call people 'breeders' on a thread that's visible to all and the comment stays it will attract more posters in. I prefer not to be reduced to biological process.

    However I honestly believe the topic is such that it will always attract everyone and is in the wrong forum. I don't think any other thread on the forum has similar issues. (I haven't read them but they don't seem to be as 'lively') .


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    #121
    notsoyoungwan
    Registered Users Posts: 614 ✭✭✭notsoyoungwan


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I agree with that, I've seen some really embarrassing comments from parents in here and its not ok. But it works both ways. You can't have a public forum that is only allowed to be used by a certain cohort of posters, that's not how Boards works and if someone makes a dig at parents for no other reason than they are parents, they what do you expect?

    Well, TLL works along those lines, to a degree. It’s not strictly limited to women, it’s not a private forum, but if a man arrived in and started being confrontational and argumentative, it wouldn’t be long before he’d be pulled up on it.


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