Sisters of Charity purportedly gift land to the State

Bannasidhe · 26-05-2021 12:49pm

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Yes there is. many accounts have been forensically examined.

Two independent reports found no evidence of baby selling.

The only cases of incarceration were cases when girls were incarcerated by the courts. Sinead O'Connor is a famous example.

Because they believe in charity and don't want money.

Yareli Helpful Clock wrote: »

Yes, generations of Irish women, across the world, dedicated themselves to providing charity, healthcare and education. I have to say, it is quite sad to see modern feminists and others universally attack fellow women who did and achieved so much, on the basis of the misdeeds of a few. Venerable Mary Aikenhead is one of the great Irish people of the 19th century.

Even when free use of prime land worth hundreds of millions is offered for the construction of a vitally needed hospital, with the sisters going as far out (too far in my opinion) as they possibly can to facilitate the state running the hospital, they are demonised still. It is understandable to ask of the sisters "why bother?" but of course they will respond as you have here, they are not concerned with worldly plaudits.

MOD

This thread is about the involvement of a religious order in the running of the not yet completed, State funded, National Maternity Hospital.

If you wish to discuss historical child abuse/Mother and Baby Homes/Magdalene Laundries/Industrial Schools there are already suitable threads available.

26-05-2021 12:59pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Then you agree the State should use tax payers money to fund healthcare providers who then evoke their religious ethos to deny procedures to tax payers.
You would, I assume, have no issue with a Jehovah's Witness Dr refusing to do a blood transfusion.

It's not a Republic of equal citizen's you want to live in, it's a Theocracy. That is not what Ireland is according to our Constitution. No matter how you wish to frame it, the State allowing a religious ethos to determine healthcare provision in the past was manifestly unjust, and to continue with actions that continue that practice is equally manifestly unjust.

Yes, all states that fund healthcare for the public in privately run hospitals or clinics that do not offer "healthcare" that is contrary to what their conscience and ethos will allow are theocracies. :rolleyes:

But, for the sake of moving things along, lets accept your argument that no publicly funded healthcare should take place in any privately owned hospital, clinic or healthcare facility that does not satisfy your requirements.

Let us deal with the reality, today, in Ireland, many publicly funded patients, right across the country, receive treatment in these facilities. You propose to stop this. How will these people, who cannot afford to go privately, get their treatment?

Bannasidhe · 26-05-2021 1:07pm

Yareli Helpful Clock wrote: »

Yes, all states that fund healthcare for the public in privately run hospitals or clinics that do not offer "healthcare" that is contrary to what their conscience and ethos will allow are theocracies. :rolleyes:

But, for the sake of moving things along, lets accept your argument that no publicly funded healthcare should take place in any privately owned hospital, clinic or healthcare facility that does not satisfy your requirements.

Let us deal with the reality, today, in Ireland, many publicly funded patients, right across the country, receive treatment in these facilities. You propose to stop this. How will these people, who cannot afford to go privately, get their treatment?

Perhaps you missed that this thread is about the not yet completed National Maternity Hospital?
Not a private hospital.

The State funded National Maternity Hospital paid for by tax payers but not owned by the State because they are effectively gifting it to a "charity" controlled by a religious order who had to seek permission from a foreign State to transfer ownership from the Order to the "Charity" is the topic here.

Given that I have no hesitation in saying the (not yet completed) National Maternity Hospital should be completely under the control of the State from the second it is finished.

I made no mention of private vs public hospitals and it is disingenuous of you to claim I did. I have rigorously stuck to the topic at hand. The National Maternity Hospital.

Yellow_Fern · 26-05-2021 1:19pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

But this is only possible because the private/religious sector is relatively small. If 80% of 90% of your hospitals are state run and provide any service that the state wants them to provide and funds them for, it's really not a problem that there are some services that 10% or 20% of your hospitals don't offer. Very few hospitals provide every imaginable service anyway; patients moving between hospitals or going to specialist hospitals for particular services is pretty routine. And if you can do this for other reasons, then it doesn't become impossible if the reason is one of conscience or ethos in a particular hospital. It's really not a big deal.

But it's a problem in Ireland, because Catholic-church affiliated hospitals are such a huge part of the system.

Its the same as with the schools. Preferential admission policies in Jewish schools or Presbyterian schools don't cause a problem and can be readily accommodated. But preferential admission policies in Catholic schools do, because that's 90% of schools.

So I think the Catholic church faces a choice. It can contract its presence in the health service, which will give it a lot more freedom to focus on providing the services it wishes to provide with the ethos it wishes to apply to patients who want that, or it can seek to maintain its dominant position by conforming more to the expectations of the whole community, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, and the requirements of the State.

How many Catholic hospitals are there and how are actually actively prolife? It doesnt seems to be a massive amount

26-05-2021 1:20pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Perhaps you missed that this thread is about the not yet completed National Maternity Hospital?
Not a private hospital.

The State funded National Maternity Hospital paid for by tax payers but not owned by the State because they are effectively gifting it to a "charity" controlled by a religious order who had to seek permission from a foreign State to transfer ownership from the Order to the "Charity" is the topic here.

Given that I have no hesitation in saying the (not yet completed) National Maternity Hospital should be completely under the control of the State from the second it is finished.

I made no mention of private vs public hospitals and it is disingenuous of you to claim I did. I have rigorously stuck to the topic at hand. The National Maternity Hospital.

A letter was published here, presumably for discussion. I offered my opinion on it, you then responded? But that never happened?

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Sounds ideal.
The church can run it's private hospitals without any funds from the State in any shape or form and the State can fund public hospitals where the laws of the land and not the ethos of one religion determine healthcare provision.

If the church as so capable off they trot.

26-05-2021 1:23pm

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

How many Catholic hospitals are there and how are actually actively prolife? It doesnt seems to be a massive amount

It is not that many, certainly not at the same ratio as schools.

Even hospitals that one might assume are under religious control, or used to be, such as Our Lady of Lourdes in Co. Louth are not prolife.

Bannasidhe · 26-05-2021 2:00pm

Yareli Helpful Clock wrote: »

A letter was published here, presumably for discussion. I offered my opinion on it, you then responded? But that never happened?

I responded to your opinion with reference to the topic at hand to your 'oh what would we do without the religious in our hospitals' spiel by stating the nuns can jog on if they seek to control a State Funded hospital.

At no point did I say anything about public patients being 'denied' use of private hospitals as you claim. A claim which is absurd as not all private hospitals are run by religious orders.

I see no reason why a State funded University Hospital - not a private hospital - such as The Mercy in Cork is owned by a similar trust to that proposed for the National Maternity Hospital.
The trust in question being affiliated with the Sister's of Mercy.

It is beyond ridiculous that a teaching hospital could potentially be bound by the ethos of one religion.

Governance will be conducted in the spirit of Catherine McAuley, Foundress of the Sisters of Mercy, and in accordance with the principles of Catholic Healthcare. In faithfulness to their tradition the Sisters of Mercy believe it is essential that the distinctive characteristics of that tradition should be as clear as possible to enable and empower lay persons in positions of leadership, responsibility and guidance, to continue the Mission Vision of Catherine McAuley in the delivery of quality healthcare to people of all faiths and none.

http://www.mercycaresouth.ie/

It is utterly farcical if the National Maternity Hospital is potentially bound by the ethos of one religion.

26-05-2021 2:36pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I responded to your opinion with reference to the topic at hand to your 'oh what would we do without the religious in our hospitals' spiel by stating the nuns can jog on if they seek to control a State Funded hospital.

Well, that's not really what you said. Let's remind ourselves:

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Sounds ideal.
The church can run it's private hospitals without any funds from the State in any shape or form and the State can fund public hospitals where the laws of the land and not the ethos of one religion determine healthcare provision.

If the church as so capable off they trot.

That is very clear.

Well, what would we do?

Pender has essentially proposed that no public funding should go to hospitals and clinics, both public and private, that have an ethos he disagrees with.

You said that this is "ideal". Even if we take just one aspect of what you describe as "ideal": "The church can run it's private hospitals without any funds from the State in any shape or form."

This would have a major impact on patient treatment in Ireland - public patients that is. Private would be grand of course, it would only be the poorer who would lose out under this "ideal" solution.

Doesn't that bother you?

As for "jogging on", this is more complicated than that. The state, and the law, recognise that the state does not own these hospitals or the sites on which they are constructed.

At no point did I say anything about public patients being 'denied' use of private hospitals as you claim. A claim which is absurd as not all private hospitals are run by religious orders.

Refusing to publicly fund treatment in certain private hospitals "in any shape or form" is essentially a ban on sending public patients there. This would be a massive change to what currently happens, should publicly funded patients no longer be sent to the private hospitals, or clinics, or whatever, which have an ethos you disagree with.

I see no reason why a State funded University Hospital - not a private hospital - such as The Mercy in Cork is owned by a similar trust to that proposed for the National Maternity Hospital.
The trust in question being affiliated with the Sister's of Mercy.

It is beyond ridiculous that a teaching hospital could potentially be bound by the ethos of one religion.

Ok, fair enough. So what to do about it? Stop funding it? Again, what about patients treated at these publicly funded privately owned hospitals? Should the state seek to buy these hospitals and the land they are on? Or does the constitution you appealed to get thrown out the window here with some form of Henry VIII solution?

It is utterly farcical if the National Maternity Hospital is potentially bound by the ethos of one religion.

That is not the sisters problem. They have made an offer, an extremely generous offer of free use of prime land worth hundreds of millions. If the state don't want it, they can buy and build elsewhere. However, those who advocate this, as well as the wider state boycott of certain private medical clinics and hospitals (and who knows what of existing publicly funded privately owned hospitals) should set out how they will achieve this, and what it will mean for patients.

It is pretty clear at this stage, for all your accusations of "reluctance" on my part in tackling the issues raised, that it is rather you who are reluctant or unable to address the practical problems your slogans, if enacted (they won't be), would result in. Not that I blame you of course, because it is a difficult issue, but I did expect you to have a bit more of a go than to defend an idea as being "ideal", then mere repetition of a slogan followed by a backtrack, saying you were never really talking about that, and accuse me of being disingenuous. Had you just said "The NMH should be fully state-owned and operated" and not gone any further, my position would be one of "fair enough, but don't expect free land beyond what you have been offered, the sisters have made a generous offer, if you don't agree, look elsewhere". But Pender, and in turn, you, went miles away beyond this.

Bannasidhe · 26-05-2021 3:19pm

Yareli Helpful Clock wrote: »

But, for the sake of moving things along, lets accept your argument that no publicly funded healthcare should take place in any privately owned hospital, clinic or healthcare facility that does not satisfy your requirements.

Yareli Helpful Clock wrote: »

Well, that's not really what you said. Let's remind ourselves:

Refusing to publicly fund treatment in certain private hospitals "in any shape or form" is essentially a ban on sending public patients there. This would be a massive change to what currently happens, should publicly funded patients no longer be sent to the private hospitals, or clinics, or whatever, which have an ethos you disagree with.

No.

I am not playing your game of "this is essentially what you said" in which you argue against your interpretation of what I said rather than what I actually said .

You have utterly failed to justify why the taxpayers of all religions and none should pay for a public National Maternity Hospital which will potentially be bound by the ethos of one religion as ownership is gifted to them.

All you have is whatabout whatabout whatabout.

26-05-2021 4:09pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

No.

I am not playing your game of "this is essentially what you said" in which you argue against your interpretation of what I said rather than what I actually said .

You have utterly failed to justify why the taxpayers of all religions and none should pay for a public National Maternity Hospital which will potentially be bound by the ethos of one religion as ownership is gifted to them.

All you have is whatabout whatabout whatabout.

You said what you said. If you meant something different than what you actually wrote, well, I have no control over that. It is perfectly reasonable to ask about the consequences of a suggested action, such as Pender's proposed law. Indeed, it would be most irresponsible to support such a law, indeed any law without thinking about the consequences. Or do you think lawmaking and huge capital expenditure should be reduced to a mere slogan, with no consideration of the consequences? Of course you don't, so let us apply some rigor here and not dismiss serious and legitimate concerns at proposed legislation as "whataboutery".

Have I said that the NMH should be constructed on the site in question? Indeed, I said that I, personally, felt that the sisters have gone too far in their offer with the land. I think this because in all likelihood should the hospital be built on the land in question under this generous deal, objectionable "procedures" will occur there. What I have said, multiple times now, is that there is no obligation on the state to accept the sister's generous offer, or indeed any obligation on the sisters to make the offer in the first instance. Those who support and advocate the state rejecting the offer should outline and justify their proposed alternative, if they have one. Thus far it seems the alternative is to moan about the offer for the free use of land worth hundreds of millions, and not much else.

Just for clarity (although you have made it clear now you do not want to discuss this aspect) I do not believe that either public funding should be pulled from privately owned hospitals, or that public patients should no longer be sent to certain private hospitals, clinics or whatever because if this were done so, in the absence of alternative arrangements, patients and healthcare would suffer greatly. (For public patients certainly Penders law would be a nightmare, those who can afford private healthcare like myself would probably be ok, but that is no way to run a country).

smacl · 27-05-2021 8:16am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I am not playing your game of "this is essentially what you said" in which you argue against your interpretation of what I said rather than what I actually said.

Yareli Helpful Clock wrote: »

You said what you said. If you meant something different than what you actually wrote, well, I have no control over that.

Mod: @Ex loco refugii, for avoidance of doubt, when referring to something someone has purportedly said, please quote the extract that you are referring to.

smacl · 27-05-2021 11:04am

Interesting article from the Irish Times from 2018 in relation to church involvement in the private healthcare sector. As shown below, it asks essentially the same pertinent questions raised in this thread;

Why are these religious congregations running hospitals and healthcare facilities that are only available to the 43 per cent in Ireland who can afford their services?

How is any of this compatible with the “marginalised” beloved of Pope Francis? Or a church “which is poor and for the poor” such as he has said he longs for?

Should Catholic religious congregations be involved at all in running our most expensive hospitals any more than in running our most expensive schools? And an explanation that “the rich have souls too” – as one senior cleric once put it to me – does not really wash.

The RCC clearly seem to have an agenda here which would appear to have little to do with charity.

Peregrinus · 27-05-2021 3:43pm

Seriously? You know better than this, smacl. Healing the sick is seen as not only virtuous but mandatory in the Christian ethical tradition - it's right there in the Sermon on the Mount. This isn't confined to the sick poor.

The article doesn't make a lot of sense. It asks "What are the Sisters of Mercy, the Sisters of Charity, and the Bon Secours Sisters doing in the business of private medicine?" Well, duh. If medical services are provided by voluntary bodies (religious or otherwise) that's by definition private medicine. The public hospitals are those run by the state.

Why are their hospitals available only to those who can pay? Because that's the available funding model. As the article acknowledges, they used to be in the business of providing free healthcare, funded by charitable donations, but once the state got into the business of providing free healthcare, with its greater resources it can provide better healthcare that private charitably-funded institutions can. They would no doubt happily provide free healthcare if the state would commission and pay them to do it (as happens in some other countries) but it won't. But, still, their vocation is to provide healthcare, so they find a viable space in the health system and seek to fill it.

smacl · 27-05-2021 5:01pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

Seriously? You know better than this, smacl. Healing the sick is seen as not only virtuous but mandatory in the Christian ethical tradition - it's right there in the Sermon on the Mount. This isn't confined to the sick poor.

The article doesn't make a lot of sense. It asks "What are the Sisters of Mercy, the Sisters of Charity, and the Bon Secours Sisters doing in the business of private medicine?" Well, duh. If medical services are provided by voluntary bodies (religious or otherwise) that's by definition private medicine. The public hospitals are those run by the state.

Why are their hospitals available only to those who can pay? Because that's the available funding model. As the article acknowledges, they used to be in the business of providing free healthcare, funded by charitable donations, but once the state got into the business of providing free healthcare, with its greater resources it can provide better healthcare that private charitably-funded institutions can.

Not buying that argument for a moment Peregrinus. I, and I guess very many others, would be of the opinion that the likes of the Blackrock clinic are first and foremost in the business of making money for their shareholders. I note, for example, its profits jumped €12.3 million in 2018.

They would no doubt happily provide free healthcare if the state would commission and pay them to do it (as happens in some other countries) but it won't. But, still, their vocation is to provide healthcare, so they find a viable space in the health system and seek to fill it.

That's not the religious orders providing free healthcare though is it? It is the religious orders acting as a paid service provider to the state providing free health care. The charitable aspect being wholly funded by the taxpaying citizenship. In times gone by, when there were a considerable number of nuns working in the hospitals for a very modest wage, you would have had some argument in this regard. These times are long past.

Seriously

Peregrinus · 28-05-2021 1:53am

smacl wrote: »

Not buying that argument for a moment Peregrinus. I, and I guess very many others, would be of the opinion that the likes of the Blackrock clinic are first and foremost in the business of making money for their shareholders. I note, for example, its profits jumped €12.3 million in 2018.

But the Blackrock Clinic is not run by Sisters of Mercy, the Sisters of Charity, or the Bon Secours Sisters; it's not church-linked at all. It's owned and operated by a consortium of doctors. And so far as I know it's not a not-for-profit.

Far from bolstering your argument, your selection of this example tends to suggest that you can't find a relevant example to illustrate your point.

smacl wrote: »

That's not the religious orders providing free healthcare though is it?

No, it's not. But, as I've already pointed out, in the Christian ethical view providing healthcare is an intrinsic good, whether free or not.

smacl wrote: »

It is the religious orders acting as a paid service provider to the state providing free health care. The charitable aspect being wholly funded by the taxpaying citizenship. In times gone by, when there were a considerable number of nuns working in the hospitals for a very modest wage, you would have had some argument in this regard. These times are long past.

Seriously

The discussion we're having right now kind of refutes you; the Sisters of Charity may not provide much or any nursing care in St. Vincent's hospital any more, but they do bring a very substantial capital asset to the operation - viz, the property itself. And the value that contributes is illustrated by the debate going on right here; what would it cost the state to provide that asset if the Sisters of Charity didn't provide it?

If the Sisters of Charity were really bringing nothing of value to the table, then it would be easy to cut them out of the loopp; the State could build the hospital on state-owned land and operate it itself. And nobody would be moaning about the baleful influence of the Sisters of Charity on the running of the hospital because they wouldn't have any influence.

And that may well be the right thing to do. But the difficult of doing it, and the cost of doing it, is the measure of the contribution that the Sisters of Charity do in fact make.

aloyisious · 28-05-2021 9:02am

Peregrinus wrote: »

But the Blackrock Clinic is not run by Sisters of Mercy, the Sisters of Charity, or the Bon Secours Sisters; it's not church-linked at all. It's owned and operated by a consortium of doctors. And so far as I know it's not a not-for-profit.

Far from bolstering your argument, your selection of this example tends to suggest that you can't find a relevant example to illustrate your point.

No, it's not. But, as I've already pointed out, in the Christian ethical view providing healthcare is an intrinsic good, whether free or not.

The discussion we're having right now kind of refutes you; the Sisters of Charity may not provide much or any nursing care in St. Vincent's hospital any more, but they do bring a very substantial capital asset to the operation - viz, the property itself. And the value that contributes is illustrated by the debate going on right here; what would it cost the state to provide that asset if the Sisters of Charity didn't provide it?

If the Sisters of Charity were really bringing nothing of value to the table, then it would be easy to cut them out of the loopp; the State could build the hospital on state-owned land and operate it itself. And nobody would be moaning about the baleful influence of the Sisters of Charity on the running of the hospital because they wouldn't have any influence.

And that may well be the right thing to do. But the difficult of doing it, and the cost of doing it, is the measure of the contribution that the Sisters of Charity do in fact make.

It seems to me that the "baleful" influence is the insistence that the order's RCC ethical viewpoint MUST apply to the operating of the NMH by the new SVH group set up to "facilitate the running of the new NMH" on the land owned by the order because the new NMH is being built on said land. If the order wanted to be a true christian medical order, instead of an RCC property-owning order in the first instant and a christian medical order secondly, it could sell the land from within its property portfolio to the state. Edit: It seems fairly obvious that the reason the order does not sell on the land is that it wants its RCC ethics to continue to reign supreme within any building built on - or built onto existing building - on the land.

One might well have to ask if the new trust has within its rules or mindset an ethical stricture [similar to the orders ethical viewpoint] on the ethical practices of the medical staff likely to work there providing maternity healthcare for patients brought to its doors.

Peregrinus · 28-05-2021 9:28am

aloyisious wrote: »

It seems to me that the "baleful" influence is the insistence that the order's RCC ethical viewpoint MUST apply to the operating of the NMH by the new SVH group set up to "facilitate the running of the new NMH" on the land owned by the order because the new NMH is being built on said land. If the order wanted to be a true christian medical order, instead of an RCC property-owning order in the first instant and a christian medical order secondly, it could sell the land from within its property portfolio to the state.

One might well have to ask if the new trust has within its rules or mindset an ethical stricture [similar to the orders ethical viewpoint] on the ethical practices of the medical staff likely to work there providing maternity healthcare for patients brought to its doors.

Well, it's worth pointing that that the suggestion that the order will insist that "its ethical viewpoint MUST apply to the operation of the hospital" is being made by Peter Boylan, and not (so far as I know) by the order.

It's worth noting that, so far as I can make out (it's complicated, but) the new SVH group won't be the operator of the hospital. It will be the owner of property in which the hospital is operated by another entity, presumably the hospital board. So SVH won't necessarily be in a great position to dictate how the hospital must be run.

Also worth noting that, at the time Boylan was writing, SVH only had 3 nominated directors, all from the churchy end of things. This was one of the reasons he cited for his concerns. But that state of affairs will not continue and the concerns it gives rise to may be allayed when the other 7 directors are appointed, if they're not from the churchy end of things.

Having said all that, I take Boylan's concerns very seriously, and they do have to be addressed. It's just that it may be possible to address them without having to spend hundreds of millions of taxpayers' money to acquire a site that isn't owned by a body with any religious involvement. That's at least worth exploring. There may be more efficient ways to spend that money, if our criterion is to be spending in the most effective way to meet people's health needs.

It isn't beyond the wit of humanity to run a public health service that meets secular needs properly and that has some involvement from religious voluntary bodies; they manage it in other countries. It may turn out that we can't manage it here, but given the enormous cost that will result from coming to that conclusion I wouldn't rush into it without exploring other possibilities.

aloyisious · 30-05-2021 9:17am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, it's worth pointing that that the suggestion that the order will insist that "its ethical viewpoint MUST apply to the operation of the hospital" is being made by Peter Boylan, and not (so far as I know) by the order.

It's worth noting that, so far as I can make out (it's complicated, but) the new SVH group won't be the operator of the hospital. It will be the owner of property in which the hospital is operated by another entity, presumably the hospital board. So SVH won't necessarily be in a great position to dictate how the hospital must be run.

Also worth noting that, at the time Boylan was writing, SVH only had 3 nominated directors, all from the churchy end of things. This was one of the reasons he cited for his concerns. But that state of affairs will not continue and the concerns it gives rise to may be allayed when the other 7 directors are appointed, if they're not from the churchy end of things.

Having said all that, I take Boylan's concerns very seriously, and they do have to be addressed. It's just that it may be possible to address them without having to spend hundreds of millions of taxpayers' money to acquire a site that isn't owned by a body with any religious involvement. That's at least worth exploring. There may be more efficient ways to spend that money, if our criterion is to be spending in the most effective way to meet people's health needs.

It isn't beyond the wit of humanity to run a public health service that meets secular needs properly and that has some involvement from religious voluntary bodies; they manage it in other countries. It may turn out that we can't manage it here, but given the enormous cost that will result from coming to that conclusion I wouldn't rush into it without exploring other possibilities.

I'll have to check on who will own the property [land] the new NMH hospital is built on AND the thoughts and ethical mindset of those who [as you say] will be on the new SVH group board [as distinct from whatever board will be overseeing the new NMH] all - as you say - very complicated. It would be nice if the various existing and new entities did have completely separate boards membership and actually operate totally separately as distinct entities with completely different agendas and not in any designed-fashion to mesh together behind the scenes in a corporate manner capable under company law. Dr Boylan's assertion that the Nuns ethical RC standard will apply in the new NMH cant be ignored.

I can't imagine [however much I would like it] that the order would make a public statement to the practical and irrevocable legal effect that it is renouncing any present and/or future links with any and all persons owning the land, the buildings and the operating standards of the new NMH at the site known commonly as St Vincent's Hospital.

In the past, while walking through the main St Vincent's Hospital to it's cardiac clinic section, I chanced upon an office formerly used for OPD appointments being used as the new NMH plans office with the building blueprint outlines on public display but as I was heading for an appointment. couldn't take time to photo the blueprints. I did get the impression that the new NMH would be physically linked/attached to the present public hospital building though I could well be wrong in the impression I gained that day.

Hotblack Desiato · 03-06-2021 10:17pm

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Two independent reports found no evidence of baby selling.

Two ignored it.

The McAleese report was a total whitewash. Should've been printed on toilet paper and flushed straight to its appropriate destination.

We're now seeing that the recent mother and baby home report was a complete whitewash as well. The excuse that they had to suppress survivor testimony because they were afraid the church would sue (a) says it all about the church (b) is a ridiculously pathetic excuse.

Why defend the indefensible?

Yellow_Fern · 04-06-2021 9:58am

smacl wrote: »

Interesting article from the Irish Times from 2018 in relation to church involvement in the private healthcare sector. As shown below, it asks essentially the same pertinent questions raised in this thread;

Why are these religious congregations running hospitals and healthcare facilities that are only available to the 43 per cent in Ireland who can afford their services?

How is any of this compatible with the “marginalised” beloved of Pope Francis? Or a church “which is poor and for the poor” such as he has said he longs for?

Should Catholic religious congregations be involved at all in running our most expensive hospitals any more than in running our most expensive schools? And an explanation that “the rich have souls too” – as one senior cleric once put it to me – does not really wash.

The RCC clearly seem to have an agenda here which would appear to have little to do with charity.

Basically how dare Catholics exist in public medicine? Moments later, Catholics are such hypocrites for offering private medicine. Can't win with these lads

Yellow_Fern · 04-06-2021 10:02am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Two ignored it.

The McAleese report was a total whitewash. Should've been printed on toilet paper and flushed straight to its appropriate destination.

We're now seeing that the recent mother and baby home report was a complete whitewash as well. The excuse that they had to suppress survivor testimony because they were afraid the church would sue (a) says it all about the church (b) is a ridiculously pathetic excuse.

Why defend the indefensible?

You are entitled assert that the McAleese report was a white wash but it will be just an assertation unless you can show evidence. The allegations of baby selling come from the infamous 2012 HSE memo.

The HSE 2012 documents
49. An incomplete HSE document from 2012 has been widely quoted and assumed by many to be accurate. The Commission had great difficulty in getting copies of this document even though it was frequently being quoted in the media and in other fora. The report allegedly dealt with practices in Bessborough and Tuam. In December 2015, solicitors for the HSE told the Commission that the HSE was trying to find a copy of the Bessborough report. The Commission also sought a copy of the Tuam report which was allegedly an appendix to the report on Bessborough. In April 2016, the Commission was told that the HSE was still trying to find the copy of the report that had the Tuam appendix. In March 2017, the HSE were still looking for the Tuam report. The HSE solicitor told the Commission that the Tuam appendix probably did not exist. In June 2017 Commission heard evidence from some of the HSE staff involved in compiling the report.
51. In April 2018, the HSE delivered two folders of documents which included 41 drafts of the 2012 report. The alleged Tuam appendix never materialised.

52. It appears that, in October 2012 two documents described as a file note and a draft briefing paper were circulated among senior HSE staff. It seems that these were prepared for the purposes of the McAleese Report. These documents contained a number of allegations regarding Bessborough mother and baby home and the Tuam home.
53. Among the allegations was that there was a large archive of photographs and other documentation relating to children from the Tuam home sent for adoption to the USA. It was stated that there was already a database of up to 1,000 names but it was acknowledged that it was not yet clear whether all of these related to US adoptions. The file note stated that there was more than one letter to a parent or parents asking for money for an infant who had already been discharged or who had died.
54. The draft briefing paper claimed that most women who gave birth in Bessborough were discharged to a Magdalen institution. It claimed that there were two discharge dates sometimes separated by years. There was an allegation that the homes claimed monies from the Government for these mothers and/or children once they had left the home. It claimed that both Tuam and Bessborough charged a fee to both birth parents and to adoptive parents for the upkeep of their children.
55. The file note went on to speculate that children may have been kept in the homes for financial reasons. It also speculated that ‘trafficking’ of babies must have been facilitated by doctors, social workers and others, some of whom could still be working in the system.
56. The draft briefing paper noted in relation to Bessborough that ‘there are no death records whatsoever after 1953, concurrent with the introduction of adoption legislation in Ireland’. The implication appears to be that death records were falsified in order that children could be sent abroad illegally.
57. These documents made their way into the hands of a number of people including TDs, journalists and members of survivor groups. The details of the documents were repeated many times including during a Seanad debate of 17 May 2017. It appeared to be accepted by commentators and politicians that the allegations and suppositions made in these documents were statements of fact.
58. A journalist investigating mother and baby homes discussed these claims in several articles in a national newspaper and made the further claim that Bessborough authorities had over-reported infant deaths to the Department of Local Government and Public Health, as the number of deaths reported in the Bessborough Death Register was less than that in the returns to the department. The Commission has established that this was incorrect - see the Fifth Interim Report.
59. The caveats expressed by the author of the Bessborough report were not reported. The author noted that • it was based on a ‘cursory’ glance at a sample of Bessborough records; • the research was ‘not grounded in forensic analysis’; • the conclusions were ‘purely conjecture’.
60. The Bessborough records had come into the possession of the HSE only about a year before the 2012 report was compiled. The report was compiled by a person who was seeing these records for the first time and had very little time to do any analysis so it is not surprising that unwarranted conclusions were reached. What is more surprising is that this incomplete document came into the public domain and that the allegations were accepted as fact by so many people.
61. The Commission examined the claims and hypotheses put forward in relation to Bessborough and these are addressed in the relevant chapter and in the Bessborough section of Part 5.
62. In relation to Tuam, the Commission took evidence from the official who had compiled the database referred to in the file note. This official has moved to a different area of work and so spoke from memory only.

Page 11 of the report.

Bellbottoms · 04-06-2021 10:03am

smacl wrote: »

Interesting article from the Irish Times from 2018 in relation to church involvement in the private healthcare sector. As shown below, it asks essentially the same pertinent questions raised in this thread;

The RCC clearly seem to have an agenda here which would appear to have little to do with charity.

It's been some time since I've read it. But this was something that Noel Browne raised in his biography Against the tide.

Something about going into Bon Secours offering to by the place on behalf of the state an what ever nun was in charge having a break down at the mere thought that poor people would be allowed receive treatment in the hospital.

smacl · 04-06-2021 10:25am

Bellbottoms wrote: »

It's been some time since I've read it. But this was something that Noel Browne raised in his biography Against the tide.

Something about going into Bon Secours offering to by the place on behalf of the state an what ever nun was in charge having a break down at the mere thought that poor people would be allowed receive treatment in the hospital.

I haven't read it but do have a copy knocking around so will make the effort when I get some time.

04-06-2021 12:21pm

Bellbottoms wrote: »

It's been some time since I've read it. But this was something that Noel Browne raised in his biography Against the tide.

Something about going into Bon Secours offering to by the place on behalf of the state an what ever nun was in charge having a break down at the mere thought that poor people would be allowed receive treatment in the hospital.

You have done a bit of editorializing there. If I recall, Browne said that any proposal he made (more on that in a second) was received with a look of "mystified pain" and dismissed unsmilingly. Hardly a "breakdown"?

Browne was there to visit the new hospital for a tour on its opening, it was quite a fine hospital for its time and built by the sisters for a very good price (I think he said 6 million). Brown then said he made light of the sum spent and offered to buy it (out of the blue while on this tour) with department funds, which can hardly have been a sincere offer. He then went on to say that he found it hard to credit that his "offer" was declined for reasons of class alone. (Indeed he implies/makes other charges essentially that it was about control of healthcare, (to be fair he has a go at the protestants and the Masonic order for this too)

Of course, Browne prefaced all of this by recounting his annoyance that his request to McQuaid, that the archbishop send nuns into houses where mothers were hospitalized with TB (which to Browne's eternal credit he did amazing work to eliminate) in order for said nuns to act as "substitute mothers", was declined!

Like any autobiography it is his perspective and recollection of things, many years removed from the events and does at times veer into score settling - it cannot be accepted on its own as encompassing and explaining the entire context of the time (as is the case with any autobiography). Some of his invective aimed at former friends was very savage, nasty and unwarranted. That said, Browne's book is very good, one of the very best political autobiographies produced in the last century and if you have not read it you should. His personal life growing up was very sad - interesting aspects to it (given the caricature of him that later arose) including that he received extensive charity and support from catholic families and free attendance at top catholic schools (he has nice things to say about the Jesuits and his time being educated by them).

On the subject of providing healthcare, the catholic church is the largest non-governmental provider of it in the world. Indeed, the concept of free healthcare for the poor (and that care of the poor and sick as an obligation) has its origins in Catholicism, various monastic rules event went as far as saying that the ill should be treated as though they were Christ himself. From this we have hospitals, hospices, orphanages etc.

Some would object to Catholics offering healthcare at all, where it done for free (as it is in many parts of the world) there will be one set of objections, and where there is a charge (although it is ran on a not-for-profit basis) there is another set of objections. I, personally, and my family have received excellent care in private hospitals. The fact that the bons secours run excellent hospitals on an efficient basis should not be a stick with which to beat them. It is noteworthy that what they do charge is usually less than what would be charged for "private" treatment in a public hospital, for the same treatment. Healthcare in Ireland is a disaster, but that is not the fault of the sisters. The private hospitals would not last five minutes if they did not charge.

If we look at the history of private healthcare in Ireland the sole insurer with a state imposed monopoly was the state owned and operated VHI. One of the ideas here was that wealthier people would be able/have to go to private hospitals/pay and that the means tested poor would get free care. Hence it was essential that there were private facilities and patients because the state could not afford to provide fully free care for everyone. The church were involved at both ends of this, running public and private (not for profit) hospitals. Any charge that religious orders, whose members live austere lives haven taken vows of poverty, dedicated their time and resources to providing healthcare out of anything other than what they viewed as charity is simply ignorant. They provided charity and healthcare because they believe that God mandates that they do so, and has called them to take religious orders and do this. It is not to get rich. As religious, they believe (correctly in my mind) that people have souls and death is not the end - hence people need spiritual care and charity also. People might object on that basis, but if they are making a serious call for Catholics to cease offering healthcare they need to provide for the patients who otherwise would have no care at all.

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Basically how dare Catholics exist in public medicine? Moments later, Catholics are such hypocrites for offering private medicine. Can't win with these lads

Indeed.

Bellbottoms · 04-06-2021 1:07pm

Yareli Helpful Clock wrote: »

You have done a bit of editorializing there. If I recall, Browne said that any proposal he made (more on that in a second) was received with a look of "mystified pain" and dismissed unsmilingly. Hardly a "breakdown"?

I may well be. It has been almost two decades since I've read it.
I do remember Browne being at pains to point out that the head nun was very insistent that no poor people would be allowed into the hospital.

But I do remember the book have an element of score settling to it. A man more sinned against then sinned and all that. Who knows what was and wasn't said.

04-06-2021 1:34pm

Bellbottoms wrote: »

I may well be. It has been almost two decades since I've read it.
I do remember Browne being at pains to point out that the head nun was very insistent that no poor people would be allowed into the hospital.

But I do remember the book have an element of score settling to it. A man more sinned against then sinned and all that. Who knows what was and wasn't said.

It's a good book, I'll probably read it again over the weekend. The fact that he (well, obviously loads of people did the work that he spearheaded and helped) got rid of TB largely gives him a pass my book - for all his various faults and opinions I think were wrong - and puts him among the greats. I remember my granny talking about TB, it really was horrific.

Hotblack Desiato · 04-06-2021 6:06pm

It's entirely disingenuous to say that religious orders "provide" healthcare, it's private patients and the taxpayer who are paying the bills, the staff are civilians, the only role of the orders (or, these days, their nominees) is that nebulous term "ethos".

Having a religious ethos embedded into public services funded by the taxpayer is a massive problem. In healthcare this leads to particular problems for women seeking to access contraception, sterilisation or abortion where catholic so-called "morality" interferes. This is intolerable in what is supposed to be a secular state.

Education is another massive can of worms where the taxpayer via the state pays all of the bills but has no ownership or control.

Bannasidhe · 04-06-2021 7:12pm

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Basically how dare Catholics exist in public medicine? Moments later, Catholics are such hypocrites for offering private medicine. Can't win with these lads

Except that no one said that. Indeed given the percentage of the population who claim to be Roman Catholic in the census it's fair to say there must be one or two knocking around the public health system without any one commenting on their presence.

However, Roman Catholics imposing the ethos of their church within the public health system is an entirely different matter.
They absolutely have the right to do so within the confines of self funding health cares providers in under their control but when funded out of general taxation they do not.

Why is this so difficult to understand?

ClosedAccountFuzzy · 04-06-2021 7:15pm

I’m really getting fed up with the sense of entitlement that these organisations have. It’s public money and a public hospital. They’re a private organisation.

They behave like they’re doing some charitable service while in reality they’re just glorified outsourcers who have notions.

This is tax payers money and a resource we should able to see used on an entirely unbiased, comfortable and neutral basis.

Yellow_Fern · 04-06-2021 7:47pm

Lads, this new hospital does not have a Catholic ethos. It was never going planned to have such.

04-06-2021 7:53pm

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

I’m really getting fed up with the sense of entitlement that these organisations have. It’s public money and a public hospital. They’re a private organisation.

They behave like they’re doing some charitable service while in reality they’re just glorified outsourcers who have notions.

This is tax payers money and a resource we should able to see used on an entirely unbiased, comfortable and neutral basis.

Free use of land worth hundreds of millions sounds pretty charitable to me.

uptherebels · 04-06-2021 8:10pm

Yareli Helpful Clock wrote: »

Free use of land worth hundreds of millions sounds pretty charitable to me.

If they were really being charitable they would have gifted it to the state. :rolleyes:

04-06-2021 8:18pm

uptherebels wrote: »

If they were really being charitable they would have gifted it to the state. :rolleyes:

You can't win

Someone was giving out about a sense of entitlement?

Are we really going to go down the road of arguing that offering prime land, for free, to be used for a hospital is not generous or charitable? If they were after a few quid they could sell it for a few hundred million.

I would be interested to see what people advocate as an alternative. Should the state just buy the land at the market rate, or should they build the hospital elsewhere?

ClosedAccountFuzzy · 04-06-2021 8:21pm

They could have built the hospital on state land. The HSE itself isn’t exactly short of sites.

There’s been a stings attached element to this all along.

uptherebels · 04-06-2021 8:27pm

Yareli Helpful Clock wrote: »

You can't win Someone was giving out about a sense of entitlement?

Are we really going to go down the road of arguing that offering prime land, for free, to be used for a hospital is not generous or charitable? If they were after a few quid they could sell it for a few hundred million.

I would be interested to see what people advocate as an alternative. Should the state just buy the land at the market rate, or should they build the hospital elsewhere?

if it was actually for free i.e. getting nothing in return then it would be an act of charity. but thats not the case here is it.

After the countless atrocities inflicted by religious institutions in this country, it should have as far away from them as possible, but it is too late now.

Now the state just needs to do what it can to insulate the tax payer financed multi billion dollar asset from certain grubby claws.

04-06-2021 8:41pm

uptherebels wrote: »

if it was actually for free i.e. getting nothing in return then it would be an act of charity. but thats not the case here is it.

After the countless atrocities inflicted by religious institutions in this country, it should have as far away from them as possible, but it is too late now.

Now the state just needs to do what it can to insulate the tax payer financed multi billion dollar asset from certain grubby claws.

Tell me, what are they getting in return? Personally I believe that should the hospital be built there it will most certainly see unethical 'healthcare' preformed there. All we are seeing here is a vague little dance from the Sisters so when the inevitable happens they can sort of say they did not think it would. Personally, I think the Sisters should not gift the land in any way, shape or form unless they can be assured that objectionable 'healthcare' such as the termination of the unborn child will not happen. But they are not getting that, or even asking for that. I would be most happy if the state decided to just buy land elsewhere.

Bannasidhe · 04-06-2021 9:48pm

Yareli Helpful Clock wrote: »

Tell me, what are they getting in return? Personally I believe that should the hospital be built there it will most certainly see unethical 'healthcare' preformed there. All we are seeing here is a vague little dance from the Sisters so when the inevitable happens they can sort of say they did not think it would. Personally, I think the Sisters should not gift the land in any way, shape or form unless they can be assured that objectionable 'healthcare' such as the termination of the unborn child will not happen. But they are not getting that, or even asking for that. I would be most happy if the state decided to just buy land elsewhere.

They are getting ownership of a state of the art, publicly paid for, maternity hospital. A very valuable asset.
And it's not costing them a brass farthing.
It remains to be seen what they will be looking for further along the line.
The State already owns land the hospital could have been built on.
The fact that the powers that be thought the conditions attached to this site shows how far we need to go in separating church and state.
And if government doesn't think there will be a backlash they are even more out of touch than they appear.
Catholic Ireland died in the pile of abuse committed by the clergy and covered up by the hierarchy. But some people still haven't realised that.

Yellow_Fern · 05-06-2021 9:36am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

They are getting ownership of a state of the art, publicly paid for, maternity hospital. A very valuable asset.
And it's not costing them a brass farthing.
It remains to be seen what they will be looking for further along the line.
The State already owns land the hospital could have been built on.
The fact that the powers that be thought the conditions attached to this site were acceptable shows how far we need to go in separating church and state.
And if government doesn't think there will be a backlash they are even more out of touch than they appear.
Catholic Ireland died in the pile of abuse committed by the clergy and covered up by the hierarchy. But some people still haven't realised that.

That isn't true though. You are propagating a fake story.

Yellow_Fern · 05-06-2021 9:43am

Sisters call on minister to speed up new national maternity hospital deal

Hotblack Desiato · 05-06-2021 10:04am

Yareli Helpful Clock wrote: »

If they were after a few quid they could sell it for a few hundred million.

Utter rubbish.

The land is not, and will never be, zoned for commercial development.

Hotblack Desiato · 05-06-2021 10:05am

Yareli Helpful Clock wrote: »

unethical

:rolleyes:

Hotblack Desiato · 05-06-2021 10:07am

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Sisters call on minister to speed up new national maternity hospital deal

That story is a lie, they did NOT gift the land to the State.

In a statement today (Thursday) issued by a Dublin-based PR firm

Catholic religious orders always have the best PR firms and lawyers, don't they...

Bannasidhe · 05-06-2021 10:49am

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

That isn't true though. You are propagating a fake story.

My understanding of the situation is:

Is the State paying? Yes.
Will the State own the hospital? No.
Who will own the hospital? A charity recently set up by a religious order.
Are this religious order contributing to the building costs? No.
How did this situation arise? As part of the contract in exchange for the use of the land, the charity would own any building erected on it but not be liable for any associated costs.

Perhaps you would answer the same questions according to your understanding?

Yellow_Fern · 05-06-2021 11:20am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

My understanding of the situation is:

Is the State paying? Yes.
Will the State own the hospital? No.
Who will own the hospital? A charity recently set up by a religious order.
Are this religious order contributing to the building costs? No.
How did this situation arise? As part of the contract in exchange for the use of the land, the charity would own any building erected on it but not be liable for any associated costs.

Perhaps you would answer the same questions according to your understanding?

St Vincent’s Holdings will own it and it is a non Catholic entity and will not have any board members drawn from religious bodies. Nor will the sisters make any money from this deal or have any power over this. *MOD SNIP*

Owersnip is such a red herring. There are many complex legal and historical for different ownership structures of public bodies. For example, do you think the State owns Trinity College or UCD? They don't. Is it a problem? no it isnt.

MOD

Yellowfern, you have been sanctioned for the use of inflammatory language which is in contravention of the Forum Charter. The offending sentence has been snipped to prevent this thread being dragged off topic. Kindly read the Charter before posting in this forum again, in particular that section re:use of emotive terms which inflame discussions. Do NOT respond to this in thread. If you wish to discuss it take it to PM

Bellbottoms · 05-06-2021 11:23am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

That story is a lie, they did NOT gift the land to the State.

Catholic religious orders always have the best PR firms and lawyers, don't they...

Are they still using Terry Prone?

Yellow_Fern · 05-06-2021 12:34pm

Just for clarity and palatable for the community, the new hospital will have no catholic restrictions on the termination of 'parasitic balls of cells' that are known to grow in women and which that we as a society treat as bereavements when they die naturally. This seems to be main issue that objectors had.

Bannasidhe · 05-06-2021 12:39pm

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Just for clarity and palatable for the community, the new hospital will have no catholic restrictions on the termination of 'parasitic balls of cells' that are known to grow in women and which that we as a society treat as bereavements when they die naturally. This seems to be main issue that objectors had.

MOD
Yellow Fern - you are walking a very narrow line here. Keep up this soapboxing and rules lawyering and I will have no hesitation in escalating the sanctions imposed against you.

smacl · 05-06-2021 2:31pm

Yareli Helpful Clock wrote: »

Tell me, what are they getting in return? Personally I believe that should the hospital be built there it will most certainly see unethical 'healthcare' preformed there.

Hopefully not. Unethical healthcare in this country at this point of consists of denying women options surrounding reproductive health, that the people of this country have clearly stated they are entitled to, which a minority take issue with largely because they fall foul of an anachronistic religious belief system. The attempt by a few to limit the healthcare options of others in this manner is deeply unethical.

Yellow_Fern · 05-06-2021 2:51pm

smacl wrote: »

Hopefully not. Unethical healthcare in this country at this point of consists of denying women options surrounding reproductive health, that the people of this country have clearly stated they are entitled to, which a minority take issue with largely because they fall foul of an anachronistic religious belief system. The attempt by a few to limit the healthcare options of others in this manner is deeply unethical.

Which hospitals do you refer too? Or do you mean individuals doctors?

smacl · 05-06-2021 3:22pm

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Which hospitals do you refer too? Or do you mean individuals doctors?

Any and every publicly funded healthcare organisation or individual that would actively seek to limit any woman's options surrounding reproductive health. While I don't have any issue with individuals refusing to take part in such activities directly on the grounds of conscientious objection, I would take serious issue with others, who do not share that objection, being pressured or forced to behave similarly.

Sisters of Charity purportedly gift land to the State

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