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Sisters of Charity purportedly gift land to the State

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 26,547 ✭✭✭✭ Hotblack Desiato


    unethical

    :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,547 ✭✭✭✭ Hotblack Desiato



    That story is a lie, they did NOT gift the land to the State.

    In a statement today (Thursday) issued by a Dublin-based PR firm

    Catholic religious orders always have the best PR firms and lawyers, don't they...


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,036 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Bannasidhe


    That isn't true though. You are propagating a fake story.
    My understanding of the situation is:

    Is the State paying? Yes.
    Will the State own the hospital? No.
    Who will own the hospital? A charity recently set up by a religious order.
    Are this religious order contributing to the building costs? No.
    How did this situation arise? As part of the contract in exchange for the use of the land, the charity would own any building erected on it but not be liable for any associated costs.

    Perhaps you would answer the same questions according to your understanding?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭ Yellow_Fern


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    My understanding of the situation is:

    Is the State paying? Yes.
    Will the State own the hospital? No.
    Who will own the hospital? A charity recently set up by a religious order.
    Are this religious order contributing to the building costs? No.
    How did this situation arise? As part of the contract in exchange for the use of the land, the charity would own any building erected on it but not be liable for any associated costs.

    Perhaps you would answer the same questions according to your understanding?

    St Vincent’s Holdings will own it and it is a non Catholic entity and will not have any board members drawn from religious bodies. Nor will the sisters make any money from this deal or have any power over this. *MOD SNIP*

    Owersnip is such a red herring. There are many complex legal and historical for different ownership structures of public bodies. For example, do you think the State owns Trinity College or UCD? They don't. Is it a problem? no it isnt.

    MOD

    Yellowfern, you have been sanctioned for the use of inflammatory language which is in contravention of the Forum Charter. The offending sentence has been snipped to prevent this thread being dragged off topic. Kindly read the Charter before posting in this forum again, in particular that section re:use of emotive terms which inflame discussions. Do NOT respond to this in thread. If you wish to discuss it take it to PM


  • Registered Users Posts: 670 ✭✭✭ Bellbottoms


    That story is a lie, they did NOT gift the land to the State.




    Catholic religious orders always have the best PR firms and lawyers, don't they...

    Are they still using Terry Prone?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭ Yellow_Fern


    Just for clarity and palatable for the community, the new hospital will have no catholic restrictions on the termination of 'parasitic balls of cells' that are known to grow in women and which that we as a society treat as bereavements when they die naturally. This seems to be main issue that objectors had.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,036 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Bannasidhe


    Just for clarity and palatable for the community, the new hospital will have no catholic restrictions on the termination of 'parasitic balls of cells' that are known to grow in women and which that we as a society treat as bereavements when they die naturally. This seems to be main issue that objectors had.

    MOD
    Yellow Fern - you are walking a very narrow line here. Keep up this soapboxing and rules lawyering and I will have no hesitation in escalating the sanctions imposed against you.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,332 Mod ✭✭✭✭ smacl


    Tell me, what are they getting in return? Personally I believe that should the hospital be built there it will most certainly see unethical 'healthcare' preformed there.

    Hopefully not. Unethical healthcare in this country at this point of consists of denying women options surrounding reproductive health, that the people of this country have clearly stated they are entitled to, which a minority take issue with largely because they fall foul of an anachronistic religious belief system. The attempt by a few to limit the healthcare options of others in this manner is deeply unethical.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭ Yellow_Fern


    smacl wrote: »
    Hopefully not. Unethical healthcare in this country at this point of consists of denying women options surrounding reproductive health, that the people of this country have clearly stated they are entitled to, which a minority take issue with largely because they fall foul of an anachronistic religious belief system. The attempt by a few to limit the healthcare options of others in this manner is deeply unethical.

    Which hospitals do you refer too? Or do you mean individuals doctors?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,332 Mod ✭✭✭✭ smacl


    Which hospitals do you refer too? Or do you mean individuals doctors?

    Any and every publicly funded healthcare organisation or individual that would actively seek to limit any woman's options surrounding reproductive health. While I don't have any issue with individuals refusing to take part in such activities directly on the grounds of conscientious objection, I would take serious issue with others, who do not share that objection, being pressured or forced to behave similarly.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭ Yellow_Fern


    smacl wrote: »
    Any and every publicly funded healthcare organisation or individual that would actively seek to limit any woman's options surrounding reproductive health. While I don't have any issue with individuals refusing to take part in such activities directly on the grounds of conscientious objection, I would take serious issue with others, who do not share that objection, being pressured or forced to behave similarly.

    Ok so your point is a hypothetical and isn't in relation to the national maternity hospital. Gotcha


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,332 Mod ✭✭✭✭ smacl


    Ok so your point is a hypothetical and isn't in relation to the national maternity hospital. Gotcha

    It most definitely relates to the NMH as the current situation leaves a private organisation with a strong Catholic ethos in a position of influence over the future of the hospital. In my opinion, our government should not expose us to this risk, and should use an alternative site given the circumstances. While the site value is substantial, it is a very small portion of the final cost of getting the hospital up and running and public funds are such that we won't get a second chance at this. The people of this country have made it clear as to the type of healthcare they want going forward and it is incumbent on the government to deliver this. Any possibility that this could be compromised by unwanted religious interference in the future should be dealt with. I do not for a moment believe the mode in which the current site is being transferred is an act of charity, I believe it is one of opportunism.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭ Yellow_Fern


    smacl wrote: »
    It most definitely relates to the NMH as the current situation leaves a private organisation with a strong Catholic ethos in a position of influence over the future of the hospital. In my opinion, our government should not expose us to this risk, and should use an alternative site given the circumstances. While the site value is substantial, it is a very small portion of the final cost of getting the hospital up and running and public funds are such that we won't get a second chance at this. The people of this country have made it clear as to the type of healthcare they want going forward and it is incumbent on the government to deliver this. Any possibility that this could be compromised by unwanted religious interference in the future should be dealt with. I do not for a moment believe the mode in which the current site is being transferred is an act of charity, I believe it is one of opportunism.

    Your opinion doesn't override the facts that the sisters have no levers enforce a Catholic ethos and never intended too. Nor will they have any ownership of the land or the hospital. Nether will they sit on the board. Even if they sat on the board, it wouldn't give them power over the NMH. The protests on this matter achieved nothing. The protests on this matter were a frenzy of misinformation led by an opportunistic media. There was never going to be a Catholic ethos.

    To quote Simon Harris responding to Deputy Brid Smith on questions she had raised about the independence of the new National Maternity Hospital. “no matter how often I say it, the deputy will never be convinced or accept it because she wants to be in the politics of protest”.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,956 ✭✭✭✭ aloyisious


    Your opinion doesn't override the facts that the sisters have no levers enforce a Catholic ethos and never intended too. Nor will they have any ownership of the land or the hospital. There was never going to be a Catholic ethos.

    Does this mean that you are of the opinion that the nuns were never under an RC ethical obligation to the RC Church and faith to have absolutely nothing to do with a hospital providing an abortion-service to women on the SVH grounds they own AND that the order would have no objections at all to such operations taking place on their property where SVH is located?

    Is it your opinion that the reports of clashes between the RC anti-abortion ethics they were bound to by their faith and the Vatican as against the stated intent of the master of the new NMH to continue the abortion service provided to women at the Holles St NMH were all fake reports?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭ Yellow_Fern


    aloyisious wrote: »
    Does this mean that you are of the opinion that the nuns were never under an RC ethical obligation to the RC Church and faith to have absolutely nothing to do with a hospital providing an abortion-service to women on the SVH grounds they own AND that the order would have no objections at all to such operations taking place on their property where SVH is located?

    As I understand they would totally be opposed to abortion, but were long winding down active management of St Vincents and their desire to help the mothers of Ireland have a first rate hospital as soon as possible, took precedence over any desire to fight to reduce abortion, which would be probably unwinnable. The idea that Catholic law requires no abortions to take place in NMH is a theory forwarded by Dr. Peter Boylan. It isn't correct. The land transfer that took place under company law, not canon law. H eisnt a lawyer, let alone a canon lawyer.
    aloyisious wrote: »
    Is it your opinion that the reports of clashes between the RC anti-abortion ethics they were bound to by their faith and the Vatican as against the stated intent of the master of the new NMH to continue the abortion service provided to women at the Holles St NMH were all fake reports?

    If that was what reported, it was grossly false. I think it is based on what Bishop Doran said in 2017 in a famous Times interview where he said catholics have to be catholics? The bishop however, prefaced his comments in the same interview with

    "the NMH is not in his diocese and he was unfamiliar with the legal relationship between the Sisters of Charity and St Vincent’s Healthcare Group (SVHG)."


    So yeah the elements of the media exaggerated and manipulates the situation to sell papers. Church bashing sells papers, the truth often doesn't.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,956 ✭✭✭✭ aloyisious


    The SVHG was set up to facilitate the handover of the orders property and the building of the new NMH there. It seems to me that the order would have had ethical problems with abortion prior to any deal and to the Bishop Doran interview with the Times newspaper.

    It seems to be your opinion that the order would have had no ethical problem with disposing of its SVH property rights to SVHG regardless of what was to be built there under the deal with the HSE [Govt and state] via SVHG, regardless of Bishop Doran having opined in a major newspaper that [Roman] Catholics would have to be [Roman] Catholics. One would have to presume the bishop was referring to the order when he mentioned [Roman] Catholics in relation to the new NMH and the SVHG as neither the NMH or SVHG were likely to have any such ethical problems with any abortion procedures carried out there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭ Yellow_Fern


    aloyisious wrote: »
    The SVHG was set up to facilitate the handover of the orders property and the building of the new NMH there. It seems to me that the order would have had ethical problems with abortion prior to any deal and to the Bishop Doran interview with the Times newspaper.

    It seems to be your opinion that the order would have had no ethical problem with disposing of its SVH property rights to SVHG regardless of what was to be built there under the deal with the HSE [Govt and state] via SVHG, regardless of Bishop Doran having opined in a major newspaper that [Roman] Catholics would have to be [Roman] Catholics. One would have to presume the bishop was referring to the order when he mentioned [Roman] Catholics in relation to the new NMH and the SVHG as neither the NMH or SVHG were likely to have any such ethical problems with any abortion procedures carried out there.

    At some level yes Doran was referring to Sisters of Charity, but he said in relation to “ecclesiastical property”, the land isnt “ecclesiastical property” and Doran didn't claim it was. He said he didnt know in the interview. Even if the NMH is “ecclesiastical property” good luck getting an Irish court to enforce canon law.


  • Registered Users Posts: 670 ✭✭✭ Bellbottoms


    Your opinion doesn't override the facts that the sisters have no levers enforce a Catholic ethos and never intended too. Nor will they have any ownership of the land or the hospital. Nether will they sit on the board. Even if they sat on the board, it wouldn't give them power over the NMH. The protests on this matter achieved nothing. The protests on this matter were a frenzy of misinformation led by an opportunistic media. There was never going to be a Catholic ethos.

    To quote Simon Harris responding to Deputy Brid Smith on questions she had raised about the independence of the new National Maternity Hospital. “no matter how often I say it, the deputy will never be convinced or accept it because she wants to be in the politics of protest”.


    If the sisters don't want to have any influence on the new hospital, then why not gift the land to the state. Or use part of the lands value to offset what they owe from the redress scheme.


  • Registered Users Posts: 670 ✭✭✭ Bellbottoms


    Just for clarity and palatable for the community, the new hospital will have no catholic restrictions on the termination of 'parasitic balls of cells' that are known to grow in women and which that we as a society treat as bereavements when they die naturally. This seems to be main issue that objectors had.

    Now you are trying to muddy the waters. To be frank it's disgusting.

    There is a big difference in a 5 week old bundle of cells and a 38 week baby.

    One is a missed or late period. The other an almost full term baby that has to be delivered.

    You should be ashamed of yourself for such a bad faith comparison.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭ Yellow_Fern


    If the sisters don't want to have any influence on the new hospital, then why not gift the land to the state. Or use part of the lands value to offset what they owe from the redress scheme.

    They dont owe anything. If it is us who owe them. They were entitled to millions in legal fees from the redress scheme which they waivered.
    then why not gift the land to the state
    I believe to avoid competing clinical and corporate governance with St Vincent's.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 670 ✭✭✭ Bellbottoms



    I believe to avoid competing clinical and corporate governance with St Vincent's.


    I am a bit confused, can you explain like I am five if you don't mind l.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,956 ✭✭✭✭ aloyisious


    I frankly don't understand what “ecclesiastical property” has to do with the order or the transfer of the order's property to a non-church body such as the SVHG as the property is NOT church property. Likewise for more mention of what a bishop said to a newspaper.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,332 Mod ✭✭✭✭ smacl


    That isn't true though. You are propagating a fake story.

    Mod:Carded for beach of charter. You are essentially calling another poster a liar here. Any response via PM only. Please read and understand the charter before posting here again




  • smacl wrote: »
    Hopefully not. Unethical healthcare in this country at this point of consists of denying women options surrounding reproductive health, that the people of this country have clearly stated they are entitled to, which a minority take issue with largely because they fall foul of an anachronistic religious belief system. The attempt by a few to limit the healthcare options of others in this manner is deeply unethical.
    A belief system which does not recognise objective morality or natural law, and reduces "ethics" to base (alleged) majoritarianism (well, when they agree with it at least, this pillar goes out the window when the "enlightened" disagree with majority opinion in their locale, don't even mention the opinions of the majority of the worlds inhabitants :)) is hardly one which is progressive. Indeed, a belief system which reduces the right of a person to his/her life to such a base position that their life depends on the arbitrary decision of another is undoubtedly backwards, no matter how euphemistically it is dressed up.

    In any case, the point being made was that it appears that should the hospital be built there it will operate as a state hospital, with the state deciding on how it is run. But it is revealing that some here are so worried that a proposed Maternity hospital, a type of hospital traditionally built to help save the lives of babies, may not (despite the assurances otherwise of the state and others) terminate the unborn that they feel that the hospital should be built elsewhere at much greater expense (and of course, be massively delayed).

    It seems that the majority of commentary is mere hand-wringing about things, more than a little kicking of Catholics, but very little in the way of realistic proposals that will be palatable to all concerned. I think that the state should either outright offer to buy the land at market rates, or buy land elsewhere, or build on land they already own and leave the sisters out of it. As for the Sisters, should their over-generous offer be declined, I think they should probably sell the land and use the funds in the developing world where they are much needed, or to expand hospice care in Ireland.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,332 Mod ✭✭✭✭ smacl


    I think that the state should either outright offer to buy the land at market rates, or buy land elsewhere, or build on land they already own and leave the sisters out of it.

    Agreed, I think this would be the best outcome all round. The reasonable concerns raised by Peter Boylan and others is such that current solution could put the future of this hospital at risk of being subject to unwanted external interference and even claims of ownership. The site cost at current market rates makes up a small portion of the overall project cost, which has already spiraled upwards. My personal feeling is that the facility should always have been in a greenfield site, outside of the city, in an area well serviced with public transport and ample provision for free parking.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,332 Mod ✭✭✭✭ smacl


    Now you are trying to muddy the waters. To be frank it's disgusting.

    There is a big difference in a 5 week old bundle of cells and a 38 week baby.

    One is a missed or late period. The other an almost full term baby that has to be delivered.

    You should be ashamed of yourself for such a bad faith comparison.

    Mod warning: While I realise the post you are reacting to could be considered intentionally incendiary, I would remind you to play the ball and not the man in any comments. Thanks for your attention.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,036 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Bannasidhe


    *mod snipped as off-topic*.

    MOD.

    I agree the question is valid, however I question if the question is on-topic for this thread. You have asked it elsewhere (and not been answered) and while you may wish an answer, the non-respondent is under no obligation to respond notwithstanding we can draw our own conclusions from their silence.
    By repeating the question in this thread - should the non-respondent respond that will only drag this thread off topic and tbh it's too important an issue for it to become another free- rolling prove god(s) exist thread. We have many many of those already.

    Can everyone please stay on topic or at least in the ball park of the topic?

    Thanking you.



    UPDATE

    A new thread has been created where the off-topic question posed by Nozz and the equally off topic response from ex loco refugii - (which flagrantly disregarded a mod instruction to not post on that topic in this thread and is veeery luck to have escaped being sanctioned for that reason) - can be discussed https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058192111.





  • smacl wrote: »
    Agreed, I think this would be the best outcome all round. The reasonable concerns raised by Peter Boylan and others are such that current solution could put the future of this hospital at risk of being subject to unwanted external interference and even claims of ownership. The site cost at current market rates makes up a small portion of the overall project cost, which has already spiraled upwards. My personal feeling is that the facility should always have been in a greenfield site, outside of the city, in an area well serviced with public transport and ample provision for free parking.
    Is anywhere "well serviced" with public transport in Ireland? :D Yeah, the habit of sticking everything in Dublin is bad enough, without also sticking them in awkward to get to bits of Dublin too. But knowing Ireland if the deal doesn't go through it won't be built at all, or at least anytime soon. :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,224 ✭✭✭✭ AndrewJRenko


    smacl wrote: »
    Agreed, I think this would be the best outcome all round. The reasonable concerns raised by Peter Boylan and others are such that current solution could put the future of this hospital at risk of being subject to unwanted external interference and even claims of ownership. The site cost at current market rates makes up a small portion of the overall project cost, which has already spiraled upwards. My personal feeling is that the facility should always have been in a greenfield site, outside of the city, in an area well serviced with public transport and ample provision for free parking.

    Why should parking be free? There's no such thing as free parking. It costs money to provide and manage parking facilities. So the only question is whether the people who benefit from the parking pay for it, or does everyone pay for it, including those who don't use it.


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  • Why should parking be free? There's no such thing as free parking. It costs money to provide and manage parking facilities. So the only question is whether the people who benefit from the parking pay for it, or does everyone pay for it, including those who don't use it.
    Because it is wrong for people to come out of hospital, possibly after a bereavement or other difficulty, only for their car to be clamped because their loved one took 20 minutes longer to die than expected (this has happened).


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