Random EV thoughts.....

MJohnston · 04-06-2021 09:32AM

I think a little bit of what I said about charging infrastructure applies to something like buying electric buses — if you order 300 electric buses now, they will be out of date within 2 years.

zg3409 · 04-06-2021 09:34AM

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

The worst part is that there are plenty of electric buses available now

In other sectors like long range haulage there literally isn't an electric option in the market yet, so they have no choice but to buy diesel

But electric city buses have been around for years, Dublin bus could order 300 of them tomorrow and they'd probably be delivered before the end of the year

There is typically a replacement plan from the NTA, but the other big factor is chargers at base, and that some routes may be above the range needed such as more rural parts of Dublin. In china I saw they moved some of their depot's to suit range or available power, that would cause union issues.

I am not saying it can't be done, particularly on one or two routes right now, but a massive rollout would be crazy expensive and might not make financial sense if you ignore pollution concerns. Heck hardly any government vehicles are EV, even though they are off the shelf in stock. Dublin bus has a few token full EV cars so at least they have some idea of real world issues.

Existing depot's may not have the power needed locally and they may not be in the right position for the range of some routes.

unkel · 04-06-2021 09:51AM

Nobody is saying DB should dump all existing buses today and replace them all with electric buses by the end of the year.

They are still buying bloody diesels though for any old bus they replace, they should ONLY buy pure EVs

innrain · 04-06-2021 09:58AM

Black_Knight wrote: »

As I say, 2050 is such an easy target to hit they could literally do nothing about it for 10-15 years and still be fully electric by 2050 without breaking a sweat.

And they don't care anyway as they will be long retired to see it happening. Hec I'd be retired if still alive, using a self driving Dacia Spring XXI to get me through the bore tunnel to Ibitza which would be the defacto retiree island. People will smoke diesel bricks to remember the old times. Guinness Storehouse will lose its title of no1 attraction to the Broadstone Dublin Bus depot the only place in the world where one can still inhale diesel fumes without paying.
[/end random]

cannco253 · 04-06-2021 10:09AM

Black_Knight wrote: »

Would love to see some X to Y route challenge in Ireland. Dublin to Kerry and back or something. A Wild atlantic way challenge would be interesting too, it's so desolate of chargers.

Heard about this earlier

Irish student proves his dad wrong by travelling length of Wild Atlantic Way in a Tesla

https://www.irishmirror.ie/lifestyle/motoring/irish-student-proves-dad-wrong-24245000

the_amazing_raisin · 04-06-2021 10:22AM

MJohnston wrote: »

I think a little bit of what I said about charging infrastructure applies to something like buying electric buses — if you order 300 electric buses now, they will be out of date within 2 years.

I'd actually say it's the opposite, because you have such a good idea now of what your routes and capacity are going to be for the next 10 years you can plan your energy needs quite easily

Even if your buses end up outdated it doesn't matter as long as they do what is needed

And one advantage with electric buses is they can make money while they aren't moving. If shift end is around 4pm and there's a number of buses in the depot with energy left in the batteries then you can sell that to the grid at peak demand times when it's quite valuable

Similarly, you can get paid to do grid balancing when there's excess wind or solar. The amount of capacity available in electric buses makes this viable and the technology already exists

MJohnston · 04-06-2021 11:20AM

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

I'd actually say it's the opposite, because you have such a good idea now of what your routes and capacity are going to be for the next 10 years you can plan your energy needs quite easily

Even if your buses end up outdated it doesn't matter as long as they do what is needed

And one advantage with electric buses is they can make money while they aren't moving. If shift end is around 4pm and there's a number of buses in the depot with energy left in the batteries then you can sell that to the grid at peak demand times when it's quite valuable

Similarly, you can get paid to do grid balancing when there's excess wind or solar. The amount of capacity available in electric buses makes this viable and the technology already exists

It should be noted that NTA have a procurement order out already for 800 fully-electric double-decker buses over the next 5 years:
https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/180289/0/0?returnUrl=ctm/Supplier/publictenders&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE

What do the NTA control in terms of bus fleet in Ireland? Bus Eireann have around 1200 buses, Dublin Bus around 1016, and Go Ahead Ireland about 140.

So 800 BEV buses in the next 5 years is around a third of the entire NTA fleet.

I would have to strongly disagree that it makes any sense to replace more of the fleet at any one time with BEV buses. Electric bus technology is even more rapidly improving compared to cars, and I think it's sensible enough to wait another 5 years before replacing anything more.

If you replace buses too early, you're not just wasting the money spent on them, but you're wasting the carbon used to produce them. Beyond that, does the NTA even have the budget to replace more than a third of their fleet at any one time? I very much doubt it.

The other thing I'll say is that buses aren't the real problem if we're talking about emissions. I think the most up-to-date statistic is that the average Dublin bus already generates 87% fewer emissions per person than the average car. Convert part of that fleet to BEV and another part to hybrid, and that figure is going to grow (or shrink depending on how you look at it).

unkel · 04-06-2021 12:17PM

MJohnston wrote: »

I think the most up-to-date statistic is that the average Dublin bus already generates 87% fewer emissions per person than the average car.

That's based on the Euro 6 emissions norms. We all know they look good on paper but the real life emissions are many times worse

That's the whole reason we are accelerating more quickly towards EVs, thanks to the diesel emissions cheating of VW and others

If this was the conspiracy theories forum, I might even have suggested it was Elon himself who wrote the cheat software and made sure it was caught :pac:

silver_sky · 04-06-2021 12:50PM

Black_Knight wrote: »

Economically that'd be a bit of a waste, but as buses die out they should be replaced with electrics. What's the oldest DB bus in operation these days? 10 years old maybe? As I say, 2050 is such an easy target to hit they could literally do nothing about it for 10-15 years and still be fully electric by 2050 without breaking a sweat.

Retrofit alongside replacement is the answer. If they're serious about sustainability then just buying new isn't the best or fastest way about it.

I don't see why they can't retrofit and refurbish buses. Paint and interior can be redone and is common in the private hire operators to extend the service life. Unless there's some serious structural issues...

the_amazing_raisin · 04-06-2021 02:14PM

silver_sky wrote: »

Retrofit alongside replacement is the answer. If they're serious about sustainability then just buying new isn't the best or fastest way about it.

I don't see why they can't retrofit and refurbish buses. Paint and interior can be redone and is common in the private hire operators to extend the service life. Unless there's some serious structural issues...

In general the changes are so extensive that it doesn't make sense economically. Remember the battery is the most expensive component, so it's not a massive saving

Better to replace the buses with electric as they reach end of life. Unfortunately DB are still buying diesel "hybrid" buses, which would probably release less pollution if they were literally set on fire

A simple commitment by DB and the NTA to not buy any more ICE vehicles where there is an electric or hydrogen alternative would go a long way

Black_Knight · 04-06-2021 02:18PM

cannco253 wrote: »

Heard about this earlier

Irish student proves his dad wrong by travelling length of Wild Atlantic Way in a Tesla

https://www.irishmirror.ie/lifestyle/motoring/irish-student-proves-dad-wrong-24245000

Full video posted earlier today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks6Bus6M4fw

Rich kids drive Tesla somewhat on the wild atlantic way, staying in luxury hotels.

Great footage mind you, but seems a bit like they skipped chunks of the wild atlantic way in favour of main roads and fancy hotels with tesla chargers. Fair play though.

McGiver · 04-06-2021 03:25PM

unkel wrote:

Yes they are still buying diesels. What else do you think they're buying. Diesels. They might have a tiny battery, but they're still puffing out cancerous emissions near people.

Unkel, I love you for this thing. Great that you always remind people what poison and disgusting technology the diesel is.

Cancerous toxic crap. Also, it costs the EU many bilions in "externalities" (dead and or sick people).

The sooner the diesel engine vehicles in cities are thrown to the dustbin of history the better. There should be no diesel engine used near human settlements and it should be legislated as the such at nearest opportunity. It belongs to the museums and antique collectors. I've no issue with collectors driving diesel cars for the craic on private property or away from the settlements.

04-06-2021 03:41PM

McGiver wrote: »

Unkel, I love you for this thing. Great that you always remind people what poison and disgusting technology the diesel is.

Cancerous toxic crap. Also, it costs the EU many bilions in "externalities" (dead and or sick people).

The sooner the diesel engine vehicles in cities are thrown to the dustbin of history the better. There should be no diesel engine used near human settlements and it should be legislated as the such at nearest opportunity. It belongs to the museums and antique collectors. I've no issue with collectors driving diesel cars for the craic on private property or away from the settlements.

I just picked up a new petrol car and looking at the engine bay I couldn't help but feel a huge sadness.

Obviously petrol isn't perfect but when you think how advanced, efficient, clean and low-maintenance petrol engines have become it's a bit sad that they're now going to be replaced.
But what really saddened me is that at this point in the evolution of combustion engines instead of refining petrol further and further we've spent the last almost 2-decades encouraging people out of 1-litre turbos that sit around silently and putting them into expensive, lumbering, rattling, filth-spewing diesel-engined cars.
I've probably mentioned before a few years ago I was visiting someone in Canada and sat on a street outside a pub it felt eerily quiet. I looked to the road and there was plenty of traffic, mostly pick-up trucks. Compared to 2-litre diesels everywhere here it was positively idyllic and no puffs of soot out of an old Volvo or Saab.

I had a bit of a thought last night (I know, need to be careful with that kind of stuff) and at this point I wonder if lowering the price of petrol would actually improve EV penetration. The car manufacturers seem to be taking huge profits on EVs and a big part of the price difference to consumers can be justified by not having to pay for petrol. I wouldn't be surprised if making petrol cheaper would help to lower the prices of EVs.

Black_Knight · 04-06-2021 03:58PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I just picked up a new petrol car and looking at the engine bay I couldn't help but feel a huge sadness.

Obviously petrol isn't perfect but when you think how advanced, efficient, clean and low-maintenance petrol engines have become it's a bit sad that they're now going to be replaced.
But what really saddened me is that at this point in the evolution of combustion engines instead of refining petrol further and further we've spent the last almost 2-decades encouraging people out of 1-litre turbos that sit around silently and putting them into expensive, lumbering, rattling, filth-spewing diesel-engined cars.
I've probably mentioned before a few years ago I was visiting someone in Canada and sat on a street outside a pub it felt eerily quiet. I looked to the road and there was plenty of traffic, mostly pick-up trucks. Compared to 2-litre diesels everywhere here it was positively idyllic and no puffs of soot out of an old Volvo or Saab.

I had a bit of a thought last night (I know, need to be careful with that kind of stuff) and at this point I wonder if lowering the price of petrol would actually improve EV penetration. The car manufacturers seem to be taking huge profits on EVs and a big part of the price difference to consumers can be justified by not having to pay for petrol. I wouldn't be surprised if making petrol cheaper would help to lower the prices of EVs.

I can never understand people who buy the mini one diesel.

unkel · 04-06-2021 11:39PM

Black_Knight wrote: »

I can never understand people who buy the mini one diesel.

Well most diesels really. But the ones that gets me most is you see a beautiful and elegant car like a Mercedes coupe or an Audi convertible and then they drive away and you hear that rough agricultural clatter :rolleyes:

Mod Note: Snip, keep it appropriate

Atlantic Dawn · 05-06-2021 12:27AM

Black_Knight wrote: »

I can never understand people who buy the mini one diesel.

Or diesel convertibles. They were swindled by the cheap motor tax offering and salesmen who sold them a pup, some didn't even know their car needed long drives or adblue.

Irishjg · 05-06-2021 10:38AM

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Or diesel convertibles. They were swindled by the cheap motor tax offering and salesmen who sold them a pup, some didn't even know their car needed long drives or adblue.

I honestly believe the issues with diesel have not been properly addressed in this country. Sure it’s changing but at a very slow pace. Most people I know have diesel engined cars because they were led/enticed down that path by government policy and the motor industry. Even though I’m asked a lot of questions about my EV, I’m not convinced any of my mates intend or will change. Reasons they give are a mix of financial outlay, mistrust in EVs, lack of infrastructure, procrastination for cars with better range and lots of other issues too. Sadly I can’t see diesel going anywhere for a long time.

Roger_007 · 05-06-2021 11:54AM

Irishjg wrote: »

I honestly believe the issues with diesel have not been properly addressed in this country. Sure it’s changing but at a very slow pace. Most people I know have diesel engined cars because they were led/enticed down that path by government policy and the motor industry. Even though I’m asked a lot of questions about my EV, I’m not convinced any of my mates intend or will change. Reasons they give are a mix of financial outlay, mistrust in EVs, lack of infrastructure, procrastination for cars with better range and lots of other issues too. Sadly I can’t see diesel going anywhere for a long time.

I think that the major issue with EVs that has not been addressed yet is the cost to the state, (you and me), of the changeover from ICE vehicles.
Current policy is to replace about 1 million ICE vehicles with EVs by 2030.
At present each new EV costs the state about €10k in grants and waived VRT. So, to replace 1 million vehicles will have an up-front cost of €10 billion. Added to that is the revenue which will be lost on an ongoing basis from loss of excise duties on fuel sales.
Im sure that the gurus in the Dept of Finance must be hatching some new ways to raise revenue from the motoring sector but I’ve yet to hear anything about it.

electricus · 05-06-2021 12:18PM

Roger_007 wrote: »

I think that the major issue with EVs that has not been addressed yet is the cost to the state, (you and me), of the changeover from ICE vehicles.
Current policy is to replace about 1 million ICE vehicles with EVs by 2030.
At present each new EV costs the state about €10k in grants and waived VRT. So, to replace 1 million vehicles will have an up-front cost of €10 billion. Added to that is the revenue which will be lost on an ongoing basis from loss of excise duties on fuel sales.
Im sure that the gurus in the Dept of Finance must be hatching some new ways to raise revenue from the motoring sector but I’ve yet to hear anything about it.

The electricifation of transport, and a move to renewable energy sources has the potential to save money in the long term and reduce our dependance on imports (keeping money in the economy).

Currently dependent on oil and gas imports for our transport energy, at a cost of about €5bn pa. We also face EU fines for failing to meet emissions targets.

MJohnston · 05-06-2021 02:38PM

Roger_007 wrote: »

I think that the major issue with EVs that has not been addressed yet is the cost to the state, (you and me), of the changeover from ICE vehicles.
Current policy is to replace about 1 million ICE vehicles with EVs by 2030.
At present each new EV costs the state about €10k in grants and waived VRT. So, to replace 1 million vehicles will have an up-front cost of €10 billion. Added to that is the revenue which will be lost on an ongoing basis from loss of excise duties on fuel sales.
Im sure that the gurus in the Dept of Finance must be hatching some new ways to raise revenue from the motoring sector but I’ve yet to hear anything about it.

The reality is that state subsidies aren’t for consumers’ benefit, they’re for manufacturers.

I don’t even mean that this is how they’ve accidentally panned out, I’m fairly sure that there was just an unspoken agreement that the only way to get car manufacturers to more rapidly create electric fleets would be to essentially bribe them.

Otherwise, a rebate subsidy is just about the absolute worst way to achieve lower prices for consumers.

KCross · 05-06-2021 02:54PM

Roger_007 wrote: »

Current policy is to replace about 1 million ICE vehicles with EVs by 2030.
At present each new EV costs the state about €10k in grants and waived VRT. So, to replace 1 million vehicles will have an up-front cost of €10 billion.

Those incentives will be long gone before 2030 or 1m EV's being on our roads so all that revenue wont be lost at all.

Roger_007 wrote: »

Added to that is the revenue which will be lost on an ongoing basis from loss of excise duties on fuel sales.
Im sure that the gurus in the Dept of Finance must be hatching some new ways to raise revenue from the motoring sector...

You can be sure of that. Road pricing, increases in general taxation, motor tax etc will all go up.

Roger_007 · 05-06-2021 03:23PM

KCross wrote: »

Those incentives will be long gone before 2030 or 1m EV's being on our roads so all that revenue wont be lost at all.

You can be sure of that. Road pricing, increases in general taxation, motor tax etc will all go up.

I don’t think that the price of an EV is going to drop by anything like the amount of the subsidisation even when volumes ramp up. So this means that the effective price to the consumer will steadily increase. Even with substantial subsidies the prices of EVs are already vey high compared to the equivalent ICEV. Hopefully the low running costs will compensate for the initial high price.

mfceiling · 05-06-2021 05:06PM

So I pulled into Birdhill 10 minutes ago for my first ever time to use a supercharger.

One model 3 on the first of the banks and one on the third. I am aware of not taking a charger on the same bank so I went to 4 and it's not working. Grand I'll go to 2..... except for a fat young one sitting in it in a Micra on her phone. I really couldn't have been more unpleasant..."you'll have to move so I can charge"...."yeah gimme a minute"..."no now please"....big huffy head on her as she drove off.

Currently in the third bank is a red Audi A4 beside the other model 3. There are loads and loads of free spaces so I don't understand why they'd park in a place exclusively for EV's.

Irishjg · 05-06-2021 07:12PM

mfceiling wrote: »

So I pulled into Birdhill 10 minutes ago for my first ever time to use a supercharger.

One model 3 on the first of the banks and one on the third. I am aware of not taking a charger on the same bank so I went to 4 and it's not working. Grand I'll go to 2..... except for a fat young one sitting in it in a Micra on her phone. I really couldn't have been more unpleasant..."you'll have to move so I can charge"...."yeah gimme a minute"..."no now please"....big huffy head on her as she drove off.

Currently in the third bank is a red Audi A4 beside the other model 3. There are loads and loads of free spaces so I don't understand why they'd park in a place exclusively for EV's.

It’s hard to fathom but yeah it happens. I can think of two reasons. A, they are ignorant and don’t know any different or B, they are an ignorant pr1ck and do know the difference. The fat young one was probably an A. The Audi driver was probably a B.

the_amazing_raisin · 05-06-2021 08:41PM

mfceiling wrote: »

So I pulled into Birdhill 10 minutes ago for my first ever time to use a supercharger.

One model 3 on the first of the banks and one on the third. I am aware of not taking a charger on the same bank so I went to 4 and it's not working. Grand I'll go to 2..... except for a fat young one sitting in it in a Micra on her phone. I really couldn't have been more unpleasant..."you'll have to move so I can charge"...."yeah gimme a minute"..."no now please"....big huffy head on her as she drove off.

Currently in the third bank is a red Audi A4 beside the other model 3. There are loads and loads of free spaces so I don't understand why they'd park in a place exclusively for EV's.

I haven't been to Birdhill but the other superchargers I've seen were in areas with lots of parking around and away from shops

You'd have to be some clown or deliberately being an arsehole to park there

05-06-2021 10:56PM

Irishjg wrote: »

I honestly believe the issues with diesel have not been properly addressed in this country. Sure it’s changing but at a very slow pace. Most people I know have diesel engined cars because they were led/enticed down that path by government policy and the motor industry. Even though I’m asked a lot of questions about my EV, I’m not convinced any of my mates intend or will change. Reasons they give are a mix of financial outlay, mistrust in EVs, lack of infrastructure, procrastination for cars with better range and lots of other issues too. Sadly I can’t see diesel going anywhere for a long time.

Nobody I know would buy one. They are too expensive, wildly costly to fix out of warranty, nobody wants ever to have to queue for an hour to take 40 more minutes to refuel. You have to drive like my mother to get 70% of the quoted range. Great on paper, but we don't drive on paper.

MJohnston · 05-06-2021 11:06PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Nobody I know would buy one. They are too expensive, wildly costly to fix out of warranty, nobody wants ever to have to queue for an hour to take 40 more minutes to refuel. You have to drive like my mother to get 70% of the quoted range. Great on paper, but we don't drive on paper.

Mad stuff

irishgrover · 05-06-2021 11:29PM

They are expensive, but the EVs I've had have significantly better spec then the cars they tend to be compared to, and for me total cost of ownership is significantly cheaper than a 3 or 4 year old 2lt diesel.
I've driven 100,000+ in the last 3 years with a lot (and I mean a lot) of fast charging - twice today for example. The last time I had to wait for a charger was certainly close to or more than 3 years ago.
Re fixing out of warranty previously car was hyundai, current one is Kia, both have very extensive warranties.
My current EV is getting 440km per charger. Its advertised as "up to 450". (In fairness I'm been doing limited motorway driving in the last couple of months)
I've never had diesel or petrol that comes close to advertised mpg... ever

06-06-2021 12:37AM

MJohnston wrote: »

Mad stuff

Maybe, but it's what people say

RandomViewer · 06-06-2021 12:41AM

McGiver wrote: »

Unkel, I love you for this thing. Great that you always remind people what poison and disgusting technology the diesel is.

Cancerous toxic crap. Also, it costs the EU many bilions in "externalities" (dead and or sick people).

The sooner the diesel engine vehicles in cities are thrown to the dustbin of history the better. There should be no diesel engine used near human settlements and it should be legislated as the such at nearest opportunity. It belongs to the museums and antique collectors. I've no issue with collectors driving diesel cars for the craic on private property or away from the settlements.

Need to sort smoking first, smoking effects more people than any diesel engine but because almost all "Greens" smoke like trains ,it's ignored. Blaming the diesel engine over people dying from cancer who smoke 60 a day is hilarious ,

Random EV thoughts.....

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