Forced to work from home

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Only if the employee registers as a French worker. Otherwise how would tax authorities know. Of course some companies may worry about it but it’s probably not something that the average joe has to worry about.

The Irish revenue doesn’t want to investigate Irish taxpayers who might have stayed in France a bit too long, and the French authorities would hardly know about it. You don’t have to tell them you are there for 3 months anyway.

There’s also the idea of domicile. If you don’t stay anywhere for 180 days in a year the tax authorities in countries where you have a house, are from, have family in, were born in will determine domicile. That works for the op.

Exactly, this is a line trotted out on behalf of institutional landlords of the ghost estate offices peppered about Dublin. You see it written in the papers every few months or so, where a lobby group pays for an article about something to do with tax reasons for the non-senior employees needing to return to Ireland.

However, there is never a reference to the specific tax laws at play. Additionally, even if there were some specific laws that required the worker bees boots on the ground in Ireland why would the Irish Revenue Commissioners go poking around too closely and risk biting the MNC hand that feeds? Meanwhile, the French tax authorities aren't able to actually monitor the employee of the Irish company who is working in France and it is they who are the ones that would actually try to argue the company has a tax presence in France.

The Student wrote: »

Employment laws and income taxes rates very from country to country. Social insurance rates also differ.

No company is going to allow its staff work in another country without the proper company and tax set up.

Any company doing so will be contravening Irish law and will be fined accordingly.

Companies may have a legal entity in other countries and may agree to allow staff transfer to the legal structure in another country and the stahh are employees of that entity and are bound by the laws of that country.

The above may be facilitated for employees who the company wish to retain otherwise they might leave but for the majority of workers this will not be the case.

This is not some conspiracy by institutional landlords. It's EU law.

What laws are you referring to?

Because this is literally my point that people put out the words "law" and "tax" but don't even know what they are referring to themselves.

The Student wrote: »

Health & Safety act, Working time act to name two I know of. I expect a HR person can no doubt list others.

You did not ready the part in my post about in income tax and social insurance payments.

Can I suggest you Google them with your choice of destination and compare them with your current ones.

A lot of the posters on this forum have significant knowledge so if I were you I would temper your posts.

I note you still have not listed the laws which would not enable an employee in Ireland to work in France nor, I bet, can you give a concrete example of such laws operating in practice whereby an employee of an Irish company (not at senior management level) was hounded but he relevant authorities in Ireland or the other country to go back to Ireland.

Also, you are coming across ignorant and a bit dim with this post.

Amadan Dubh wrote: »

I note you still have not listed the laws which would not enable an employee in Ireland to work in France nor, I bet, can you give a concrete example of such laws operating in practice whereby an employee of an Irish company (not at senior management level) was hounded but he relevant authorities in Ireland or the other country to go back to Ireland.

Also, you are coming across ignorant and a bit dim with this post.

There are multiple issue with WFH employees being allowed to live in another country. For the company it means that this employee's tax and social insurance have to be regularised in that country. It might also risk companies having to pay corporation tax in that state on a portion of there profits.

The largest issue may be compliance costs. Recently I saw a thread on boards about an employer that was having a few employees based in the UK. Basic tax advice was going to cost 5k. The UK tax code is in English and not too dissimilar to Ireland. The Tax codes in France, Italy or Poland are totally different and in a different language. The cost of basic taxation advice for different states might cost 10 k/country.

As well you have registeration costs. Friend has a business partnership with his spouse. They wanted to employ a child revenue charge them about 65/ month in what is a PAYE registeration charge.

Even if allowing employees to WFH in another state allowed companies to save money on wages compliance and registeration costs would wipe out any savings for a company.

Jim2007 wrote: »

The EU/EEA/CH free movement agreements allow you to move to another member state to:
- Seek employment in that state for a period of three months, which may be extended for an additional three months
- To take up employment in that state
- To establish a business in that state
- For the purpose of family reunion
- Retirement provided you have sufficient income from none economic activity and will not become a burden on the state.
- Short trips in support of business activities such as training, coaching, maintenance and support etc.

There is no entitlement to move to France or any other part of the EU/EEA/CH and legally work remotely. The only exceptions are that you are already a French permanent resident, you moved for the purpose of family reunion or you were somehow able to obtain the required national visa.

Also, establishing a company in France or using an umbrella company fails to meet the criteria that would be required to employ you to work remotely.

Now you have shown such utter disrespect for others that I have intention in engaging you further in this nonsense. So have at it.

Peculiar response and you seem a bit confrontational and disrespectful.

Remember, as you are getting too upset to address the point, a company incorporated and having its head office in Ireland, with its senior management based and decisions made/policy decided in Ireland, is at very little risk of rocking the boat for the work of its lowly customer service, sales, back office employees etc. Revenue in Ireland are not going to look the tax gift horse in the mouth and, further, practically speaking in a WFH world, why would they go beyond asking to see where the employees have registered as their home address and where the bank account into which salaries are paid is located? If employees address with the company and bank account are in Ireland, there is very little for the company to be concerned of after that. Unless you have evidence that Revenue can and do in fact drill down further than that? Additionally, on the French or Spanish side, the humble employee who is a citizen of that country going about their business there, staying with family or renting a place, is, practically speaking, nearly impossible to classify as being French resident for tax purposes if you are the French tax authorities. Again, this is what the poster was highlighting and I agree with it.

So as I said above, no need to be so defensive or sensitive as well as ignorant to me. If you read back over the thread you'll see that I posted to agree with a poster, then The Student seemed to reply to me thinking I was someone else as he/she got offensive and attacking based on me simply agreeing with the other post.

Amadan Dubh wrote: »

Well you did get offensive and ignorant in replying to my first post in the thread which was an agreement to another poster so it is a bit rich for you to cry about getting responded to and called out as being rude, obnoxious and dim-witted.

Now, you refer to "other posters" but cannot back up your own reply to me. Remember, you referred to "other posters" and "Google" in your initial reply so you are the one throwing out statements with nothing to back it up. The onus is on you to put up or shut up as I am still questioning the practical implementation of the tax rules I am aware of, that you are not even highlighting and explaining how practically they would apply in a manner which would not make it possible to reside abroad while being employed (other than as a director or senior manager) with the Irish company.

The different legal min employment requirements have been highlighted to you already in this thread.

The different income tax, Social insurance payments have also been highlighted to you.

In normal circumstances I actually would help people with these type of queries but you seem to have an issue.

You are either unwilling or unable to check out why working from home in another country is not widely available.

I am therefore stepping away from responding to any of your future posts.

The Student wrote: »

The different legal min employment requirements have been highlighted to you already in this thread.

The different income tax, Social insurance payments have also been highlighted to you.

In normal circumstances I actually would help people with these type of queries but you seem to have an issue.

You are either unwilling or unable to check out why working from home in another country is not widely available.

I am therefore stepping away from responding to any of your future posts.

Agree to disagree, I'm fine with that. No point in both of us smashing our heads into brick walls.

I really can't understand the objection to wfh. The time wasted in commuting week in and out is something that is difficult to put a price on.

The ability to be able to choose not to have to live close to your work is just exceptional.

I work for a company that employs people throughout Europe. They're all either contractors (effectively self employed and they invoice the company for work) or there's an "employer of record" operating in that company and their legal relationship is with that employer of record. You can't just move to another European country for more than 6 months and maintain your existing contractual relationship with the Irish entity/Irish tax arrangements.

Deleted User wrote: »

This thread is all over the place now. Anyone who wants to work 100% from the office should explain it to their employer. Exceptions can usually be made. If not, find a new job with less onerous working from home conditions.

Sorry, but why would you need to explain it? Your contract (presuming that you were employed before Covid) is to work at an office location. If you employer is now choosing to change that, they need to explain it to the employee, and give them the option to opt out of any new arrangement.

Employers don't generally get to change terms and conditions unilaterally at the drop of a hat.

ineedeuro wrote: »

They do is the contract allows for it.

There are legal limits on the distance to which employers can unilaterally move location, regardless of what is in the contract.

What kind of contract allowed employers to take space in the employee's home free of charge?