Forced to work from home

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

You and I know that no means no.

But I've concluded that the extreme WFH fan-boys often have poor reading comprehension as well as mathematical ability. Probably not worth trying logical discussions with them.

You left logical discussion back in the 1980's, Mrs OBumble.

Along with a lot of your HR, ISD and office practices, apparently.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Only if the employee registers as a French worker. Otherwise how would tax authorities know. Of course some companies may worry about it but it’s probably not something that the average joe has to worry about.

The Irish revenue doesn’t want to investigate Irish taxpayers who might have stayed in France a bit too long, and the French authorities would hardly know about it. You don’t have to tell them you are there for 3 months anyway.

There’s also the idea of domicile. If you don’t stay anywhere for 180 days in a year the tax authorities in countries where you have a house, are from, have family in, were born in will determine domicile. That works for the op.

Exactly, this is a line trotted out on behalf of institutional landlords of the ghost estate offices peppered about Dublin. You see it written in the papers every few months or so, where a lobby group pays for an article about something to do with tax reasons for the non-senior employees needing to return to Ireland.

However, there is never a reference to the specific tax laws at play. Additionally, even if there were some specific laws that required the worker bees boots on the ground in Ireland why would the Irish Revenue Commissioners go poking around too closely and risk biting the MNC hand that feeds? Meanwhile, the French tax authorities aren't able to actually monitor the employee of the Irish company who is working in France and it is they who are the ones that would actually try to argue the company has a tax presence in France.

Amadan Dubh wrote: »

Exactly, this is a line trotted out on behalf of institutional landlords of the ghost estate offices peppered about Dublin. You see it written in the papers every few months or so, where a lobby group pays for an article about something to do with tax reasons for the non-senior employees needing to return to Ireland.

However, there is never a reference to the specific tax laws at play. Additionally, even if there were some specific laws that required the worker bees boots on the ground in Ireland why would the Irish Revenue Commissioners go poking around too closely and risk biting the MNC hand that feeds? Meanwhile, the French tax authorities aren't able to actually monitor the employee of the Irish company who is working in France and it is they who are the ones that would actually try to argue the company has a tax presence in France.

Employment laws and income taxes rates very from country to country. Social insurance rates also differ.

No company is going to allow its staff work in another country without the proper company and tax set up.

Any company doing so will be contravening Irish law and will be fined accordingly.

Companies may have a legal entity in other countries and may agree to allow staff transfer to the legal structure in another country and the stahh are employees of that entity and are bound by the laws of that country.

The above may be facilitated for employees who the company wish to retain otherwise they might leave but for the majority of workers this will not be the case.

This is not some conspiracy by institutional landlords. It's EU law.

The Student wrote: »

Employment laws and income taxes rates very from country to country. Social insurance rates also differ.

No company is going to allow its staff work in another country without the proper company and tax set up.

Any company doing so will be contravening Irish law and will be fined accordingly.

Companies may have a legal entity in other countries and may agree to allow staff transfer to the legal structure in another country and the stahh are employees of that entity and are bound by the laws of that country.

The above may be facilitated for employees who the company wish to retain otherwise they might leave but for the majority of workers this will not be the case.

This is not some conspiracy by institutional landlords. It's EU law.

What laws are you referring to?

Because this is literally my point that people put out the words "law" and "tax" but don't even know what they are referring to themselves.

Amadan Dubh wrote: »

What laws are you referring to?

Because this is literally my point that people put out the words "law" and "tax" but don't even know what they are referring to themselves.

Health & Safety act, Working time act to name two I know of. I expect a HR person can no doubt list others.

You did not ready the part in my post about in income tax and social insurance payments.

Can I suggest you Google them with your choice of destination and compare them with your current ones.

A lot of the posters on this forum have significant knowledge so if I were you I would temper your posts.

The Student wrote: »

Health & Safety act, Working time act to name two I know of. I expect a HR person can no doubt list others.

You did not ready the part in my post about in income tax and social insurance payments.

Can I suggest you Google them with your choice of destination and compare them with your current ones.

A lot of the posters on this forum have significant knowledge so if I were you I would temper your posts.

I note you still have not listed the laws which would not enable an employee in Ireland to work in France nor, I bet, can you give a concrete example of such laws operating in practice whereby an employee of an Irish company (not at senior management level) was hounded but he relevant authorities in Ireland or the other country to go back to Ireland.

Also, you are coming across ignorant and a bit dim with this post.

Mrs OBumble

Amadan Dubh wrote: »

I note you still have not listed the laws which would not enable an employee in Ireland to work in France nor, I bet, can you give a concrete example of such laws operating in practice whereby an employee of an Irish company (not at senior management level) was hounded but he relevant authorities in Ireland or the other country to go back to Ireland.

Also, you are coming across ignorant and a bit dim with this post.

You seriously expect posters in this forum to be familiar enough with French laws to be able to list them? Really?

I chose France for the example because I know that it has a higher minimum annual leave entitlement than Ireland (source).

I also know they have other rights around disconnection.

I also know that in general, if you live in a country you are subject to the laws in that country. I am 99.9999% sure that France has an equivalent to Ireland's Finance Act, which says that companies which employ people living there must operate their version of the PAYE system (which may be quite different to the one in Ireland).

Bass Reeves

Amadan Dubh wrote: »

I note you still have not listed the laws which would not enable an employee in Ireland to work in France nor, I bet, can you give a concrete example of such laws operating in practice whereby an employee of an Irish company (not at senior management level) was hounded but he relevant authorities in Ireland or the other country to go back to Ireland.

Also, you are coming across ignorant and a bit dim with this post.

There are multiple issue with WFH employees being allowed to live in another country. For the company it means that this employee's tax and social insurance have to be regularised in that country. It might also risk companies having to pay corporation tax in that state on a portion of there profits.

The largest issue may be compliance costs. Recently I saw a thread on boards about an employer that was having a few employees based in the UK. Basic tax advice was going to cost 5k. The UK tax code is in English and not too dissimilar to Ireland. The Tax codes in France, Italy or Poland are totally different and in a different language. The cost of basic taxation advice for different states might cost 10 k/country.

As well you have registeration costs. Friend has a business partnership with his spouse. They wanted to employ a child revenue charge them about 65/ month in what is a PAYE registeration charge.

Even if allowing employees to WFH in another state allowed companies to save money on wages compliance and registeration costs would wipe out any savings for a company.

Amadan Dubh wrote: »

I note you still have not listed the laws which would not enable an employee in Ireland to work in France nor, I bet, can you give a concrete example of such laws operating in practice whereby an employee of an Irish company (not at senior management level) was hounded but he relevant authorities in Ireland or the other country to go back to Ireland.

Also, you are coming across ignorant and a bit dim with this post.

You appear to be of the opinion that working in another country is ok so go for it.

Multiple posters have told you why you can't but you think you know better.

Your final paragraph does not even warrant a response. So I am not going to lower myself to personal insults.

ineedeuro

Depending on your company policies etc you may be able to work in another country. So it’s hard to answer on a public forum

If a multinational of course it is easier.

Contact HR and they will tell you exactly what you can/can’t do.

Jim2007

Amadan Dubh wrote: »

I note you still have not listed the laws which would not enable an employee in Ireland to work in France nor, I bet, can you give a concrete example of such laws operating in practice whereby an employee of an Irish company (not at senior management level) was hounded but he relevant authorities in Ireland or the other country to go back to Ireland.

Also, you are coming across ignorant and a bit dim with this post.

The EU/EEA/CH free movement agreements allow you to move to another member state to:
- Seek employment in that state for a period of three months, which may be extended for an additional three months
- To take up employment in that state
- To establish a business in that state
- For the purpose of family reunion
- Retirement provided you have sufficient income from none economic activity and will not become a burden on the state.
- Short trips in support of business activities such as training, coaching, maintenance and support etc.

There is no entitlement to move to France or any other part of the EU/EEA/CH and legally work remotely. The only exceptions are that you are already a French permanent resident, you moved for the purpose of family reunion or you were somehow able to obtain the required national visa.

Also, establishing a company in France or using an umbrella company fails to meet the criteria that would be required to employ you to work remotely.

Now you have shown such utter disrespect for others that I have intention in engaging you further in this nonsense. So have at it.

Deleted User wrote: »

That has to be up there amongst the most stupid thing I've seen posted against WFH yet.

So if employee went to their employer and asked for a permanent desk because they were experiencing difficulty working at home while caring for a dementia patient, you think their employer would say no? Because it might set a precedent?

Far from it. They are far more likely to say yes, thank you for being honest about the difficulties of your situation, and please come into the office and take this desk, where we know you will actually be able to concentrate on your work during the hours we're paying you for.

There are always going to be exceptions to every rule and employers will be prepared to make them. At least the decent ones will.

(Said as someone who took care of a parent with dementia, while working full time.)

My experience with HR is that exceptions must be included in the HR policies, otherwise they can't be accomodated

ineedeuro wrote: »

Depending on your company policies etc you may be able to work in another country. So it’s hard to answer on a public forum

If a multinational of course it is easier.

Contact HR and they will tell you exactly what you can/can’t do.

Regardless of the company's policies, you still can't work for more than 6 months + 1 day in another country other than Ireland if you are employed by an Irish based company

Jim2007 wrote: »

The EU/EEA/CH free movement agreements allow you to move to another member state to:
- Seek employment in that state for a period of three months, which may be extended for an additional three months
- To take up employment in that state
- To establish a business in that state
- For the purpose of family reunion
- Retirement provided you have sufficient income from none economic activity and will not become a burden on the state.
- Short trips in support of business activities such as training, coaching, maintenance and support etc.

There is no entitlement to move to France or any other part of the EU/EEA/CH and legally work remotely. The only exceptions are that you are already a French permanent resident, you moved for the purpose of family reunion or you were somehow able to obtain the required national visa.

Also, establishing a company in France or using an umbrella company fails to meet the criteria that would be required to employ you to work remotely.

Now you have shown such utter disrespect for others that I have intention in engaging you further in this nonsense. So have at it.

Peculiar response and you seem a bit confrontational and disrespectful.

Remember, as you are getting too upset to address the point, a company incorporated and having its head office in Ireland, with its senior management based and decisions made/policy decided in Ireland, is at very little risk of rocking the boat for the work of its lowly customer service, sales, back office employees etc. Revenue in Ireland are not going to look the tax gift horse in the mouth and, further, practically speaking in a WFH world, why would they go beyond asking to see where the employees have registered as their home address and where the bank account into which salaries are paid is located? If employees address with the company and bank account are in Ireland, there is very little for the company to be concerned of after that. Unless you have evidence that Revenue can and do in fact drill down further than that? Additionally, on the French or Spanish side, the humble employee who is a citizen of that country going about their business there, staying with family or renting a place, is, practically speaking, nearly impossible to classify as being French resident for tax purposes if you are the French tax authorities. Again, this is what the poster was highlighting and I agree with it.

So as I said above, no need to be so defensive or sensitive as well as ignorant to me. If you read back over the thread you'll see that I posted to agree with a poster, then The Student seemed to reply to me thinking I was someone else as he/she got offensive and attacking based on me simply agreeing with the other post.

The Student wrote: »

You appear to be of the opinion that working in another country is ok so go for it.

Multiple posters have told you why you can't but you think you know better.

Your final paragraph does not even warrant a response. So I am not going to lower myself to personal insults.

Well you did get offensive and ignorant in replying to my first post in the thread which was an agreement to another poster so it is a bit rich for you to cry about getting responded to and called out as being rude, obnoxious and dim-witted.

Now, you refer to "other posters" but cannot back up your own reply to me. Remember, you referred to "other posters" and "Google" in your initial reply so you are the one throwing out statements with nothing to back it up. The onus is on you to put up or shut up as I am still questioning the practical implementation of the tax rules I am aware of, that you are not even highlighting and explaining how practically they would apply in a manner which would not make it possible to reside abroad while being employed (other than as a director or senior manager) with the Irish company.

Amadan Dubh wrote: »

Well you did get offensive and ignorant in replying to my first post in the thread which was an agreement to another poster so it is a bit rich for you to cry about getting responded to and called out as being rude, obnoxious and dim-witted.

Now, you refer to "other posters" but cannot back up your own reply to me. Remember, you referred to "other posters" and "Google" in your initial reply so you are the one throwing out statements with nothing to back it up. The onus is on you to put up or shut up as I am still questioning the practical implementation of the tax rules I am aware of, that you are not even highlighting and explaining how practically they would apply in a manner which would not make it possible to reside abroad while being employed (other than as a director or senior manager) with the Irish company.

The different legal min employment requirements have been highlighted to you already in this thread.

The different income tax, Social insurance payments have also been highlighted to you.

In normal circumstances I actually would help people with these type of queries but you seem to have an issue.

You are either unwilling or unable to check out why working from home in another country is not widely available.

I am therefore stepping away from responding to any of your future posts.

Mic 1972 wrote: »

My experience with HR is that exceptions must be included in the HR policies, otherwise they can't be accomodated

Policies can be changed.

Eighteen months ago, many companies had policies which only allowed very limited or no working from home.

The pandemic and government restrictions forced companies into looking at WFH in a new light, and as a result many are now in the process of changing their policies.

I still hold that it's a very poor HR who would leave themselves with no discretion to make exceptions (post pandemic restrictions, obviously) where an exception would be in the best interest of both the employee and the company.

Happens all the time where I work. It's called making a "local arrangement". Normally agreed between employee > direct supervisor > head of function and finally HR.

The Student wrote: »

The different legal min employment requirements have been highlighted to you already in this thread.

The different income tax, Social insurance payments have also been highlighted to you.

In normal circumstances I actually would help people with these type of queries but you seem to have an issue.

You are either unwilling or unable to check out why working from home in another country is not widely available.

I am therefore stepping away from responding to any of your future posts.

Agree to disagree, I'm fine with that. No point in both of us smashing our heads into brick walls.

Jim2007

Mic 1972 wrote: »

Regardless of the company's policies, you still can't work for more than 6 months + 1 day in another country other than Ireland if you are employed by an Irish based company

Look the tax problem is not such a big issue as people posting here seem to think. I’ve been through this several times over the years and I have yet to see a single of it being prohibitive for companies that want to do it. The major thing is that it is codified so you can actually do it. And there are companies and consulting firms that can facilitate it.

The big problem is that once the employee wants to make a life for themselves where ever they relocate to they need to be able to provide the paperwork necessary to allow them to access the local services etc... and that is not possible unless the person is already able to justify their presence in the country for another reason.

If you just want to travel around and experience a bit of Europe for a while you can easily fly under the radar so long as you comply with the Schengen rules as that way you can be almost certain you won’t come in contact with officialdom. But once you want to settle down and establish a life it just does not work.

Jim2007 wrote: »

Look the tax problem is not such a big issue as people posting here seem to think. I’ve been through this several times over the years and I have yet to see a single of it being prohibitive for companies that want to do it. The major thing is that it is codified so you can actually do it. And there are companies and consulting firms that can facilitate it.

The big problem is that once the employee wants to make a life for themselves where ever they relocate to they need to be able to provide the paperwork necessary to allow them to access the local services etc... and that is not possible unless the person is already able to justify their presence in the country for another reason.

If you just want to travel around and experience a bit of Europe for a while you can easily fly under the radar so long as you comply with the Schengen rules as that way you can be almost certain you won’t come in contact with officialdom. But once you want to settle down and establish a life it just does not work.

By flying under the radar you are exposing the company to the risk of tax evasion, which is why companies are still strict about working from abroad.

Companies can and will check IP address of people working from remote to prevent the risk of employees breaking the 6 months rule

Deleted User wrote: »

Policies can be changed.

Eighteen months ago, many companies had policies which only allowed very limited or no working from home.

The pandemic and government restrictions forced companies into looking at WFH in a new light, and as a result many are now in the process of changing their policies.

I still hold that it's a very poor HR who would leave themselves with no discretion to make exceptions (post pandemic restrictions, obviously) where an exception would be in the best interest of both the employee and the company.

Happens all the time where I work. It's called making a "local arrangement". Normally agreed between employee > direct supervisor > head of function and finally HR.

When it comes to people management, consistency to polices is key. Exceptions are not the way to go. If many employees express a desire to change a specific policy sure the company will consider that, but exceptions to accommodate one single employee are always problematic because they create a precedent

jimmycrackcorm

I really can't understand the objection to wfh. The time wasted in commuting week in and out is something that is difficult to put a price on.

The ability to be able to choose not to have to live close to your work is just exceptional.

ineedeuro

Mic 1972 wrote: »

When it comes to people management, consistency to polices is key. Exceptions are not the way to go. If many employees express a desire to change a specific policy sure the company will consider that, but exceptions to accommodate one single employee are always problematic because they create a precedent

No it’s not. A good manager knows how to deal with and get the best out of everyone. Putting everyone into the same bracket and just ignoring them is a recipe for disaster

If what you said was true then companies wouldn’t be trying to bring in special needs people etc which should be a policy of every company.

Knowing that an employee has a special situation and might need a different approach is what makes a good manager and a good company

Mic 1972 wrote: »

When it comes to people management, consistency to polices is key. Exceptions are not the way to go. If many employees express a desire to change a specific policy sure the company will consider that, but exceptions to accommodate one single employee are always problematic because they create a precedent

Precedents are not set because local arrangements are typically made on an individual's circumstances, on a case by case basis. Other employees are not consulted, and typically would not even be aware where such arrangements have been put in place, or why.

It's not part of any written policy, but it is part of their practice. That's my experience across 30 years and multiple departments.

ftbman wrote: »

You can claim tax relief and other wfh related costs:
Heating
Electricity
Broadband
Other vouched expenses where they are “wholly, exclusively and necessarily” part of your work

Are you sure about the 'other vouched expenses'? When I went through claiming last year, there was nowhere to claim the costs of my desk and chair. It was just utilities and broadband.

whippet wrote: »

Ah come on - that is some over dramatic interpretation of the last year !!

The vast majority of people work from a laptop and a note book - close the laptop and the office is closed !!! What reminders are you seeing of your work day that you don’t normally see ?

No-one should be working permanently off a laptop screen. You need full size monitors.

whippet wrote: »

If I were inclined to think that my company were getting office space rent free from me - I’d also balance that with the not insignificant amount of money I have saved on my commute - tolls, diesel, wear and tear, after school care etc

Those costs that you're saving were very much YOUR costs when you paid them. You didn't get a pay rise when your childcare went up or when diesel went up.

Don't give your employer credit for savings that are nothing to do with them. They're your savings.

Then start the conversation about rent for the space you're providing...

Mic 1972 wrote: »

By flying under the radar you are exposing the company to the risk of tax evasion, which is why companies are still strict about working from abroad.

Companies can and will check IP address of people working from remote to prevent the risk of employees breaking the 6 months rule

You'd be getting both false positives and false negatives, given the use of VPNs.

Stark

I work for a company that employs people throughout Europe. They're all either contractors (effectively self employed and they invoice the company for work) or there's an "employer of record" operating in that company and their legal relationship is with that employer of record. You can't just move to another European country for more than 6 months and maintain your existing contractual relationship with the Irish entity/Irish tax arrangements.

This thread is all over the place now. Anyone who wants to work 100% from the office should explain it to their employer. Exceptions can usually be made. If not, find a new job with less onerous working from home conditions.

Deleted User wrote: »

This thread is all over the place now. Anyone who wants to work 100% from the office should explain it to their employer. Exceptions can usually be made. If not, find a new job with less onerous working from home conditions.

Sorry, but why would you need to explain it? Your contract (presuming that you were employed before Covid) is to work at an office location. If you employer is now choosing to change that, they need to explain it to the employee, and give them the option to opt out of any new arrangement.

Employers don't generally get to change terms and conditions unilaterally at the drop of a hat.

ineedeuro

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Sorry, but why would you need to explain it? Your contract (presuming that you were employed before Covid) is to work at an office location. If you employer is now choosing to change that, they need to explain it to the employee, and give them the option to opt out of any new arrangement.

Employers don't generally get to change terms and conditions unilaterally at the drop of a hat.

They do is the contract allows for it.