New v secondhand

Eggs For Dinner · 26-05-2021 7:44am #1

Probably a silly question, but just looking for a bit of advice. I need to change my car and have a max budget of 20k (I hate spending money on cars). My preference is a hatchback, just myself and the wife, approx 15k Kms a year. Not interested in bells and whistles, just comfortable, safe and economic to run

Would you go for a new basic new car (such as a Sandero,), with associated warranty, or a 2-3 year old used car with a better specification. I would be financing the car

Any thoughts

Allinall · 26-05-2021 7:48am

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

Probably a silly question, but just looking for a bit of advice. I need to change my car and have a max budget of 20k (I hate spending money on cars). My preference is a hatchback, just myself and the wife, approx 15k Kms a year. Not interested in bells and whistles, just comfortable, safe and economic to run

Would you go for a new basic new car (such as a Sandero,), with associated warranty, or a 2-3 year old used car with a better specification. I would be financing the car

Any thoughts

It would depend on how long you intend to keep the car.

If you are going to keep it for say 10 years +, then I would go new.

You will get the benefits of 4 years with no NCT, probably free servicing for one or two years, brand new tyres, brakes etc. There will be minimal extra cost in depreciation as the main depreciation is in the first few years, and this will be spread over a longer period.

Lantus · 26-05-2021 8:01am

Dacia are simple and reliable but seriously no frills.

There should be some good petrol options or even elec at that price in higher specced 1 to 3 year old models.

You need to have some defined list of requirements to help direct you shortlist.

What features or requirements do you have? Max daily drive or commute? Is Android auto a need for Spotify. Big boot, comfy seats. Cheap to run. What ranks highest?

Edit, You could get a 2018 highline golf for 20k low mileage and warranty.

ineedeuro · 26-05-2021 10:19am

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

Probably a silly question, but just looking for a bit of advice. I need to change my car and have a max budget of 20k (I hate spending money on cars). My preference is a hatchback, just myself and the wife, approx 15k Kms a year. Not interested in bells and whistles, just comfortable, safe and economic to run

Would you go for a new basic new car (such as a Sandero,), with associated warranty, or a 2-3 year old used car with a better specification. I would be financing the car

Any thoughts

What type of driving are you doing?

TP_CM · 26-05-2021 10:22am

I wouldn't personally go for the new car myself. Even a 12 month old car is probably thousands cheaper. I would go for that and a nice holiday to boot.

ineedeuro · 26-05-2021 11:29am

Personally I never go basic. If you are buying something then try get something which at least is a nice place to sit. You won't care when you are sitting in it if the number plate is 181 or 211.
You mentioned not interested in bell & whistles but I would think the following are a basic to start off with
Dual air con
Cruise contril(adaptive if possible)
Parking sensor & camera if possible
Heated seats

You mention economical and safe.
Depending on what driving you are doing, if you have a house with a driveway I would look at maybe the eGolf. It ticks all of the boxes. In terms of cost of running it is minimal because service costs/tax/tolls etc are all cheap. You will pick up in budget as well. Maybe even the leather seats instead of the material ones. Electric is a step too far for some people but just an idea.

Eggs For Dinner · 26-05-2021 1:35pm

Thanks for all the replies.

Important would be reasonable cab space. I'm fairly tall but kids are reared and gone, so rear space not important. Semi rural, 5kms to main county town. Work from home full time, even pre-covid. No need for golf clubs etc in the boot. Must suit my wife to drive. Other car that we're keeping is a Hyundai i30. Travel 120 Kms to Dublin approx once a month. Parking sensors would be nice, decent radio, decent (legal) motorway cruising.

Just to add, I usually hang on to cars until they start having serious issues

ineedeuro · 26-05-2021 2:04pm

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies.

Important would be reasonable cab space. I'm fairly tall but kids are reared and gone, so rear space not important. Semi rural, 5kms to main county town. Work from home full time, even pre-covid. No need for golf clubs etc in the boot. Must suit my wife to drive. Other car that we're keeping is a Hyundai i30. Travel 120 Kms to Dublin approx once a month. Parking sensors would be nice, decent radio, decent (legal) motorway cruising.

Just to add, I usually hang on to cars until they start having serious issues

Not trying to push electric but sounds like it might be the job for you.
https://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/volkswagen/golf/fpa/202104271884994?journey=Search

You will do the trip to Dublin no bother BUT you will need to top up in Dublin or on way back. You could check if Ionity is available along the road. Or in Dublin multiple of the ecars chargers.

It might be a step too far and too much hassle mind you so I would look at a hybrid. The Toyota's or the Lexus.
https://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/toyota/c-hr/fpa/202012096939046?journey=Search

These are a great car, bit of height for getting in/out of. Easy on petrol and its a Toyota so solid as a rock. The back seats are small but comfy for short trips but you will hardly use them. Gets away from a plug in charger as well

Lexus, this might be perfect. The biggest problem with this car is a small boot and limited back seat space which you have no issue with. Just a step up in comfort from the Toyota but again a Toyota underneath so wont break often

https://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/lexus/ct200h/fpa/202105253075595?journey=Search

Eggs For Dinner · 26-05-2021 3:14pm

Thanks for the suggestions, but it brings me back to my quandary. I'd love an e-car, but my budget would only let me get a 4 yr old model and I'm trying to weigh up the new v secondhand argument in my head. I could afford a more expensive car, but can never justify spending much on them.

ineedeuro · 26-05-2021 3:22pm

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

Thanks for the suggestions, but it brings me back to my quandary. I'd love an e-car, but my budget would only let me get a 4 yr old model and I'm trying to weigh up the new v secondhand argument in my head. I could afford a more expensive car, but can never justify spending much on them.

It's electric so service cost are software update, fill the water etc. You can also buy extended warranty very cheap via a few companies. I am buying second hand all the time and I get, used once to twice but is safety net. Very few moving parts so very little to go wrong compared to combustion.

Again not trying to push you toward electric or any car but I personally always go down the years and get the more luxury car. Somewhere nice to sit and drive in. I love driving and want to enjoy it. Some of the "cheaper" brand cars are new but they are an awful place to be. Again just a personal opinion.

roosterman71 · 26-05-2021 3:50pm

Depends on what your use cases are for the car. Tipping around the town, then electric or petrol. Even at 15000km a year it would lean towards those (include PHEV too). Diesel would be out I'd say.

Do you need big boot space. No kids now, but maybe in future. Is that a possibility. Would need to handle a car seat then.

ineedeuro wrote: »

I would think the following are a basic to start off with
Dual air con
Cruise contril(adaptive if possible)
Parking sensor & camera if possible
Heated seats

I'd class all those as extras and in no way basic. Air con maybe for the few hot days. Cruise control only really useful if your chewing motorway miles on a regular basis. Parking sensor - maybe. Heated seats - no way.

ineedeuro · 26-05-2021 3:59pm

roosterman71 wrote: »

Depends on what your use cases are for the car. Tipping around the town, then electric or petrol. Even at 15000km a year it would lean towards those (include PHEV too). Diesel would be out I'd say.

Do you need big boot space. No kids now, but maybe in future. Is that a possibility. Would need to handle a car seat then.

I'd class all those as extras and in no way basic. Air con maybe for the few hot days. Cruise control only really useful if your chewing motorway miles on a regular basis. Parking sensor - maybe. Heated seats - no way.

No heated seats? but what will make your arse warm in the winter months

With electric you have pre-heated car. So you in the middle of the winter you step into a balmy 27 degrees.

Eggs For Dinner · 26-05-2021 4:55pm

At what mileage or age do e-cars need expensive work done to them? You all have me drifting to that option

grogi · 26-05-2021 5:09pm

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

At what mileage or age do e-cars need expensive work done to them? You all have me drifting to that option

Electric drivetrain is basically non-serviceable (no oil, no coolant etc) - and the car will sooner rot than give you issues. The suspension works the same way between electric and non-electric. Brakes wear a little slower. Tyres etc - more less the same.

In general, you can expect more than 10 years of issue free motoring with an EV.

ineedeuro · 26-05-2021 5:17pm

grogi wrote: »

Electric drivetrain is basically non-serviceable (no oil, no coolant etc) - and the car will sooner rot than give you issues. The suspension works the same way between electric and non-electric. Brakes wear a little slower. Tyres etc - more less the same.

In general, you can expect more than 10 years of issue free motoring with an EV.

I had a tyre pressure sensor go in mine!!!

Murph85 · 26-05-2021 6:07pm

You cant keep the car you are in ? You say you hate spending money on cars... so dont...

TP_CM · 26-05-2021 6:09pm

grogi wrote: »

In general, you can expect more than 10 years of issue free motoring with an EV.

What about the battery though? Would you feel confident buying a 5 year old battery? That's the only thing which would stop me.

Eggs For Dinner · 26-05-2021 6:19pm

Murph85 wrote: »

You cant keep the car you are in ? You say you hate spending money on cars... so dont...

I have a 161 Hyundai i30, which is serving me fine. It's a 07 Focus which is starting to throw up engine management system problems that I'm replacing. If I start to not trust a car, I get rid

ineedeuro · 26-05-2021 7:44pm

TP_CM wrote: »

What about the battery though? Would you feel confident buying a 5 year old battery? That's the only thing which would stop me.

Are you talking about the 12v battery or the fuel source battery?

12v in any car will go and if not should be replaced at least every 7 years.
The fuel source battery will last longer than the car itself.

Wildly Boaring · 26-05-2021 7:55pm

https://youtu.be/c4LyNjuSvHE

The new dacias.
Buy and keep for 10 years.

grogi · 26-05-2021 8:15pm

TP_CM wrote: »

What about the battery though? Would you feel confident buying a 5 year old battery? That's the only thing which would stop me.

Yes. Unless unreasonably small (exp. Renault Fluence Że) the battery will last years

roosterman71 · 26-05-2021 8:22pm

ineedeuro wrote: »

12v in any car will go and if not should be replaced at least every 7 years.

Why is that? I'm still on the original battery in my 06 car!

Allinall · 26-05-2021 8:25pm

roosterman71 wrote: »

Why is that? I'm still on the original battery in my 06 car!

Agreed.

Why would you replace a battery that’s working fine?

ineedeuro · 26-05-2021 8:56pm

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

https://youtu.be/c4LyNjuSvHE

The new dacias.
Buy and keep for 10 years.

Why?
I know some people like to have a new number plate but why?

ineedeuro · 26-05-2021 8:58pm

roosterman71 wrote: »

Why is that? I'm still on the original battery in my 06 car!

Based on information I got before from AA, also was mentioned in a local garage to me as well

It’s 100 quid for a battery, after 7 years of driving a car spending 100 quid on a battery doesn’t seem like too much hassle

ineedeuro · 26-05-2021 8:59pm

grogi wrote: »

Yes. Unless unreasonably small (exp. Renault Fluence Że) the battery will last years

The Renault Fluence are still going strong, I seen one recently for sale and still had 80% battery. Was been used as a run around and was sold at more than it was more a few years back....still was doing 90km to a full which suits more than most as a second car

roosterman71 · 26-05-2021 9:49pm

ineedeuro wrote: »

Based on information I got before from AA, also was mentioned in a local garage to me as well

It’s 100 quid for a battery, after 7 years of driving a car spending 100 quid on a battery doesn’t seem like too much hassle

It's not hassle. I don't get the logic. If a battery is working as it should why spend anything replacing it. Plus you have an environmental impact disposing of the old, perfectly good battery. I'm curious now if this is a recommendation or what from the manufacturers. I don't think any battery in anything I have apart from one machine is newer than 7 years

@mods - perhaps this battery talk should be moved to a new thread and let the OP discuss cars here

Wildly Boaring · 26-05-2021 10:43pm

ineedeuro wrote: »

Why?
I know some people like to have a new number plate but why?

I'd not buy one.
But I think the OP would be quite happy in a Dacia.

Then you talk about the new reg.
It'll not be new in 10 years.

If the OP spends 15k on a car and holds it'll cost 1500 a year over 10 years.
That's very small depreciation per year.

Eggs For Dinner · 26-05-2021 11:05pm

One of the things that irks me about buying a 3/4 yr old car is that I usually finance over 4 years, which means I'm still paying back a loan when I have a 7/8 year old car

grogi · 26-05-2021 11:36pm

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

One of the things that irks me about buying a 3/4 yr old car is that I usually finance over 4 years, which means I'm still paying back a loan when I have a 7/8 year old car

Why is that an issue?

Firstly, you can probably pay back the 3yo car in 3 years comparing to 4 years for a new car.

Secondly, wouldn't you buy an insurance against expensive failures? If the car fails catastrophically, it would cover the remainder of finance deal and get you started on a next one.

TP_CM · 27-05-2021 6:03am

ineedeuro wrote: »

Are you talking about the 12v battery or the fuel source battery?

12v in any car will go and if not should be replaced at least every 7 years.
The fuel source battery will last longer than the car itself.

Does the fuel source battery not lose effectiveness after 3-5 years, like for example phone batteries? Just to clarify, I'm genuinely asking and not arguing this point. One of the main reasons I have not got an electric vehicle is because I'm priced out of the new car market and I'm worried about battery performance on the 2nd hand market.

ineedeuro · 27-05-2021 7:14am

TP_CM wrote: »

Does the fuel source battery not lose effectiveness after 3-5 years, like for example phone batteries? Just to clarify, I'm genuinely asking and not arguing this point. One of the main reasons I have not got an electric vehicle is because I'm priced out of the new car market and I'm worried about battery performance on the 2nd hand market.

No it doesn’t, yes they degrade like everything but nothing major. Even the “bad battery” first Leaf are still going strong.

The battery capacity is going to reduce after massive mileage and then you will probably scrap the car, the battery at that stage is worth big money as well as they are been used for solar PV. If you have a 26KWH and lose 60% you still have circa 12kWh which could be repurposed for solar, at the moment it’s 1k per kWh so you would probably get 4-5k for the battery

But as mentioned that is after huge mileage, I seen people test a 80k miles eGolf and say no depreciation from factory

Also you will find different answers as if you live in a hot climate it will be affected different, ireland is the best climate for electric cars. Pissing rain :-(

into_the_wild · 27-05-2021 9:31am

Does a PHEV battery still go strong after 7-8 yrs & 100k mileage? I read somewhere that a PHEV's battery needs to be replaced after that long as it has completely degraded by that time. Is that true?
I'm looking at a few 2nd hand Mitsibushi Outlander PHEVs but not sure about their battery life after all this usage.

ineedeuro · 27-05-2021 9:43am

into_the_wild wrote: »

Does a PHEV battery still go strong after 7-8 yrs & 100k mileage? I read somewhere that a PHEV's battery needs to be replaced after that long as it has completely degraded by that time. Is that true?
I'm looking at a few 2nd hand Mitsibushi Outlander PHEVs but not sure about their battery life after all this usage.

The Outlanders in the UK have warranty for 60k miles so that is why you find loads of them in Ireland with over 60k miles. This is because they are sold cheap in the UK at the auction once the warranty is finished on them.

In terms of the question, the battery will be degraded, how much is depends on multiple factors. You can run a report on the battery, no idea how to but any garage selling should be able to. Best to ask on the electric cars forum and they will tell you. I think some of them have the equipment to do it. Give you peace of mind. I would be 99.9% sure you will have no problem by the way

grogi · 27-05-2021 9:45am

TP_CM wrote: »

Does the fuel source battery not lose effectiveness after 3-5 years, like for example phone batteries? Just to clarify, I'm genuinely asking and not arguing this point. One of the main reasons I have not got an electric vehicle is because I'm priced out of the new car market and I'm worried about battery performance on the 2nd hand market.

LiOn batteries degrade when they are either completely full or completely empty. Traction battery management systems avoid the degradation by exposing only a percentage - like 90% - of the total capacity of the battery to the user. The battery is never charged above 95% and never discharged below 5%. That significantly reduces the degradation.

ineedeuro · 27-05-2021 9:50am

grogi wrote: »

LiOn batteries degrade when they are either completely full or completely empty. Traction battery management systems avoid the degradation by exposing only a percentage - like 90% - of the total capacity of the battery to the user. The battery is never charged above 95% and never discharged below 5%. That significantly reduces the degradation.

I seen before one of the reasons they say VW batteries show little degradation is because they keep a bigger reserve. SO you buy a 26kWh battery but you have a few kWh spare which you dont get access to which means the battery is never full plus when it starts to degrade it comes from the spare. Not sure if true or not

TP_CM · 27-05-2021 10:18am

ineedeuro wrote: »

No it doesn’t, yes they degrade like everything but nothing major. Even the “bad battery” first Leaf are still going strong.

The battery capacity is going to reduce after massive mileage and then you will probably scrap the car, the battery at that stage is worth big money as well as they are been used for solar PV. If you have a 26KWH and lose 60% you still have circa 12kWh which could be repurposed for solar, at the moment it’s 1k per kWh so you would probably get 4-5k for the battery

But as mentioned that is after huge mileage, I seen people test a 80k miles eGolf and say no depreciation from factory

Also you will find different answers as if you live in a hot climate it will be affected different, ireland is the best climate for electric cars. Pissing rain :-(

grogi wrote: »

LiOn batteries degrade when they are either completely full or completely empty. Traction battery management systems avoid the degradation by exposing only a percentage - like 90% - of the total capacity of the battery to the user. The battery is never charged above 95% and never discharged below 5%. That significantly reduces the degradation.

This is very interesting, I did not know this at all. I thought they went like phone batteries after the 3-5 year mark. I drive about 5,000 KM per year and 90% of that time the trip is to the local shops or city centre which is only 10Km away. Other times (yearly family staycations are probably still within range (255Km one way), or I could even get a rental for that trip.

yoshiktk · 27-05-2021 10:34am

ineedeuro wrote: »

I seen before one of the reasons they say VW batteries show little degradation is because they keep a bigger reserve. SO you buy a 26kWh battery but you have a few kWh spare which you dont get access to which means the battery is never full plus when it starts to degrade it comes from the spare. Not sure if true or not

Chevrolet does the same with their batteries, theres spare "%" uses to replace bad cells. Nice solution if You ask me, atleast for a certain period of time you will have the same range.

27-05-2021 10:39am

All depends what you want really.

I bought a 7 year old focus as my first car. First thing I did was get the belt done and serviced. 6 months later on a Sunday evening in rural Northern Ireland the engine stopped and there was a lot of clattering. Absolute ****in nightmare.

So my view has been coloured by my experience. :pac: I should be picking up a new Sandero soon. It's super cheap, has an armrest and A/C, pretty much all I care about. :pac: Also has Bluetooth and Cruise Control which are nice-to-haves for me.
It's super-cheap on PCP and the GFMV is lower than what it's likely to be worth so in 3 years I should be able to hand it back and get a new one with no deposit and a similar monthly payment.
I also tried the Sandero Stepway and I have to say that other than the orange stitching it's a pretty nice place to be. The extra bit of space is nice and it doesn't feel like it's a mile off the road.

They run on LPG as well and are on fairly low tax so running costs should be pretty low.

On the other hand my dad got a new Nissan 2 years ago and it's developed a noise. Had it in for service the other day and they reckon gearbox (I reckon it's outside the gearbox :P ) and it's booked in for a full inspection next week. Anything other than a proper replacement rather than bull**** patching up a 2 year old car under warranty would be pretty bad form IMO.

ineedeuro · 27-05-2021 10:41am

TP_CM wrote: »

This is very interesting, I did not know this at all. I thought they went like phone batteries after the 3-5 year mark. I drive about 5,000 KM per year and 90% of that time the trip is to the local shops or city centre which is only 10Km away. Other times (yearly family staycations are probably still within range (255Km one way), or I could even get a rental for that trip.

With the likes of Ionity installation now on major routes the days of depending on the Irish government charging system are long gone. Ionity are in the game to make money so they have a proper setup

I was N11 the other day and pulled in to stuff my face at McDonalds. Three Audi e-Tron lined up plugged into the Ionity chargers and still 5-6 spare.

Eggs For Dinner · 27-05-2021 1:29pm

Thanks for all the advice everyone. Decision made. My circumstances should improve significantly within the next 2 years, so I'll be going for a new basic car now and will then trade my 161 for an electric hatchback, with the basic one reverting to being the 2nd car in the family, if that makes sense.

Appreciate all the contributions

New v secondhand

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