Irish Property Market chat II - read mod note post #1 before posting

SmokyMo · 18-05-2021 10:15AM

Himnydownunder wrote: »

Thanks. Yeah it’s like there is some rationality in the U.K. People have some chance to make a go of life, if they are willing to live outside of London. I couldn’t believe it when I saw you could buy in Liverpool for £50k. It’s like we have a very insular view of property and property prices in Ireland. To think that it is “normal” to pay 500k for any half decent property in Dublin is lunacy.

From what I understand, even properties up North are quite cheaper and better quality?

Villa05 · 18-05-2021 10:22AM

MacronvFrugals wrote:

The optics of this are shocking for the government, this keeps housing front and center.

A couple of this time it's different lately

The epicentre of the last crash were ninja (no income, no jobs, or assets) loans in the US for housing. These loans were packaged and sold to investment firms.

Yet here we have the state leasing some of the most expensive properties in the state to house similar folk and the state is one of the most indebted in the world.

In the last crash one of our saving graces was that risk was spread out over multiple individual buyers, so naturally many fought there way out

This time risk is concentrated on the state which has decades of financial incompetence and will need to be bailed out by the taxpayer yet again

MacronvFrugals · 18-05-2021 10:25AM

Listening to Fionnán Sheahan's podcast in the indo this morning they reckon its now time for the state to step in and start building

https://www.independent.ie/podcasts/infocus-childhoods-have-been-lost-and-a-generation-locked-out-of-home-ownership-40438647.html

timmyntc · 18-05-2021 10:29AM

MacronvFrugals wrote: »

Listening to Fionnán Sheahan's podcast in the indo this morning they reckon its now time for the state to step in and start building

https://www.independent.ie/podcasts/infocus-childhoods-have-been-lost-and-a-generation-locked-out-of-home-ownership-40438647.html

The time to start building was about 8 years ago!

Seriously though, the one issue a lot of people don't seem to realise is that we cannot borrow that capital required for house building on a large scale. EU fiscal rules won't allow it. (Unless we borrow it all right now while said rules are temporarily suspended)

yagan · 18-05-2021 10:40AM

Brantley Ambitious Sunburn wrote: »

I find it strange the government doesn't see apartments as "homes". Do they think single people want protection to by 3bed semis in the suburbs but not apartments that might better suit their needs ?

It's not that strange really when detached, semi and terrace housing makes up 96% of our stock according to this wiki.

Apartments are still the exception to the norm nationally although I'd be interested to see the ratio of houses to apartments within the M50.

jill_valentine · 18-05-2021 10:51AM

Brantley Ambitious Sunburn wrote: »

I find it strange the government doesn't see apartments as "homes". Do they think single people want protection to by 3bed semis in the suburbs but not apartments that might better suit their needs ?

We're not supposed to live in apartments, apparently, they're for storing money in.

Single people don't exist, you must mean workers. And shur we have to head into work, we don't need anywhere to live, that's for real people, they stopped making them about 45 years ago.

yagan · 18-05-2021 10:52AM

SmokyMo wrote: »

From what I understand, even properties up North are quite cheaper and better quality?

We lived in North England for a while and to be honest while rent was very cheap to here most of the stock was extremely badly insulated and just generally of a different era. This map illustrates the point very well.

I developed an aversion to red brick victoriana after that, although they tended to be more sound than the houses built in the 60s and 70s.

18-05-2021 11:06AM

Brantley Ambitious Sunburn wrote: »

I find it strange the government doesn't see apartments as "homes". Do they think single people want protection to by 3bed semis in the suburbs but not apartments that might better suit their needs ?

From commentary I've seen over a period of time this seems to be an issue across the entire breadth of Irish society, be it people, Govt or opposition.

Every single development that isn't 3-4 bed semi-ds gets the same "but but but this is no good for young families" commentary as if they are the only people that need to be housed.

Villa05 · 18-05-2021 12:01PM

Brantley Ambitious Sunburn wrote:

I find it strange the government doesn't see apartments as "homes". Do they think single people want protection to by 3bed semis in the suburbs but not apartments that might better suit their needs ?

The lobbyists have the government's ear and suddenly apartments are apparently more expensive than houses, despite it being the opposite for decades. Nobody appears to be questioning the lobbyists gospel

Now is this because we need more apartments, smaller units therefore the industry decides let's up the price because this is where the money is with investment funds and a foolish government hovering up supply

Or is it because the industry recognises schmittels argument that we have an over supply of houses but many are under utilised
If the industry ups the price of apartments above the price of houses they kill the potential downsizer market.
This removes the threat of efficient use of property to solve the housing crisis. This will maintain the industry's stranglehold on supply and price

Nice cosy cartel

Mad_maxx · 18-05-2021 12:07PM

Himnydownunder wrote: »

Is it just me or does the U.K. give more options to buyers of houses? Quite major cities like Manchester and Liverpool offer quite good value for money. You would get a decent place in Liverpool for 100k or less. Lesser cities like Peterborough and the like offer good bang for your buck. There are viable affordable options when it comes to cities across the water, once you leave London. In Ireland when you go outside Dublin, cities like Cork, Limerick and Galway are all still quite expensive.

houses in England are more expensive than in Ireland even taking London out of the equation as far as i can see ?

Scotland and Wales as well as part of the North of England and midlands are cheaper

the South east of England and South West are more expensive than Ireland , rural parts of the South East and South West are considerably more expensive in England than in rural Ireland , granted those rural areas have much more to offer than here

point being , Ireland is not cheap but its incorrect to think its way out of line with other parts of Europe

L1011 · 18-05-2021 12:46PM

MacronvFrugals wrote: »

Listening to Fionnán Sheahan's podcast in the indo this morning they reckon its now time for the state to step in and start building

https://www.independent.ie/podcasts/infocus-childhoods-have-been-lost-and-a-generation-locked-out-of-home-ownership-40438647.html

The time for the state to start building was, well, for them not to stop in late 1990s after FF came back to power.

cnocbui · 18-05-2021 12:57PM

Villa05 wrote: »

The lobbyists have the government's ear and suddenly apartments are apparently more expensive than houses, despite it being the opposite for decades. Nobody appears to be questioning the lobbyists gospel

Now is this because we need more apartments, smaller units therefore the industry decides let's up the price because this is where the money is with investment funds and a foolish government hovering up supply

Or is it because the industry recognises schmittels argument that we have an over supply of houses but many are under utilised
If the industry ups the price of apartments above the price of houses they kill the potential downsizer market.
This removes the threat of efficient use of property to solve the housing crisis. This will maintain the industry's stranglehold on supply and price

Nice cosy cartel

Apartments cost more to build:

Terraced Houses1,050 - 1,250 per m2
Semi Detached Houses1,100 - 1,350 per m2
Apartments (Build to Sell) 1,800 - 2,500 per m2
Apartments (Build to Rent)2,000 - 2,700 per m2

http://buildcost.ie/Buildcost-Construction-Cost-Guide-1st-Half-2019.pdf

DataDude · 18-05-2021 01:06PM

Could anyone get on board with this house?

https://www.daft.ie/for-sale/semi-detached-house-4-knockrabo-park-mount-anville-road-goatstown-dublin-14/3224589

Nice interior and decent location I guess, but Knocrabo is an incredibly soulless place and is about to get a whole lot busier when all the new apartments go in. If the first block is anything to go by (it's almost completely empty), the new phases are highly likely to end up as 25 year lease jobs. Find it mind boggling that a Semi-D with a putting green for a garden in that estate could fetch €1.4m+, which it probably will.
Would love to chat to whoever buys it to work out their thought process!

Himnydownunder · 18-05-2021 01:11PM

Mad_maxx wrote: »

houses in England are more expensive than in Ireland even taking London out of the equation as far as i can see ?

Scotland and Wales as well as part of the North of England and midlands are cheaper

the South east of England and South West are more expensive than Ireland , rural parts of the South East and South West are considerably more expensive in England than in rural Ireland , granted those rural areas have much more to offer than here

point being , Ireland is not cheap but its incorrect to think its way out of line with other parts of Europe

Point taken. But what I’m getting at is that in the U.K. you can live in a well serviced city outside of the capital quite cheaply. In Ireland every city is expensive including Kilkenny, I know I’ll open a can of worms by calling Kilkenny a city.

Browney7 · 18-05-2021 01:17PM

DataDude wrote: »

Could anyone get on board with this house?

https://www.daft.ie/for-sale/semi-detached-house-4-knockrabo-park-mount-anville-road-goatstown-dublin-14/3224589

Nice interior and decent location I guess, but Knocrabo is an incredibly soulless place and is about to get a whole lot busier when all the new apartments go in. If the first block is anything to go by (it's almost completely empty), the new phases are highly likely to end up as 25 year lease jobs. Find it mind boggling that a Semi-D with a putting green for a garden in that estate could fetch €1.4m+, which it probably will.
Would love to chat to whoever buys it to work out their thought process!

Seems very expensive - you wouldn't want to be using public transport to get to the city.

Would agree with your conclusions - feels like a 1.1m house at most. What did they go for new?

Mad_maxx · 18-05-2021 01:17PM

Himnydownunder wrote: »

Point taken. But what I’m getting at is that in the U.K. you can live in a well serviced city outside of the capital quite cheaply. In Ireland every city is expensive including Kilkenny, I know I’ll open a can of worms by calling Kilkenny a city.

Kilkenny is a great spot

it depends what you mean by " expensive "

I think Limerick is still relatively good value , certainly far better than Galway , Waterford is not that expensive either and its big enough to provide services and entertainment to people , Limerick would have more job opportunities right now though

MacronvFrugals · 18-05-2021 01:20PM

DataDude wrote: »

Could anyone get on board with this house?

https://www.daft.ie/for-sale/semi-detached-house-4-knockrabo-park-mount-anville-road-goatstown-dublin-14/3224589

Nice interior and decent location I guess, but Knocrabo is an incredibly soulless place and is about to get a whole lot busier when all the new apartments go in. If the first block is anything to go by (it's almost completely empty), the new phases are highly likely to end up as 25 year lease jobs. Find it mind boggling that a Semi-D with a putting green for a garden in that estate could fetch €1.4m+, which it probably will.
Would love to chat to whoever buys it to work out their thought process!

The back garden is heartbreaking for that money!

awec · 18-05-2021 01:25PM

DataDude wrote: »

Could anyone get on board with this house?

https://www.daft.ie/for-sale/semi-detached-house-4-knockrabo-park-mount-anville-road-goatstown-dublin-14/3224589

Nice interior and decent location I guess, but Knocrabo is an incredibly soulless place and is about to get a whole lot busier when all the new apartments go in. If the first block is anything to go by (it's almost completely empty), the new phases are highly likely to end up as 25 year lease jobs. Find it mind boggling that a Semi-D with a putting green for a garden in that estate could fetch €1.4m+, which it probably will.
Would love to chat to whoever buys it to work out their thought process!

A bedroom and a shower room right beside the front door, weird layout.

Kitchen is IMO too small. It's like the kitchen you'd find in an apartment with an island added in.

DataDude · 18-05-2021 01:25PM

Browney7 wrote: »

Seems very expensive - you wouldn't want to be using public transport to get to the city.

Would agree with your conclusions - feels like a 1.1m house at most. What did they go for new?

Yeah I could understand it (but still wouldn't buy it) at the €1.0m - €1.1m range but at €1.4 it's completely bonkers.

They paid €1.2m for it in mid 2018 so I guess after putting in floors, "landscaping" etc. it probably stands them €1.3m or so.

Sort of house that looked like it would get crucified in 2019/2020 - doubt they'd have gotten €1.1 for it last year. Taking their opportunity to bail out with the COVID price bump and make a small profit.

Marius34 · 18-05-2021 01:25PM

yagan wrote: »

I'm not going to argue with anyone about the nature of asset bubbles, they simply happen. Some people think Bitcoin is an asset!

We're seeing an asset inflation in our property market again, although the players and financial inputs are different, and thus how it unwinds will be different too.

When I warned family and friends against buying in 2006 I was told inflation would eat away the debt. And now the same argument is being trotted out again on this thread.

Hands off regulation seems like a rerun of the noughties up to the point when the Maynooth purchase stoked an existential crisis amongst the comfortable majority who now feared a cookoo fund would buy the house next door and move in the neighbours from hell.

Ok, I'm not arguing it. I simply arguing your initial comment. Someone who tried to see same current property market fundamentals with Credit crisis times, got totally wrong.

Villa05 · 18-05-2021 01:29PM

cnocbui wrote:

Terraced Houses1,050 - 1,250 per m2 Semi Detached Houses1,100 - 1,350 per m2 Apartments (Build to Sell) 1,800 - 2,500 per m2 Apartments (Build to Rent)2,000 - 2,700 per m2[
Apartments cost more to build:

Thanks for the lobbyists gospel
Strange how they have increased as the required standards have reduced over the last 8 years

Ozark707 · 18-05-2021 01:43PM

DataDude wrote: »

Yeah I could understand it (but still wouldn't buy it) at the €1.0m - €1.1m range but at €1.4 it's completely bonkers.

They paid €1.2m for it in mid 2018 so I guess after putting in floors, "landscaping" etc. it probably stands them €1.3m or so.

Sort of house that looked like it would get crucified in 2019/2020 - doubt they'd have gotten €1.1 for it last year. Taking their opportunity to bail out with the COVID price bump and make a small profit.

The apartments up there have been listed by Savills for a long time and it does not seem like they are able to move them. As has being pointed out on numerous occasions you would worry who would end up in them. Hopefully if you are forking out 1.4m you might take the time to look into this a bit.

Cal4567 · 18-05-2021 02:24PM

I love the way this thread dances from critical appraisal of our housing predicament, then morphs into property supplement mode whenever someone puts up the latest (not very good value) million € pile, normally in the swankier parts of town, and then careers back to moaning about investment funds. It is as dysfunctional as the present government's housing policy.

Rather sweet, actually.

mcsean2163 · 18-05-2021 03:47PM

jill_valentine wrote: »

We're not supposed to live in apartments, apparently, they're for storing money in.

Single people don't exist, you must mean workers. And shur we have to head into work, we don't need anywhere to live, that's for real people, they stopped making them about 45 years ago.

I'm 44. So close, I could've been somebody, I could've been real but now I'm just a nonexistent person in the void imagining a reality that isn't.

Cyrus · 18-05-2021 03:54PM

Cal4567 wrote: »

I love the way this thread dances from critical appraisal of our housing predicament, then morphs into property supplement mode whenever someone puts up the latest (not very good value) million € pile, normally in the swankier parts of town, and then careers back to moaning about investment funds. It is as dysfunctional as the present government's housing policy.

Rather sweet, actually.

some of us come here to discuss properties in the main, i know thats my favourite type of post.

Cyrus · 18-05-2021 03:55PM

DataDude wrote: »

Yeah I could understand it (but still wouldn't buy it) at the €1.0m - €1.1m range but at €1.4 it's completely bonkers.

They paid €1.2m for it in mid 2018 so I guess after putting in floors, "landscaping" etc. it probably stands them €1.3m or so.

Sort of house that looked like it would get crucified in 2019/2020 - doubt they'd have gotten €1.1 for it last year. Taking their opportunity to bail out with the COVID price bump and make a small profit.

for an estate that size, with that size of a garden and that layout i cant see value in it. The location isnt special enough either. But someone will buy it at asking id wager.

Browney7 · 18-05-2021 04:25PM

Cyrus wrote: »

for an estate that size, with that size of a garden and that layout i cant see value in it. The location isnt special enough either. But someone will buy it at asking id wager.

Suppose "value" is very subjective. The following is a house that although looks nice, is in my opinion, terrible value compared to the Mt Anville property linked earlier https://www.daft.ie/for-sale/terraced-house-67-richmond-road-drumcondra-dublin-3/3150250. Whilst it has "character" being a red brick, it is less than half the size, terraced, on a busy road (which would be a long way from the "nicer roads" in Drumcondra).

Some very aspirational pricing on show at present. Not that I'd be in a position to buy either!

jill_valentine · 18-05-2021 04:27PM

My company has a group scheme similar to ****e Groupon or something. Just got a mail offering me a month "free" in one of Kennedy Wilson's blocks if I take a lease before July. List includes Capital Dock and Alto Vetro (the skinny empty looking one you can see from Grand Canal), though not Clancy Quay.

The "free" month, we all know about, but I've never seen anything like this on this newsletter thing, which is usually stuff like gym gear or Halfords discounts.

Wonder if they're a bit squirmy about the recent attention on their low occupancy.

Cyrus · 18-05-2021 04:27PM

Browney7 wrote: »

Suppose "value" is very subjective. The following is a house that although looks nice, is in my opinion, terrible value compared to the Mt Anville property linked earlier https://www.daft.ie/for-sale/terraced-house-67-richmond-road-drumcondra-dublin-3/3150250. Whilst it has "character" being a red brick, it is less than half the size, terraced, on a busy road (which would be a long way from the "nicer roads" in Drumcondra).

Some very aspirational pricing on show at present. Not that I'd be in a position to buy either!

yes id agree similar price on a per sq foor basis but there is a much greater population of buyers at 650k v 1.4m to counter that.

Browney7 · 18-05-2021 04:30PM

Cyrus wrote: »

yes id agree similar price on a per sq foor basis but there is a much greater population of buyers at 650k v 1.4m to counter that.

Agree totally - but the better buy in my opinion is the Mt Anville property in that case but you don't have unlimited funds being the problem!

Irish Property Market chat II - *read mod note post #1 before posting*

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Irish Property Market chat II - read mod note post #1 before posting