Second Captains Part II

Still Ill · 12-05-2021 07:47PM

I really don't understand why anyone is saying the location is bad. If the space is there and currently unused, why is a five minute walk from O'Connell Street less palatable than somewhere like where the Aquatic Centre is? Seems perfect for tourists really. Could see it as a great activity for stag parties etc.
Also, kayaking or white water rafting may not currently be a popular hobby for the locals, but that's mainly because there's nowhere to do it! Could see it being hugely beneficial to the youths of the locality, particularly if it was provided at the price of the cost of running. I think the guest today did a particularly poor job of highlighting that though.
I know it sounds like a pretty out there idea, but if it ended up being self sufficient as a business I'd have no problem at all with it.

yermandan · 12-05-2021 08:25PM

It's incredible how someone can get to the top of an organisation like DCC with such poor communication skills

thenightman · 12-05-2021 09:34PM

Keegan certainly sounds like the kind of bumbling idiot who you would expect ends up being trusted with 25+ million of public funds to blow on a project nobody wants (or in the case of the disadvantaged local youths, have even been asked if they'd be interested in. Astonishing in itself he openly admits that)

His justifications are:

For swift water rescue training (his point that only 1 such facility exists in the world is incredible, has he asked why only 1 exists?)
Attract more tourists (have to fill all those boutique hotels his council granted pp for instead of housing for locals I suppose)
and incredibly niche sports training.

25 million (will be more & we all know it) on that thin premise? from a man paid 6 figures and answerable to no rate paying voter. What a country. We could do incredibly useful things with that sort of money like improved cycle facilities/lanes, more community gyms or that type of craic.

Did you smash it · 12-05-2021 09:53PM

thenightman wrote: »

Keegan certainly sounds like the kind of bumbling idiot who you would expect ends up being trusted with 25+ million of public funds to blow on a project nobody wants (or in the case of the disadvantaged local youths, have even been asked if they'd be interested in. Astonishing in itself he openly admits that)

His justifications are:

For swift water rescue training (his point that only 1 such facility exists in the world is incredible, has he asked why only 1 exists?)
Attract more tourists (have to fill all those boutique hotels his council granted pp for instead of housing for locals I suppose)
and incredibly niche sports training.

25 million (will be more & we all know it) on that thin premise? from a man paid 6 figures and answerable to no rate paying voter. What a country. We could do incredibly useful things with that sort of money like improved cycle facilities/lanes, more community gyms or that type of craic.

It’s not that niche if Glasgow, Cardiff and London all have one?

thenightman · 12-05-2021 09:58PM

Did you smash it wrote: »

It’s not that niche if Glasgow, Cardiff and London all have one?

They don't have ones that cost 25 million of public money and are basically glorified training centres for 1000 odd firefighters (and a few drainage staff shur, y'know?) that no other country deems necessary. Oh and a fancy new (architecturally significant) office for the lads too of course, was forgetting about that.

Did you smash it · 12-05-2021 10:08PM

thenightman wrote: »

They don't have ones that cost 25 million of public money and are basically glorified training centres for 1000 odd firefighters (and a few drainage staff shur, y'know?) that no other country deems necessary.

The main use would not be for training firemen. It would be a recreation attraction.

It probably would be a profitable enterprise.

My main issue with the guy was him seemingly trying to portray the much needed Dalymount upgrade as something slightly frivolous compared to this Kayaking centre.

yohan the great · 12-05-2021 10:26PM

dulpit wrote: »

Lads I can't figure out why there's uproar over a white water rafting facility in Dublin City centre? I mean there's clearly a massive public need for one, with people crying out for it. And it's not like there's a housing crisis or anything that the council could better spend its money on.

Money can't be spent on two different things at the same time of course

Dante · 12-05-2021 10:45PM

If it cost a couple of million then maybe I could see some justification. But €25 million? Serious Bertie Bowl vibes off it.

Ivefoundgod · 12-05-2021 10:54PM

Genuinely cannot get over that interview. Not far off Eoghan Harris appearance on drive time last week in terms of a car crash. Keegan seemed completely unprepared for any sort of questioning and had no answer or no knowledge on something I'd have assumed he should have been familiar with. Not knowing about the Coolock pools opening hours and trying to compare this to Dalymount Park, honestly it was baffling.

When this idea was initially made public I couldn't actually believe that it had got this far without someone saying "lads, seriously?" but listening to this interview its not that surprising considering the chief executive has little or no grasp of either the project, the community its going into or the wider picture.

Some basic facts and figures were beyond him, not knowing how much the cost was, not knowing if it included VAT and brushing it off as "I thought it 25m was inc. VAT". Honestly, it was a staggeringly inept performance. It says a lot though that neither him or his advisors did any bit of research or preparation before agreeing to this interview as he clearly wasn't prepared for the line of questioning.

Beau · 12-05-2021 10:57PM

25 million, 8 of which is publicly funded.

I didn't get why there was such a negative reaction to the project either to be honest. The city is badly in need of things to do. However the interviewee didn't come across very well or sell it.

On the other hand, you could sense Eoin and Ken were out for blood from the get go and weren't open to hearing the arguments for it.

deisedude · 12-05-2021 11:11PM

Keegan asserted on a few occasions that the public are against it because we can't even fathom or conceive of it which I thought was the height of arrogance. A quick look on Google and YouTube and we can see other examples.

I worked for a narcissistic manager before who was always looking for something to define his legacy and this smacked to me of a vanity project for Keegan to have something on his obituary. "The man who brought white water rafting to Ireland"

Ivefoundgod · 12-05-2021 11:16PM

Beau wrote: »

25 million, 8 of which is publicly funded.

I didn't get why there was such a negative reaction to the project either to be honest. The city is badly in need of things to do. However the interviewee didn't come across very well or sell it.

I would imagine the public anger was due to the lack of consultation and the fact that there was no supporting research to suggest this project was something the community either wanted or needed. Based on Keegans interview they appear to have said "well there's one in Cardiff so it must be great" rather than actually engaging the community or wider Dublin area to get a sense of the desire for such a project.

On the other hand, you could sense Eoin and Ken were out for blood from the get go and weren't open to hearing the arguments for it.

I don't recall anyone from DCC coming out publicly before to defend the project and I'd assume Claire Byrne or similar would have only loved to get this eejit on national radio to eviscerate him so I don't think Ken or Eoin can be blamed for taking him to task. Keegan had no argument in favour of it, that much was clear. I'd love to have heard someone who could at least defend the project just to see if there was some merit in it that I have missed but he wasn't the man for the job anyway.

EltonJohn69 · 12-05-2021 11:54PM

It would be a major upgrade on the Viking splash tour in fairness

Pete Moss · 13-05-2021 12:12AM

Beau wrote: »

On the other hand, you could sense Eoin and Ken were out for blood from the get go and weren't open to hearing the arguments for it.

I disagree. To say they were "out for blood" is a bit much, it was hardly like Vincent Browne was going through him for a shortcut.

They researched the topic and asked relevant questions, even at that there was nothing too probing and nothing that hadn't been previously questioned about the project. Keegan continuously talked about it benefitting the local community and Eoin was right to ask what he was basing that on. Don't forget, DCC have already spent €1.3m on fees for this project so far. For that money, I would expect him to have access to some information collected from the local community or councillors which backed-up his claims. Surely there has been some consultation with them?

The perception and attitude towards this project has been negative from the start, even more so as a result of the pandemic. It was an opportunity to be prepared for this line of questioning and come across confident and knowledgeable on a project which will cost €25m+. He made an arse of it, scrambling through papers and not knowing basic details, spouting nonsense about Dalymount Park and the money that will cost - without mentioning any money that might come the way of DCC from Tolka Park being sold.

It was less a case of they were out for blood and more of a case that Keegan spontaneously combusted in front of them, leaving them dripping in it.

PhilipsR · 13-05-2021 09:29AM

bamayang wrote: »

Keegan isn’t a good speaker and his ummhs and ahhs at the start of each question didn’t help him. But I didn’t really think of that as car crash stuff.

He knew he was coming on to speak about this project specifically and he didn't even know of the projected cost or of how much they plan on charging for it! It was an absolute car crash and I don't hold any respect for the DCC if someone like this guys is at the top. It was horrendously unprofessional.

Lucas Hood · 13-05-2021 10:10AM

"Right" "You know"

Man kept saying these all the time.

deisedude · 13-05-2021 10:15AM

Lucas Hood wrote: »

"Right" "You know"

Man kept saying these all the time.

Never a good sign of a speaker. Crutch words you revert to when you are well and truly rattled

dulpit · 13-05-2021 10:35AM

I listened to this a short while ago. What I got from it was that Dublin needs it because Cardiff has one? It also sounds like it's a personal opinion that it will work out for Dublin, no public consultation looks to have happened.

Hotblack Desiato · 13-05-2021 11:13AM

Had dealings with Keegan years ago, let's just say I don't have a very high opinion of the man but he's been consistent in always being able to fail upwards. You know the type.

Dick Turnip · 13-05-2021 12:01PM

There may be truth to Keegan's point, that a lido would require a big investment also, but not have the same year round usage as kayaking, and also not generate the same € either, but christ did he not speak well.

I kinda like the idea of a kayak centre there to be honest, it would certainly be something different. However, it is so easy to tear it and Keegan apart on it. You come with a proposal like that, at least know your sh1t about it. He was brutal.

Something like that should be put at Abbotstown on a green field site when everything's weighed up.

Still, would love to know what people think should go in George's Dock. It would be nice if they even just filled it with water - that would be a start!

Lucas Hood · 13-05-2021 12:07PM

He never gave any reason why it would work here given it worked in Cardiff.
Doesn't seem to have been any consultation with locals it they're interested in it.

humberklog · 13-05-2021 12:23PM

I enjoyed yesterday's chat, something different.

I don't think the lads were waiting to get the boot in. They spelt it out from the start- if you're gonna go big you'd better be able to defend that choice.

And Keegan failed. Badly.

But I think it's a great idea! The lads were off the mark when they were dismissive of people taking up kayaking around the Liffey. It's already being done and to great success.

I work with tourists and so many of them have done the Liffey Kayaking as has loads of locals and it has been great for school tours too. They even have acoustic concerts under the bridge on occasion. Ok, that's leisurely kayaking and not rapids but it's still in a boat with a paddle. You have to start somewhere.

With accessible and affordable sports shops now stocking kayaks and SUP's off the shelf (I bought one myself recently) there has been a huge up take in interest in water activities across the city. You can get this stuff for the price of a high end phone.
The idea put forward that it's for rich people is simply not the case. It certainly was, even if that was just in perception but there's all sorts getting into it now and it's a really healthy and fun activity.

Those pro it and are invested in delivering it need to go much more "Balls Out" with their proposal. And stuff Keegan in a drawer somewhere.

sheroman01 · 13-05-2021 12:35PM

Having the rafting in the city centre is just ludicrous and a huge slap in the face for people who are crying out more housing in the city. Is the available space for it not gong to be tiny also? If you truly want white water rafting, why not move it somewhere else and make the most of it.

It's just so incredibly niche. Will locals really go? If they do, it'll likely only be a once-off. It's not a long term investment for locals. Tourists may like it, but it only continues our obsession with tourism. It's getting out of hand, without any consideration for locals. Pubs, clubs, sport centers, etc, all being abandoned or knocked down in favour of hotels and tourists. Tourists already love Ireland, they will continue to flock here. There are ways to improve and sustain areas for tourism and improve the standard of life for locals.

What was baffling about Keegan was how blasé he was. He was there to defend it but was all like "sure look it's up for tender but hopefully we get it". It's almost as if he's starting to realise maybe it's not the best thing that Dublin City needs.

lawred2 · 13-05-2021 01:06PM

So while there's a shortage of houses the state can't spend money on anything else?

Not saying I think this particularly is a good use of money but I don't quite see why a housing shortage is repeatedly referenced.

Could never sort a housing shortage.. other stuff still has to get done

Dick Turnip · 13-05-2021 01:33PM

sheroman01 wrote: »

Having the rafting in the city centre is just ludicrous and a huge slap in the face for people who are crying out more housing in the city. Is the available space for it not gong to be tiny also? If you truly want white water rafting, why not move it somewhere else and make the most of it.

Ah boll1x to this excuse - what, DCC should infill the dock and build social housing instead?

Much like issues with the HSE, the housing & homeless issue is not caused by a lack of money alone. Far from it.

Every time any money is spent on ANYTHING in this country, and particularly Dublin, the same old shyte about housing & homelessness are brought up.

Obviously housing & homelessness are major issues that should be #1 priority for both DCC and the govt. but it is possible to spend money on a number of things without devaluing the importance of the other.

edit - and now I see that today's episode is about housing crisis :pac:

SheepsClothing · 13-05-2021 02:18PM

I don't really understand Eoin's point about local kids not being asked if they were interested in going white water rafting. Of course they want to go white water rafting, they're kids. Or does he think kids from Sheriff Street are not high minded enough to enjoy a day out rafting?

Dante · 13-05-2021 03:38PM

lawred2 wrote: »

So while there's a shortage of houses the state can't spend money on anything else?

Not saying I think this particularly is a good use of money but I don't quite see why a housing shortage is repeatedly referenced.

I believe thats called the fallacy of relative privation.

riewomann · 13-05-2021 04:22PM

SheepsClothing wrote: »

I don't really understand Eoin's point about local kids not being asked if they were interested in going white water rafting. Of course they want to go white water rafting, they're kids. Or does he think kids from Sheriff Street are not high minded enough to enjoy a day out rafting?

If you were to believe the right-on crew, the locals would only be interested in a North Face Outlet Store.

There has been a pile on to mock this proposal from the outset, I haven't heard much in the way of proposals from those who are so horrified at the lack of engagement with the locals.

Maybe a Leinster Rugby Museum would be appropriate? I can just see it now, Shane Horgan and BOD cutting the red ribbon, surrounded by the locals they so proudly represent.

P.S. Engagement, community, stakeholders, line of scrimmage.

thenightman · 13-05-2021 07:11PM

For the cheerleader of the project who wants 8mil+ of public funding (plus the million already spent on planning/consultations) to cheerfully and openly admit they haven't bothered their arse even asking the local youth (who he himself brought up as factor for building it!) is incredible and indefensible. If I said similar about a inconsequential proposal at a meeting in my boring job I'd be laughed out of it, but this clown can say it in an interview and people defend it?

Raoul Duke · 13-05-2021 07:39PM

Just listened to it and I don't think that it was close to the car crash that the comments here led me to believe.

Sure, he didn't have an instant recall of all the facts and figures. So what. It doesn't change his argument for the development. I thought the lads started to go after him, but Eoin pulled back well from going too far down that route.

I just don't understand this infatuation with what the "locals" think about it. It's in the city centre - it's for everyone. Honestly, who cares if the local youth come or not. If they are given discounts, then you can't do more than that.

If you are against the idea, it's enough to say that you don't think it's a good idea. You don't need to bring in the pandemic, housing crisis, local support etc. If you can come up with a better plan for the area at the same time, please let us know.

Second Captains Part II

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