Random Fitness Questions

Cole · 29-04-2021 08:38AM

A question for any powerlifters who also run. How do you plan your lifting (squats/DLs) around your running or vice-versa?

I've got back into (early morning) running recently (5km) after a few years and am finding my lower back taking a bit of a strain from it...not pain or injury just kind of tired I guess. On the days that I'm squatting or deadlifting (no running on the day or next day) I'm always a bit concerned whether my lower back is recovered enough from the running.

I don't remember it being so much of an issue in the past, but then again being in my late 40s probably plays its part.

Patsy167 · 29-04-2021 09:58AM

Cole wrote: »

A question for any powerlifters who also run. How do you plan your lifting (squats/DLs) around your running or vice-versa?

I've got back into (early morning) running recently (5km) after a few years and am finding my lower back taking a bit of a strain from it...not pain or injury just kind of tired I guess. On the days that I'm squatting or deadlifting (no running on the day or next day) I'm always a bit concerned whether my lower back is recovered enough from the running.

I don't remember it being so much of an issue in the past, but then again being in my late 40s probably plays its part.

Some useful tips here that might be helpful - https://powerliftingtechnique.com/powerlifting-and-running/

Keep Runs And Training Sessions On Separate Days
Avoid Endurance Runs Within 24 Hours Of A Squat Workout
Aim For 6 Hours Between Sessions If You Must Run and Train The Same Day
Always Strength Train First If You Must Train And Run The Same Day
Have At Least 1 Full Rest Day A Week
Train For Running With Moderate-Intensity Workouts When Possible
Eat To Accommodate Increased Activity
Recognize Signs Of Overtraining

silverharp · 29-04-2021 10:06AM

Cole wrote: »

A question for any powerlifters who also run. How do you plan your lifting (squats/DLs) around your running or vice-versa?

I've got back into (early morning) running recently (5km) after a few years and am finding my lower back taking a bit of a strain from it...not pain or injury just kind of tired I guess. On the days that I'm squatting or deadlifting (no running on the day or next day) I'm always a bit concerned whether my lower back is recovered enough from the running.

I don't remember it being so much of an issue in the past, but then again being in my late 40s probably plays its part.

im doing something similar, I jog ~5k twice a week , ideally after doing squats/DL. I find if I do the running first then I find an excuse not to do the other. I am hoping that after a while the 5K will just become routine so will be less stress on the body

Im finding I need to be more careful now, so making mobility a priority, I'd use the logic that everything is connected so a weakness in one place could cause an issue somewhere else, so come up with a suite of mobility oriented exercises to build in during the week. I have started doing exercises like Jefferson Curls, Asian squats and others. When the gyms reopen Ill be using the hip thrust machine which helped with running. Something Im going to start including is running backwards.

Cole · 29-04-2021 10:43AM

Thanks for the replies Patsy and silverharp. I used to run a lot more than 5km in the past and lift too...but not as heavy as I do now, so I guess it's natural for the lower back (in particular imo) to need a bit more recovery/care with my renewed running.

the baby bull elephant · 29-04-2021 11:08AM

Cole wrote: »

Thanks for the replies Patsy and silverharp. I used to run a lot more than 5km in the past and lift too...but not as heavy as I do now, so I guess it's natural for the lower back (in particular imo) to need a bit more recovery/care with my renewed running.

On mobile so can't link stuff easily but depending how reddit familiar you are it may be useful to have a snoop at u/sumodadlifts profile. He does his own programming and does a lot of running and heavy lifting. Deadlifts over 700lbs and benches over 400 and has run a 16 something 5k I think. Also done the deadlift 600 and run 6 miles thing I believe. So there may be some stuff you can adapt from his training to help yours.

Black Sheep · 29-04-2021 11:09AM

Cole wrote: »

A question for any powerlifters who also run. How do you plan your lifting (squats/DLs) around your running or vice-versa?

I've got back into (early morning) running recently (5km) after a few years and am finding my lower back taking a bit of a strain from it...not pain or injury just kind of tired I guess. On the days that I'm squatting or deadlifting (no running on the day or next day) I'm always a bit concerned whether my lower back is recovered enough from the running.

I don't remember it being so much of an issue in the past, but then again being in my late 40s probably plays its part.

Not sure I would compete enough or focus on my competition lifts to the extent I'd consider myself a powerlifter, but for what it's worth...

Assuming your goal is to feel more athletic, improve recovery between sets, maybe get leaner etc (All valid reasons..):-

I do an upper / lower split , four days a week. Two max effort days with assistance and accessories, and two dynamic / volume days with assistance and accessories.

If I want to 'run' on a lower body day then I do my main lift and back-offs, my assistance lift, and then I do the 'run'.

So for example yesterday I worked up to a heavy single on front squat, then 3x3 front squat at 85%, then assistance was 3x5 RDL, then I did the 'run'.

I say 'run' because for a variety of reasons (Time efficiency, recovery, athletic carryover) I prefer to do a protocol like push a prowler/dogsled or do a series of runs/sprints rather than do an intermediate distance run of any kind. Yesterday I pushed a sled for 8 rounds, 1 minute recovery between them. I have a friend who does the same programming as me and he prefers to do sprints.

I do this once per week, if the weather is nice I might do it twice.

The alternative to doing it this way is that in lieu of the 'run' I do my full accessories... Might be something like 3-4 sets of DB lunges, 3-4 sets of a back exercise, calf raises etc. If I had access to machines it would be machine work.

Recovery considerations: If you're 40+ (like me) then yeah I drop out the accessories as outlined. I also think that if you're training 4 days a week it's better to consolidate the 'run' on one of those days rather than putting it on a seperate day, that will not help matters, you're better keeping your rest days as actual rest days unless you're really doing a mild recovery type run where it's about the music and the scenery.

There's a bazillion articles out there that can be linked to, but I take it you're looking for person experience.

Cole · 29-04-2021 11:12AM

the baby bull elephant wrote: »

On mobile so can't link stuff easily but depending how reddit familiar you are it may be useful to have a snoop at u/sumodadlifts profile. He does his own programming and does a lot of running and heavy lifting. Deadlifts over 700lbs and benches over 400 and has run a 16 something 5k I think. Also done the deadlift 600 and run 6 miles thing I believe. So there may be some stuff you can adapt from his training to help yours.

Cheers...I'll have a look

Cole · 29-04-2021 11:33AM

Black Sheep wrote: »

Not sure I would compete enough or focus on my competition lifts to the extent I'd consider myself a powerlifter, but for what it's worth...

Assuming your goal is to feel more athletic, improve recovery between sets, maybe get leaner etc (All valid reasons..):-

I do an upper / lower split , four days a week. Two max effort days with assistance and accessories, and two dynamic / volume days with assistance and accessories.

If I want to 'run' on a lower body day then I do my main lift and back-offs, my assistance lift, and then I do the 'run'.

So for example yesterday I worked up to a heavy single on front squat, then 3x3 front squat at 85%, then assistance was 3x5 RDL, then I did the 'run'.

I say 'run' because for a variety of reasons (Time efficiency, recovery, athletic carryover) I prefer to do a protocol like push a prowler/dogsled or do a series of runs/sprints rather than do an intermediate distance run of any kind. Yesterday I pushed a sled for 8 rounds, 1 minute recovery between them. I have a friend who does the same programming as me and he prefers to do sprints.

I do this once per week, if the weather is nice I might do it twice.

The alternative to doing it this way is that in lieu of the 'run' I do my full accessories... Might be something like 3-4 sets of DB lunges, 3-4 sets of a back exercise, calf raises etc. If I had access to machines it would be machine work.

Recovery considerations: If you're 40+ (like me) then yeah I drop out the accessories as outlined. I also think that if you're training 4 days a week it's better to consolidate the 'run' on one of those days rather than putting it on a seperate day, that will not help matters, you're better keeping your rest days as actual rest days unless you're really doing a mild recovery type run where it's about the music and the scenery.

There's a bazillion articles out there that can be linked to, but I take it you're looking for person experience.

Thanks for the detail. No problem, I'm not really a powerlifter either...just try to train like one! I've been doing a similar upper/lower split for years, but I've been using the (slightly modified) 531 BBB programme in more recent times. I got back into the running to try to drop a bit of body fat and am enjoying it again.

I'm an early morning runner, so I run on upper day mornings and my mid week 'rest day', with the weekend as two days of full rest, apart from walks. I used to do some of those accessories like lunges, but I've dropped them now...too much for my legs.

A lot of trial and error I think. Cheers for the feedback.

Cill94 · 29-04-2021 11:44AM

Cole wrote: »

A question for any powerlifters who also run. How do you plan your lifting (squats/DLs) around your running or vice-versa?

I've got back into (early morning) running recently (5km) after a few years and am finding my lower back taking a bit of a strain from it...not pain or injury just kind of tired I guess. On the days that I'm squatting or deadlifting (no running on the day or next day) I'm always a bit concerned whether my lower back is recovered enough from the running.

I don't remember it being so much of an issue in the past, but then again being in my late 40s probably plays its part.

First decide what your goal is - do you care more about the running or the lifting? Once you know that, it’s just a matter of using the minimum effective dose of the less important one.

I’m on a break from running at the moment as my lifting volume is at its highest (subbed for walks), but even before that I found that just one run a week was enough for me to slowly improve at running, without it affecting my lifts.

The fact your lower back is giving you issues might be an indication that you just need to do less for now.

Black Sheep · 29-04-2021 03:38PM

Jim Wendler has written here and there about running and 5/3/1.

5/3/1 Forever has a lot on it, but there's a synopsis here too: https://www.jimwendler.com/blogs/jimwendler-com/running-lifting-and-becoming-a-marine-officer

I feel like his recommendation to run 'sets' i.e 8x100m or whatever, is not dissimilar to what I'm suggesting above.

It goes without saying that when you're 40+ sprints or hard runs are never all-out, they're 80% as he says, for practical reasons and to save your achilles.

new2tri19 · 30-04-2021 10:38AM

Not sure if I'm doing incline bench correctly a couple of questions if someone has time to answer please.

Do you arch your back like flat bench ? Would grip width be the same as flat bench ? And on bar path and starting position I lie down with eyes directly in line below bar , bring the bar down to touch chest just below nipple and return is that correct ? Thanks

Alf Veedersane · 30-04-2021 11:10AM

new2tri19 wrote: »

Not sure if I'm doing incline bench correctly a couple of questions if someone has time to answer please.

Do you arch your back like flat bench ? Would grip width be the same as flat bench ? And on bar path and starting position I lie down with eyes directly in line below bar , bring the bar down to touch chest just below nipple and return is that correct ? Thanks

Think of it as a normal bench press that you happen to be doing at an incline. It may touch the chest a bit higher but focus on getting the set up right, as you always would, and it will touch the chest where it touches it.

Bey0nd · 05-05-2021 12:32PM

Question on calorie surplus.

What happens if someone moves from the following:

(a) Little exercise and little strength, a very dirty calorie surplus (junk food and takeaways) and quite overweight as a result

...to...

(b) Doing lots of strength based training, maintaining a calorie surplus - but a good, healthy one with the right macros to build muscle.

Will they just burn fat and build muscle as expected, or is this inefficient? Are they better off losing the weight first on a deficit and then building it back up as muscle via surplus?

silverharp · 05-05-2021 02:49PM

Bey0nd wrote: »

Question on calorie surplus.

What happens if someone moves from the following:

(a) Little exercise and little strength, a very dirty calorie surplus (junk food and takeaways) and quite overweight as a result

...to...

(b) Doing lots of strength based training, maintaining a calorie surplus - but a good, healthy one with the right macros to build muscle.

Will they just burn fat and build muscle as expected, or is this inefficient? Are they better off losing the weight first on a deficit and then building it back up as muscle via surplus?

they are parallel projects but on different time frames, but in the first year the priority is dropping the weight to normal and of course build up fitness and strength as one can. Someone could lose 10-20KG of fat in a year, but someone starting from 0 in the gym might gain 2-4kg of muscle mass in the first year so whatever way someone plays it its going to be a deficit

Alf Veedersane · 05-05-2021 03:18PM

Bey0nd wrote: »

Question on calorie surplus.

What happens if someone moves from the following:

(a) Little exercise and little strength, a very dirty calorie surplus (junk food and takeaways) and quite overweight as a result

...to...

(b) Doing lots of strength based training, maintaining a calorie surplus - but a good, healthy one with the right macros to build muscle.

Will they just burn fat and build muscle as expected, or is this inefficient? Are they better off losing the weight first on a deficit and then building it back up as muscle via surplus?

If you're quite overweight then the primary focus is losing fat. But that doesn't mean you don't do lots of strength training as well. You want to hold onto as much muscle as you can while on a deficit

So (b) except with a calorie deficit as opposed to a surplus

Cill94 · 05-05-2021 04:19PM

Bey0nd wrote: »

Question on calorie surplus.

What happens if someone moves from the following:

(a) Little exercise and little strength, a very dirty calorie surplus (junk food and takeaways) and quite overweight as a result

...to...

(b) Doing lots of strength based training, maintaining a calorie surplus - but a good, healthy one with the right macros to build muscle.

Will they just burn fat and build muscle as expected, or is this inefficient? Are they better off losing the weight first on a deficit and then building it back up as muscle via surplus?

This depends on how much body fat you’re carrying. I’m also assuming you’re fairly new to training?

Essentially if you’re at an unhealthy body fat, you should train to get as strong as you can while in a small deficit, until you eventually get to a healthy body fat.

If you’re only slightly overweight (say around 20% body fat) and new to training, then I would just try to maintain your calories and get stronger and fitter, which will lead to losing fat and gaining muscle (weight may stay constant but body composition should change).

new2tri19 · 05-05-2021 05:30PM

silverharp wrote: »

they are parallel projects but on different time frames, but in the first year the priority is dropping the weight to normal and of course build up fitness and strength as one can. Someone could lose 10-20KG of fat in a year, but someone starting from 0 in the gym might gain 2-4kg of muscle mass in the first year so whatever way someone plays it its going to be a deficit

I remember looking at this before and I think I read a few different articles that said 1kg a month was possible to gain in muscle mass .
I think the problem is it's very hard to tell if your gaining muscle or fat , when I was forcing feeding myself and doing weights I gained a lot of weight I initially thought it was muscle but it was obviously fat aswell . Now eating less but high protein I'm probably losing weight but look like I've more muscle cause I'm shredding a bit of fat .

I think if your overweight, eat more protein 1g per pound of bodyweight a day . Weight train so youll be burn more calories and try do some cardio , run walk or cycle each day .

Bey0nd · 05-05-2021 08:36PM

Thanks all.

I'm certainly on the unhealthy side of things.

An online calculator I used (which accounts for 4 workouts per week with a workout defined as 30 minutes elevated heart level) has my maintenance calories at ~ 2700, and recommends 2200 as my deficit for weight loss. Does that sound about right, or should I up that to maybe 2500 if I want more focus on muscle building but still achieving (slower I guess) fat loss?

new2tri19 · 05-05-2021 09:27PM

Bey0nd wrote: »

Thanks all.

I'm certainly on the unhealthy side of things.

An online calculator I used (which accounts for 4 workouts per week with a workout defined as 30 minutes elevated heart level) has my maintenance calories at ~ 2700, and recommends 2200 as my deficit for weight loss. Does that sound about right, or should I up that to maybe 2500 if I want more focus on muscle building but still achieving (slower I guess) fat loss?

I don't know how accurate they are , it's probably more trial an error . It could be individual. Maybe try 2200 and see if you lose weight after a week if not reduce it ?
I think you could train more to speed things up ? I eat 2500 and train 2 hours a day everyday minimum and weight is not really moving up or down that much.
I think it's trial and error with these things some people need more calories to just function , find something you enjoy doing be my advice could be as simple as walking while listening to a podcast aim to walk 30 mins then build it up to 1 hour .
Set yourself weight lifting targets or walking / running / swimming targets my wife starts and stops so many of these weight loss things on my fitness Pal every few months she loses weight but then puts it back on again .
I've been training since 2007 various different things but have managed at least an hour a day on average since 2007 , the secret is I do something I enjoy till I don't enjoy it , got big into running did marathons then cycling , etc , you get the jist sorry for long waffle basically find something you enjoy and it won't feel like a chore and you'll want to do it each day . Good luck

Cill94 · 06-05-2021 12:41PM

Bey0nd wrote: »

Thanks all.

I'm certainly on the unhealthy side of things.

An online calculator I used (which accounts for 4 workouts per week with a workout defined as 30 minutes elevated heart level) has my maintenance calories at ~ 2700, and recommends 2200 as my deficit for weight loss. Does that sound about right, or should I up that to maybe 2500 if I want more focus on muscle building but still achieving (slower I guess) fat loss?

Definitely aim to lose weight then. Good news is you'll probably be able to gain some muscle and strength while doing this, so long as you don't do a drastic deficit and eat enough protein.

You're unlikely to get an accurate estimate from those calculators. That's fine though, because as long as you've entered accurate info about yourself, it won't be off by a lot.

What you need to do is aim to take in the same amount every day, and make your weigh-ins as similar as possible (e.g. first thing in morning, after using loo, before eating or drinking, same amount of clothes). If your weight doesn't move in the right direction after a few weeks, just adjust the calories.

carrollsno1 · 09-05-2021 07:39PM

Howye? Not sure if its the right place to ask but i suppose its as good a place as any. Re Wim Hof which book is better? The Wim Hof Method or The Iceman Speaks? Will be buying on Audible and the former is not narrated by the man himself thats the only drawback i can find so far. Thanks in advance.

ThunbergsAreGo · 11-05-2021 01:53PM

What are people opinions on shrugs?

Doing WSFSB3 at the moment and they are in for twice a week, but they feel like an exercise in which time would be better used doing something else

Black Sheep · 11-05-2021 02:01PM

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

What are people opinions on shrugs?

Doing WSFSB3 at the moment and they are in for twice a week, but they feel like an exercise in which time would be better used doing something else

Shrugs are a great movement from a physique point of view. If you do heavy shrugs once a week, as they are programmed in WS4SB, and then add in some more direct neck work with a harness, then your neck will grow, assuming there's a good bit of indirect stimulation going on as well from benching, deadlifting, rows etc.

In terms of the time involved and whether it's good bang for buck...

The way WS4SB and other programmes where you might be doing shrugs work is that they are done way after your main lift of the day and the important assistance work. Typically I would do work at the end of my accessories. If you have the time you do them... If you don't, then you don't.

On a lower body day maybe calves are analogous, or maybe direct arm training fits too. It's not that important for health or your overall performance, but if you want to bring along a specific body part then direct training works.

Last workout I did with shrugs, for example:-

Bench 6x6
Press 4x8-12
Pull ups 3 x max
Push ups 3 x max
Shrugs 3 x 15 (I actually did 5 sets in the end)

If I didn't do shrugs then anything I subbed in would have to be in a similar category (Maybe neck curls or something else very specific), I'd blasted myself pretty comprehensively with the preceding stuff.

In terms of performing them the most common errors I see are not using full ROM and simply using too light a weight. Using a pair of 30kg DBs is not going to do it for adult males, it needs to be up around 2/3 of your deadlift 1RM weight probably. Sometimes I will use a slightly lighter load and hold the top position for a pause.

Cill94 · 11-05-2021 08:11PM

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

What are people opinions on shrugs?

Doing WSFSB3 at the moment and they are in for twice a week, but they feel like an exercise in which time would be better used doing something else

Personally not a fan. Traps are a muscle group that get a lot of indirect work as it is. I'd only see a need to do them if you particularly want bigger traps.

People like Ed Coan liked them a lot for building his deadlift, but that's probably not really applicable unless you're pulling biggg weights.

Reps4jesus · 12-05-2021 09:37AM

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

What are people opinions on shrugs?

Doing WSFSB3 at the moment and they are in for twice a week, but they feel like an exercise in which time would be better used doing something else

my traps were my only muscle that group that always looked big, never trained them directly when doing heavy deadlifts but after a bicep tear i kinda ditched deadlifts and just did heavy shrugs with a pause at the top and they stayed big. If you are deadlifting I wouldnt bother doing them, if you arent then i would throw them in, they are a relatively quick and easy exercise to do

paw patrol · 12-05-2021 01:15PM

i got the best results with shrugs from holding each rep for 3secs (long count) at the top. set to failure.
you'll probably need to drop the weight , go slow and feel every bit of it.

i do heavy shrugs too - believe all rep range important - but I find the hold each rep worked v well for me.

will do again come 7th june

Patsy167 · 12-05-2021 01:27PM

Depending on your program or goals, Farmers walks might be a good alternative to shrugs. Much better bang for your buck with more big muscles worked.

Black Sheep · 12-05-2021 02:15PM

Yeah, but the point is that you don't always want compound lifts / exercises that work more big muscles.

Accessories programmed at the end of a workout tend to be an isolation movement for good reason. Direct training of a relevant muscle group to target it, and isolation rather than just another compound because it's less likely to interfere with recovery and the main lifts of your next workout. As it is heavy shrugs flirt with being more than an isolation movement.

new2tri19 · 17-05-2021 10:30PM

The YouTube algorithms have lots of lifting videos showing on my feed now . Nearly everyone I see doing squats has some kind of straps on their knees. Is this something everyone should be doing or only those that have issues ? I don't currently have any knee problems , is it harmful to lift long term without knee protection thanks ?

Deano7788 · 17-05-2021 10:43PM

new2tri19 wrote: »

The YouTube algorithms have lots of lifting videos showing on my feed now . Nearly everyone I see doing squats has some kind of straps on their knees. Is this something everyone should be doing or only those that have issues ? I don't currently have any knee problems , is it harmful to lift long term without knee protection thanks ?

Probably either sleeves of wraps.

Wraps are typically used in certain powerlifting federations, will increase the amount you could lift as they increase your bounce out of the hole. Not at all needed outside of that and are not comfortable to have on (they're taken off and put back on for every set). They're also very difficult to put on on your own, especially if not experienced with them. And they don't offer any protection, in fact a few high level lifters refuse to wear them as they claim they increase their chance of injury.

Sleeves can vary from just keeping your knees warm and feeling nice to giving potentially a bit of an extra bounce at the bottom (I do get a performance boost from mine) . They're also used a lot in some powerlifting federations, including the one a few of us lift in where wraps aren't allowed. Not needed as such but a lot of people just find it nicer to wear them. I wouldn't really worry about them yet but at the same time they also won't do any harm really.

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