Vaccine Megathread - See OP for threadbans

ddarcy · 30-04-2021 11:55AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Except those who received AZ are considered fully vaccinated 4 weeks after first dose

Yeah this is a problem for the government. AZ requires a second dose because it loses efficacy quickly. So not denying that at 4 weeks you’re grand. But that lessens as the weeks go on. What this is telling me is that outside all the spin from the government, people would rather wait and get another. So they’re desperate to get people to take it. Could be wrong, but this is what it looks like to me right now.

30-04-2021 11:59AM

ddarcy wrote: »

Yeah this is a problem for the government. AZ requires a second dose because it loses efficacy quickly. So not denying that at 4 weeks you’re grand. But that lessens as the weeks go on. What this is telling me is that outside all the spin from the government, people would rather wait and get another. So they’re desperate to get people to take it. Could be wrong, but this is what it looks like to me right now.

Incorrect.

AZ requires the booster to ensure efficacy is maintained long term, this can happen out to 12 weeks, but it does not increase the effectiveness, therefore the full protection is there from 4 weeks.

With the mRNA vaccines, you need to second dose to achieve the maximum effect

seamus · 30-04-2021 12:00PM

sd1999 wrote: »

But those over 50s have access to a vaccine, just not the specific vaccine that they want. It's extremely entitled.

I don't disagree with that. The point remains though. If they decided en masse to reject the AZ vaccine, the HSE could not just choose to skip over them and circle back at the end. That doesn't achieve the best outcome from a public health perspective.

SJFly · 30-04-2021 12:00PM

Supercell wrote: »

I'm sorry, but whats your point? We have no idea of J&J is going to arrive when its currently planned for, others have been posting stories that cast considerable doubt on that. If it arrives when planned then that's great, but to hold off vaccinating all the 50+ cohort in the hope that transpires seems reckless.

I don't think anyone is proposing over 50s waiting indefinitely specifically for j&j. There's a big difference between a short delay (weeks) and vaccinating in parallel with over 40s, and a large delay (months) and vaccinating in parallel with teenagers. There is a middle ground and sensible decisions need to be made for the good of all society.

sd1999 · 30-04-2021 12:05PM

seamus wrote: »

I don't disagree with that. The point remains though. If they decided en masse to reject the AZ vaccine, the HSE could not just choose to skip over them and circle back at the end. That doesn't achieve the best outcome from a public health perspective.

But giving over 50s something other than AZ is arguably worse from a public health perspective as it delays the entire programme for everyone else. Yes there would be less hospitialistions and deaths but they are being given the chance to protect themselves against that. If they don't take that chance, they will have to make do with secondary protection from others being vaccinated and reducing transmission.

Ll31 · 30-04-2021 12:07PM

Originally Posted by sd1999 View Post
But those over 50s have access to a vaccine, just not the specific vaccine that they want. It's extremely entitled

No, over 50s can on medical advice take any of 4 vaccines. But people want them restricted to 2, and the other 2, used to vaccinate younger cohorts ahead of them, against niac advise. We know j&j are due late June at earliest. We know other vaccines are here now. So saying to over 50 s you can register now but we will only vaccinate u late June or July despite us having vaccines on hand which u are eligible for, is the issue. There is nothing entitled about objecting to that.

Yes it would be entitled to demand a specific vaccine. I'm just saying the over 50 s should get whatever vaccine is available when they are being vaccinated, not restricted to two vaccines which are not currently available. At least I hope the HSE and govt call it what it is if they take this route, total disregard of niac advice.

There is something unpleasant about pretending that people are not trying to vaccinate younger cohorts before older cohorts.

funnydoggy · 30-04-2021 12:09PM

https://www.thejournal.ie/micheal-martin-vaccination-5424720-Apr2021/

'Parallel' vaccination of age cohorts could soon be in place as supplies increase, Martin says

TAOISEACH MICHEÁL MARTIN has said there may be a “parallel” vaccination system as supplies begin to increase, vaccinating two cohorts at the same time.

30-04-2021 12:10PM

Ll31 wrote: »

Originally Posted by sd1999 View Post
But those over 50s have access to a vaccine, just not the specific vaccine that they want. It's extremely entitled

No, over 50s can on medical advice take any of 4 vaccines. But people want them restricted to 2, and the other 2, used to vaccinate younger cohorts ahead of them, against niac advise. We know j&j are due late June at earliest. We know other vaccines are here now. So saying to over 50 s you can register now but we will only vaccinate u late June or July despite us having vaccines on hand which u are eligible for, is the issue. There is nothing entitled about objecting to that.

Yes it would be entitled to demand a specific vaccine. I'm just saying the over 50 s should get whatever vaccine is available when they are being vaccinated, not restricted to two vaccines which are not currently available. At least I hope the HSE and govt call it what it is if they take this route, total disregard of niac advice.

There is something unpleasant about pretending that people are not trying to vaccinate younger cohorts before older cohorts.

Its pretty unpleasant to want to vaccinated the over 50s at any cost, even if it means we run out supply for everyone else.

ddarcy · 30-04-2021 12:11PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Incorrect.

AZ requires the booster to ensure efficacy is maintained long term, this can happen out to 12 weeks, but it does not increase the effectiveness, therefore the full protection is there from 4 weeks.

With the mRNA vaccines, you need to second dose to achieve the maximum effect

So you agree with me. As time rolls on it loses its effectiveness. This happens anyways (eg Pfizer after 6 months dropped from 95 to 90). It’s just quicker than what would normally happen in AZ, so the second booster is needed to maintain it longer. Not saying it’s going to magically go from 75pct to 90 pct with the second jab. This was found in the early phase studies.

My worry would be that is you tell someone that they are fully vaccinated and then say they need another injection when all other fully vaccinated people using other vaccines do not, that people will skip the second injection.

Ll31 · 30-04-2021 12:13PM

'Parallel' vaccination of age cohorts could soon be in place as supplies increase, Martin says

Quote:
TAOISEACH MICHEÁL MARTIN has said there may be a “parallel” vaccination system as supplies begin to increase, vaccinating two cohorts at the same time.
funnydoggy is online now Report Post

I hope some one is going to ask Michael martin for details on deliveries and if as expected astroz and j&j are not available till end June, why they are vaccinating younger cohorts before older cohorts, against medical advice.

sd1999 · 30-04-2021 12:14PM

Ll31 wrote: »

Originally Posted by sd1999 View Post
But those over 50s have access to a vaccine, just not the specific vaccine that they want. It's extremely entitled

No, over 50s can on medical advice take any of 4 vaccines. But people want them restricted to 2, and the other 2, used to vaccinate younger cohorts ahead of them, against niac advise. We know j&j are due late June at earliest. We know other vaccines are here now. So saying to over 50 s you can register now but we will only vaccinate u late June or July despite us having vaccines on hand which u are eligible for, is the issue. There is nothing entitled about objecting to that.

Yes it would be entitled to demand a specific vaccine. I'm just saying the over 50 s should get whatever vaccine is available when they are being vaccinated, not restricted to two vaccines which are not currently available. At least I hope the HSE and govt call it what it is if they take this route, total disregard of niac advice.

There is something unpleasant about pretending that people are not trying to vaccinate younger cohorts before older cohorts.

They're vaccinating younger cohorts (40-49) a little earlier than they would've been done for the benefit of the entire population. The ten year age difference doesn't confer as much of a risk as say the difference between 80-89 and 70-79. And again, the most vulnerable in the 50-59 group (in cohorts 4 and 7) will already be done. We're talking about delaying the vaccination of an older cohort for a few weeks to prevent extending the lockdown for everyone.

Ll31 · 30-04-2021 12:14PM

Its pretty unpleasant to want to vaccinated the over 50s at any cost, even if it means we run out supply for everyone else

But it's ok to vaccinate everyone else, even if we've no supply for over 50 s... Yep that's clear .

Ll31 · 30-04-2021 12:16PM

They're vaccinating younger cohorts (40-49) a little earlier than they would've been done for the benefit of the entire population. The ten year age difference doesn't confer as much of a risk as say the difference between 80-89 and 70-79. And again, the most vulnerable in the 50-59 group (in cohorts 4 and 7) will already be done. We're talking about delaying the vaccination of an older cohort for a few weeks to prevent extending the lockdown for everyone.

A few weeks? So they can register next week and get an appt in July, if, and it is if, j& j, deliver as promised. Also I suggest u look at risks again.

sd1999 · 30-04-2021 12:17PM

AdamD wrote: »

Its pretty unpleasant to want to vaccinated the over 50s at any cost, even if it means we run out supply for everyone else.

Exactly, it would take at least a couple of months to make up the 1.2 million doses of Pfizer that would be needed to counter the 600,000 wasted J&J doses.

ixoy · 30-04-2021 12:18PM

Ll31 wrote: »

But it's ok to vaccinate everyone else, even if we've no supply for over 50 s... Yep that's clear .

But we would. If J & J had sudden supply issues, you'd make the call to switch the cohort to the other vaccines because you couldn't wait.

30-04-2021 12:20PM

ddarcy wrote: »

So you agree with me. As time rolls on it loses its effectiveness. This happens anyways (eg Pfizer after 6 months dropped from 95 to 90). It’s just quicker than what would normally happen in AZ, so the second booster is needed to maintain it longer. Not saying it’s going to magically go from 75pct to 90 pct with the second jab. This was found in the early phase studies.

My worry would be that is you tell someone that they are fully vaccinated and then say they need another injection when all other fully vaccinated people using other vaccines do not, that people will skip the second injection.

No, the difference is the full protection associated with the AZ vaccine is achieved after 4 weeks, with Pfizer this is only a week after dose 2. That's why vaccine bonus can be applied to AZ after dose 1. Yes, long term efficacy is maintained with does 2, but once dose 1 has had 4 weeks, they are as protected as they would be after dose 2, so why not give them the benefits

Strazdas · 30-04-2021 12:29PM

sd1999 wrote: »

Exactly, it would take at least a couple of months to make up the 1.2 million doses of Pfizer that would be needed to counter the 600,000 wasted J&J doses.

People are assuming too much here. It's very possible that NIAC advice on J & J might change in a few weeks' time - the assumption being made is that the restriction on it going to the under 50s is set in stone and can never be undone (when NIAC themselves have already said it can be given to the under 50s if there is a shortage of vaccines).

Ll31 · 30-04-2021 12:33PM

clear .
But we would. If J & J had sudden supply issues, you'd make the call to switch the cohort to the other vaccines because you couldn't wait.

In July. Which is the point...

ddarcy · 30-04-2021 12:34PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No, the difference is the full protection associated with the AZ vaccine is achieved after 4 weeks, with Pfizer this is only a week after dose 2. That's why vaccine bonus can be applied to AZ after dose 1. Yes, long term efficacy is maintained with does 2, but once dose 1 has had 4 weeks, they are as protected as they would be after dose 2, so why not give them the benefits

My main concern is that once people have that they are fully vaccinated in mind they won’t line up for more. It’s a psychological problem here. Agree that after 4 weeks you are technically vaccinated, but my concern would be on that second shot and prolonged vaccination. AZ wouldn’t get approval for one shot as the efficacy falls too quickly. The second dose is hoped to have efficacy last at least a year.

In summary there is no issue with someone getting one shot of AZ and saying they are technically fully vaccinated for now. The issue is near the end of summer when the efficacy massively drops in it. If you don’t get the second dose then we are back to square one basically. Really the government should say you are fully vaccinated from week 4-16 instead of just 4.

Skygord · 30-04-2021 12:38PM

https://twitter.com/BioNTech_Group/status/1388088438327545856?s=20

funnydoggy · 30-04-2021 12:40PM

To add to my last post -

Dept considering parallel vaccination of 40-49 and 50-59 cohorts

https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0430/1213016-covid-ireland-latest/

This would be huge!

is_that_so · 30-04-2021 12:47PM

Strazdas wrote: »

People are assuming too much here. It's very possible that NIAC advice on J & J might change in a few weeks' time - the assumption being made is that the restriction on it going to the under 50s is set in stone and can never be undone (when NIAC themselves have already said it can be given to the under 50s if there is a shortage of vaccines).

In all probability it won't and they do have a preference for mRNA vaccines. There will need to be a level of juggling supplies to get the over 50s done anyway and the imminent approval of CureVac will help with the other age groups.

Strazdas · 30-04-2021 12:48PM

funnydoggy wrote: »

To add to my last post -

Dept considering parallel vaccination of 40-49 and 50-59 cohorts

https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0430/1213016-covid-ireland-latest/

This would be huge!

It sounds like they would open the portal but then simply leave it open for the first few weeks in May i.e. 59, 58, 57 year olds register on consecutive days but then it carries on apace with 50, 49, 48 year olds etc.

ixoy · 30-04-2021 12:51PM

funnydoggy wrote: »

To add to my last post -

Dept considering parallel vaccination of 40-49 and 50-59 cohorts

https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0430/1213016-covid-ireland-latest/

This would be huge!

It'd certainly suit me

Strazdas · 30-04-2021 12:51PM

is_that_so wrote: »

In all probability it won't and they do have a preference for mRNA vaccines. There will need to be a level of juggling supplies to get the over 50s done anyway and the imminent approval of CureVac will help with the other age groups.

For sure, but I think people are worrying unnecessarily about unused J & J vaccines. We can deal with that if and when it happens - for the moment, just throw every vaccine available at the eligible population.

Darwin · 30-04-2021 12:51PM

funnydoggy wrote: »

To add to my last post -

Dept considering parallel vaccination of 40-49 and 50-59 cohorts

https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0430/1213016-covid-ireland-latest/

This would be huge!

More spin from SD. To put it another way, we are partially skipping the 50 to 59 cohort. The J&J vaccine is being given to people age 18 and over in the US, they should follow that lead here and continue with the original plan of vaccination by age.

munchkin_utd · 30-04-2021 12:51PM

is_that_so wrote: »

In all probability it won't and they do have a preference for mRNA vaccines. There will need to be a level of juggling supplies to get the over 50s done anyway and the imminent approval of CureVac will help with the other age groups.

could they not do like is done in other countries if stuck with a few doses, and release it for anyone under the standard recommended age limit who voluntarily applies for the J+J jab and is prepared to accept the minuscule risk against the not inconsiderable benefits (not least of all, that you only need the 1 jab)

Turtwig · 30-04-2021 12:59PM

Skygord wrote: »

https://twitter.com/BioNTech_Group/status/1388088438327545856?s=20

Excellent stuff.

Valhallapt · 30-04-2021 12:59PM

Strazdas wrote: »

For sure, but I think people are worrying unnecessarily about unused J & J vaccines. We can deal with that if and when it happens - for the moment, just throw every vaccine available at the eligible population.

Possibly one of the stupidest things I’ve read on the internet.

is_that_so · 30-04-2021 01:03PM

munchkin_utd wrote: »

could they not do like is done in other countries if stuck with a few doses, and release it for anyone under the standard recommended age limit who voluntarily applies for the J+J jab and is prepared to accept the minuscule risk against the not inconsiderable benefits (not least of all, that you only need the 1 jab)

J&J advice comes with that caveat of using it if there's nothing else available so some may find their way into the under 50s anyway.

Vaccine Megathread - See OP for threadbans

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