What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

21-04-2021 10:19AM

robinph wrote: »

Which just means that a statement from the boss of one company about the product from a couple of other companies and using lots of mights and maybes and coulds and don't knows to cover themselves should be taken with large grains of salt.

It's no more known what vaccines we'll be using next year, or the year after, or who, how many and in what categories we'll need to give them, than it is known what new variant will emerge next week from Timbuktu that will cause the next thing for headline writers to get worried about.

I read that as "Pfizer boss says we should buy more Pfizer products".

It may or may not be true, but it definitely falls in to the "He would say that, wouldn't he?" category.

fly_agaric · 21-04-2021 11:52AM

Skygord wrote: »

AstraZeneca "Delivery scheduled for April 24th has been reduced from 45,000 doses to 9,000 doses"

If it follows trends for the quarter gone, I suppose there'll be a highly variable trickle of supply for April/May and larger amounts in June perhaps, when end date for meeting the Quarter 2 "target" :rolleyes: approaches.
Must be very, very hard for health services around Europe (ex UK of course) to plan anything around this vaccine with such carry on.

OscarMIlde · 21-04-2021 05:03PM

robinph wrote: »

I'm seeing mentions of them being in development/ use since the '70's?

They were widely used in research by molecular biologists. They were not used for vaccines.

deeperlearning · 22-04-2021 12:02PM

A Viral Immunologist in Australia explains why viral vector is not a long term solution:

https://theconversation.com/3-doses-then-1-each-year-why-pfizer-not-astrazeneca-is-the-best-bet-for-the-long-haul-159137

Not only are mRNA vaccines much easier to update than the viral-vector vaccines but there is also the issue of vector immunity with the viral-vector vaccines.

In other words, you can’t be repeatedly immunised with this type of vaccine because you’ll likely develop immunity to the adenovirus vector (the delivery vehicle) itself.

IRISHSPORTSGUY · 22-04-2021 12:17PM

When is the NIAC decision on J&J due today?

Russman · 22-04-2021 12:24PM

IRISHSPORTSGUY wrote: »

When is the NIAC decision on J&J due today?

RTE reporting its put back to next week
https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2021/0422/1211323-covid-ireland/

Strazdas · 22-04-2021 12:36PM

Russman wrote: »

RTE reporting its put back to next week
https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2021/0422/1211323-covid-ireland/

Interesting to hear Varadkar say he would like to see it given to the under 60s (not that this would have any impact on NIAC....it's not their job to take instructions from politicians).

robinph · 22-04-2021 02:26PM

deeperlearning wrote: »

This article outlines why mRNA vaccines are the way forward.

https://theconversation.com/3-doses-then-1-each-year-why-pfizer-not-astrazeneca-is-the-best-bet-for-the-long-haul-159137

The advantage of mRNA vaccines like Pfizer’s is they’re much easier to update than the “viral vector” vaccines like AstraZeneca’s. An updated vaccine is produced more quickly.

Another issues is what immunologists call “vector immunity”. You can’t be repeatedly immunised with a viral vector vaccine because you’ll likely develop immunity to the adenovirus vector (the delivery vehicle) itself.

Feel like you may have posted this before?

deeperlearning wrote: »

A Viral Immunologist in Australia explains why viral vector is not a long term solution:

https://theconversation.com/3-doses-then-1-each-year-why-pfizer-not-astrazeneca-is-the-best-bet-for-the-long-haul-159137

Not only are mRNA vaccines much easier to update than the viral-vector vaccines but there is also the issue of vector immunity with the viral-vector vaccines.

In other words, you can’t be repeatedly immunised with this type of vaccine because you’ll likely develop immunity to the adenovirus vector (the delivery vehicle) itself.

deeperlearning · 22-04-2021 04:36PM

Robinp, I'm hardly the only poster on this thread of 5960 posts who has basically said the same thing twice.:)

Or is it only those spouting rubbish that you are quite happy to see repeat ad nauseum?

Stark · 22-04-2021 06:46PM

The RNA in the vaccines doesn't enter the cell nucleus, it goes direct to the ribosomes.

Pfizer/Moderna use a lipid coat.

22-04-2021 07:25PM

exitfee wrote: »

When RNA is injected it circulates the whole body, thus has to enter the cells.

Yes its a protein lipid coat nano particle to avoid detection by the immune system.

Since its a lipid coat does it enter fat cells?Where protein synthesis occurs.

Could fat cells become a resovoir?

Will it behave differently in bone marrow cells?

How does it shed its protective lipid coat inside the cells?

Does it make a difference if they are people or human cells?

exitfee wrote: »

Not all people are humans

brickster69 · 23-04-2021 08:15AM

Some good news from Oxford Uni

https://twitter.com/Halima_Begum/status/1385478014431944709

monkeybutter · 23-04-2021 08:27AM

deeperlearning wrote: »

A Viral Immunologist in Australia explains why viral vector is not a long term solution:

https://theconversation.com/3-doses-then-1-each-year-why-pfizer-not-astrazeneca-is-the-best-bet-for-the-long-haul-159137

Not only are mRNA vaccines much easier to update than the viral-vector vaccines but there is also the issue of vector immunity with the viral-vector vaccines.

In other words, you can’t be repeatedly immunised with this type of vaccine because you’ll likely develop immunity to the adenovirus vector (the delivery vehicle) itself.

surely your immune system response would be at its strongest when getting the second dose of say AZ so, but it is still effective

dogbert27 · 23-04-2021 09:29AM

brickster69 wrote: »

Some good news from Oxford Uni

https://twitter.com/Halima_Begum/status/1385478014431944709

What has that got to do with this Covid thread?

Apart from cheerleading Oxford University are they planning to team up with Astra Zeneca?

drunkmonkey · 23-04-2021 12:39PM

I thought the manufacturers were immune from litigation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6QmI89d1i8

astrofool · 23-04-2021 12:47PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I thought the manufacturers were immune from litigation.

Not under conditional marketing approval that they went for with the EMA. In the UK, the British government is liable. Not sure for FDA approval (AZ isn't approved there yet anyway).

23-04-2021 12:58PM

astrofool wrote: »

Not under conditional marketing approval that they went for with the EMA. In the UK, the British government is liable. Not sure for FDA approval (AZ isn't approved there yet anyway).

The Advance Purchase Agreement that AZ has with the EU and the participating member states, gives AZ an indemnity.

astrofool · 23-04-2021 01:19PM

Aegir wrote: »

The Advance Purchase Agreement that AZ has with the EU and the participating member states, gives AZ an indemnity.

No it does not, you brought this up before, you are wrong here, Conditional Marketing Authority specifically means that the manufacturer takes on liability. The advance purchase agreement cannot override the liability AZ took on when going for CMA. If they had gone for emergency approval then the EU would have taken on liability (and we're lucky we had that delay now as the liability after the clots could end up being very costly, great that Pfizer went for CMA first setting the high bar that AZ had to follow, I wonder how much their shares will tank if the suit goes ahead).

The funny thing is, it will probably be the UK footing the bill for UK liability and EU liability given they've effectively nationalised AZ (depending on which way the wind turns for the little brexiteers!) :pac:

23-04-2021 01:24PM

https://twitter.com/laoneill111/status/1384966966474051588?s=20

A picture paints a thousand words...

NIAC should be ashamed of themselves.

So many missteps due to in their own words ABUNDANCE OF CAUTION.

Meanwhile UK has declared their pandemic over.

I agree with them.

Their pandemic is over.

They have entered a new phase.

We are at least two months behind.

With a different approach from NIAC we could have been alot closer to UK.

1. Dosage strategy of around 10 weeks apart from the start.

2. No restrictions on any vaccine.

3. As age/risk goes down in vaccine rollout then give choice.

We could be at well over 30 to 40% with one dose at this stage.

23-04-2021 01:25PM

astrofool wrote: »

No it does not, you brought this up before, you are wrong here, Conditional Marketing Authority specifically means that the manufacturer takes on liability. The advance purchase agreement cannot override the liability AZ took on when going for CMA. If they had gone for emergency approval then the EU would have taken on liability (and we're lucky we had that delay now as the liability after the clots could end up being very costly, great that Pfizer went for CMA first setting the high bar that AZ had to follow, I wonder how much their shares will tank if the suit goes ahead).

The funny thing is, it will probably be the UK footing the bill for UK liability and EU liability given they've effectively nationalised AZ (depending on which way the wind turns for the little brexiteers!) :pac:

yeah, you waffled about this before. waffle as much as you like, if you can't provide anything to back up you claim, then it is just waffle.

or did i call it bluster?

drunkmonkey · 23-04-2021 01:29PM

Woody79 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/laoneill111/status/1384966966474051588?s=20

He really needs to cop onto himself or he'll end up in litigation as well.

astrofool · 23-04-2021 01:32PM

Aegir wrote: »

yeah, you waffled about this before. waffle as much as you like, if you can't provide anything to back up you claim, then it is just waffle.

or did i call it bluster?

You called it bluster, but you can go and read the EMA website yourself because you are completely dead wrong about this

(you can find the EMA website, can't you? Another poster linked you there before and then you never replied after that until drunkmonkey posted about AZ liability in action, even if RT isn't a great news source, I'll let you and drunkmonkey argue that one).

UK take the liability.
EU don't take the liability.

Guess the EU contract makers are both faster than the UK and better at getting the manufacturer to take liability for their product.

So now the UK has messed up on manufacturing, quietly took vaccines from Europe and is now effectively indemnifying the rest of Europe against liability from the AZ vaccine, it's f*cking hilarious how bad they messed up.

Kudos to them on getting vaccines into arms quickly though.

23-04-2021 01:37PM

astrofool wrote: »

You called it bluster, but you can go and read the EMA website yourself because you are completely dead wrong about this (you can find the EMA website, can't you? Another poster linked you there before and then you never replied after that until drunkmonkey posted about AZ liability in action, even if RT isn't a great news source, I'll let you and drunkmonkey argue that one).

UK take the liability.
EU don't take the liability.

Guess the EU contract makers are both faster than the UK and better at getting the manufacturer to take liability for their product.

So now the UK has messed up on manufacturing, quietly took vaccines from Europe and is now effectively indemnifying the rest of Europe against liability from the AZ vaccine, it's f*cking hilarious how bad they messed up.

Kudos to them on getting vaccines into arms quickly though.

show me where the EU purchase agreement is subject to the type of approval given?

It isn't.

The EU have given a very comprehensive indemnity to AZ that isn't subject to anything. Its all there in clause 14 of the contract.

You can find the contract, can't you?

I can fully understand why they did and I think they were right to, by the way.

23-04-2021 01:38PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

He really needs to cop onto himself or he'll end up in litigation as well.

He has been the most commonseense speaker on covid in ireland.

He adapts quickly to new evidence.

By April May he said all should be wearing masks.

It took until August before our lot took notice.

I get it they are civil servants (risk averse) but its a pandemic.

Get it over as quickly as possible with the evidence at hand.

astrofool · 23-04-2021 01:39PM

Aegir wrote: »

show me where the EU purchase agreement is subject to the type of approval given?

It isn't.

The EU have given a very comprehensive indemnity to AZ that isn't subject to anything. Its all there in clause 14 of the contract.

You can find the contract, can't you?

Tada:

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/qanda_20_2390

Under an EU Conditional Marketing Authorisation (CMA), liability is with the holder of the marketing authorisation. The marketing authorisation holder will be responsible for the product and its safe use.

The CMA occurred after the contract thus AZ take on the liability.

You do understand how that works in addition to your contract looking up skills?

23-04-2021 01:53PM

astrofool wrote: »

Tada:

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/qanda_20_2390

The CMA occurred after the contract thus AZ take on the liability.

You do understand how that works in addition to your contract looking up skills?

do i understand how something on a public website works in relation to a signed contract between two parties?

yes, I do thanks.

do you?

fly_agaric · 23-04-2021 02:04PM

Woody79 wrote: »

We could be at well over 30 to 40% with one dose at this stage.

It doesn't make much difference IMO.
We don't really have enough vaccine yet.
Do you have some extra vaccines for Ireland in your back pocket?:pac:

We are at 904,774 1st doses administered and 371,054 second doses.

https://covid19ireland-geohive.hub.arcgis.com/

We are at ~ 24 % of adult population with at least 1 dose, I make it we could be at ~ 34 % if we'd used all of that for 1st doses instead. So still a ways off the UK (60 % of adults with at least 1 dose or whatever).

I think that boost to % with at least 1 vaccine would also be coming from Pfizer and Moderna all being used for 1st doses against the manufacturers recs/what was done in their trials, and not a benefit from AZ vaccine being freed of NIAC restrictions on age so having a go at NIAC (again) seems unfair.

Bit cynical · 23-04-2021 02:05PM

astrofool wrote: »

So now the UK has messed up on manufacturing, quietly took vaccines from Europe and is now effectively indemnifying the rest of Europe against liability from the AZ vaccine, it's f*cking hilarious how bad they messed up.

However wouldn't the UK also say how "f*cking hilarious" it is that the EU are two months behind the UK in vaccine administrations and increasingly falling further behind?

astrofool · 23-04-2021 02:14PM

Aegir wrote: »

do i understand how something on a public website works in relation to a signed contract between two parties?

yes, I do thanks.

do you?

Yes I do. The relevant part of the APA would only have been enforceable under emergency approval which AZ could have chosen. Under CMA that part of the APA isn't enforceable (and at least Russia Today seems to think that way as well :pac:).

However, I'm sure, no matter what, you will cling to your mistaken belief that the APA is enforceable over the European Medicine Authority decision even when AZ is making pay-outs (I don't think the Italy case will win as clots are already listed as a rare side effect), but at least in this case, the decision by the EU to wait for the Conditional Marketing Approval is paying dividends and keeps the manufacturers on the hook for their product, unlike the UK which will be handling any vaccine related pay-outs.

drunkmonkey · 23-04-2021 02:14PM

Woody79 wrote: »

He has been the most commonseense speaker on covid in ireland.

He adapts quickly to new evidence.

By April May he said all should be wearing masks.

It took until August before our lot took notice.

I get it they are civil servants (risk averse) but its a pandemic.

Get it over as quickly as possible with the evidence at hand.

He's giving national reassurances on things he's doesn't know for certain that's a dangerous game, he has no idea any medium to long term effects of the Covid Vaccines, it's funny you mention about the masks as he used to think they we're just effective as a teapot in preventing Covid, the mob screamed and he changed his mind. That's not a sceintists it's B list celebrity carry on.

What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

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