Cyclists, insurance and road tax

Hurrache

liamog wrote: »

Why is suddenly impossible to do this for ownership of a metal object with a frame number, versus an animal with a microchip?

What is fundamentally different?

Dog licencing is not enforced.

magicbastarder

liamog wrote: »

I am not arguing for the taxation of bicycles. I am pointing out that the argument "system expensive" is invalid based on the existence of another system operating currently in Ireland.

or we could flip the question, as to why there is a system of dog licencing. what was the reason for it, and does that reason still make sense?

liamog

Hurrache wrote: »

Dog licencing is not enforced.

It does get enforced when someone makes a complaint to dog warden, at which point you'll receive a fine for not having a licence. Bike ownership would likely be operated in a similar manner.

I wouldn't mind paying a small registration fee that was used to fund a local authority cycling department in a similar manner to how dog licencing funds local authority animal control.

seamus

liamog wrote: »

I am pointing out that the argument "system expensive" is invalid based on the existence of another system operating currently in Ireland.

Not really though. The existence of another such system doesn't mean it's not expensive; i.e. costing more to run than it actually gathers.

magicbastarder

anyway of *course* a system should be maintained, even if it costs more to administer than it takes in in revenue, if the process of licencing serves a purpose other than raising revenue. i don't know of any particular reason that licencing bikes is worth it beyond that though.

oisinog

liamog wrote: »

I'm not suggesting we should

Liam we are not getting at you as you dont agree with the proposal that some people here are suggesting.

Again expense in not the sole reason just one of them, we know we have existing problems with people paying the tax and insurance on cars.

Taxing and insuring bike (to be fair the price of bikes some people own are mad not to get some supplementary insurance either through cycling Ireland membership or home insurance) is not currently viable.

People calling for it have issues with cyclists and really using tax and insurace as a stick to beat us with.

liamog

magicbastarder wrote: »

i don't know of any particular reason that licencing bikes is worth it beyond that though.

Exactly, the only reason I can think to register bike ownership is to aid in the recovery of stolen bikes, and to feed data into local authorities, both of which have questionable value.

oisinog

liamog wrote: »

Exactly, the only reason I can think to register bike ownership is to aid in the recovery of stolen bikes, and to feed data into local authorities, both of which have questionable value.

That I agree with and as far as I know thanks to this earlier thead this is ready available.

Tony EH

oisinog wrote: »

I have yet to see a rational argument to why Cyclists should be taxed and insured.

There is no rational argument involved. It constantly circles back to the dumb and bitter notion of "I just want cyclists to pay something".

oisinog wrote: »

Here is the catch 22 situation if you took me off my bike and put me into a car your journey would take longer due to the increase in traffic. Insurance would increase as there would be more accidents and tax would probably have to increase to make more roads.

And then you'll see the same posters pissing and moaning in threads with titles like "It took me 90 minutes to drive 10k", "Can't get anywhere on the roads", or "Crazy traffic jams"...yadda, yadda, yadda.

The simple fact is more people on bicycles is a benefit to everyone, including the people in their cars.

Thelonious Monk

Tony EH wrote: »

And then you'll see the same posters pissing and moaning in threads with titles like "It took me 90 minutes to drive 10k", "Can't get anywhere on the roads", or "Crazy traffic jams"...yadda, yadda, yadda.

The simple fact is more people on bicycles is a benefit to everyone, including the people in their cars.

No these people who moan like that are already on every article about cycle lanes etc saying things like "Keegan is destroying the city wait till it opens up again there'll be traffic chaos the quays have been ruined" etc.
So they'll be blaming the gridlock in the city centre on the very few changes that have been made in favour of cyclists. They'll always find ammunition.

doiredoire

liamog wrote: »

An average petrol car emit's about 1.5 tonnes of CO2 per year, your looking at around 2 tonnes extra during the production of an EV versus an ICE vehicle. The payoff for the extra production is usually within the first 18 to 24 months.

The main reason we still apply tax to EVs in Ireland, is that we do not pay road tax. We pay tax on owning a vehicle that is used on public roads, the tax then goes into general taxation. It used to be ringfenced for local government, but nowadays it just goes into the regular pool.

Not that I agree with any requirement to tax cyclists, but for all the naysayers who claim the system wouldn't work. We manage to successfully tax dog ownership so I'm not sure why bicycles would be any different. At least the bicycle won't attack you when you try to enforce payment

No we have not managed to successfully tax dog ownership. The vast majority of people don’t pay the tax and the authorities know it is not cost effective in chasing the tax.

swarlb

Lets just say for argument sake that the Govt decide to put a 'road tax' on bike and the same with insurance.
How would it work...
1. Would EVERY bike incur a tax, from child's bike bought as a Christmas present to a top of the range model costing several thousand.
2. Would there be 'exemptions' for certain bikes, for example a racing bike for use on a track, or the previously mentioned child bike, that most likely will never leave the back yard.
3. How would they decide the cost ? Cars are easy, as they have engine size/emissions regulation to base it on. Or a simple €50 a year regardless, for example.
4. Would it follow that because cyclists are paying a road tax, then they are going to deserve even more provisions then they have as present. More cycle lanes, absolute enforcement of overtaking by cars etc.
5. Would it follow there will need to be a licence provision, plus possibly a yearly roadworthy test.
6. Would 'commercial' bikes, those used for business purposes, have a different rate of tax.


So, assuming all this is in place.... will the OP and others, be happy ?? .... I somehow doubt it....

mrslancaster

Just came across this thread.
We have both car & bicycle users in our household so I'm not in one camp over the other. Have to say that I always thought motor tax was actually a road tax, ie you have to pay it to drive a car on the public roads. Otherwise why can you declare a car 'off the road' & not pay it?

zerosugarbuzz

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

No these people who moan like that are already on every article about cycle lanes etc saying things like "Keegan is destroying the city wait till it opens up again there'll be traffic chaos the quays have been ruined" etc.
So they'll be blaming the gridlock in the city centre on the very few changes that have been made in favour of cyclists. They'll always find ammunition.

No it true. I don’t have a problem with all cyclists. I have a problem with reckless cyclists, racers, and people with an inadequate knowledge of the rules of the road and basic self safety techniques. Insurance, testing, bike tax etc would go a long way to putting manners on these.

zerosugarbuzz

mrslancaster wrote: »

Just came across this thread.
We have both car & bicycle users in our household so I'm not in one camp over the other. Have to say that I always thought motor tax was actually a road tax, ie you have to pay it to drive a car on the public roads. Otherwise why can you declare a car 'off the road' & not pay it?

And drive it as much as you want on your own private land.

MrStuffins

zerosugarbuzz wrote: »

No it true. I don’t have a problem with all cyclists. I have a problem with reckless cyclists, racers, and people with an inadequate knowledge of the rules of the road and basic self safety techniques. Insurance, testing, bike tax etc would go a long way to putting manners on these.

So you want force more people to contribute to a corrupt taxation system, and also force more people to be victims of the insurance cartels............ to teach people manners? :pac:

oisinog

zerosugarbuzz wrote: »

No it true. I don’t have a problem with all cyclists. I have a problem with reckless cyclists, racers, and people with an inadequate knowledge of the rules of the road and basic self safety techniques. Insurance, testing, bike tax etc would go a long way to putting manners on these.

Well once car drivers meet this they by all means move on to cyclists, car drivers create most collisions on the road not cyclists

km991148

zerosugarbuzz wrote: »

No it true. I don’t have a problem with all cyclists. I have a problem with reckless cyclists, racers, and people with an inadequate knowledge of the rules of the road and basic self safety techniques. Insurance, testing, bike tax etc would go a long way to putting manners on these.

Yeah, because the standard of driving in Ireland shows that is an effective way of going about it...

And before anyone accuses me if whataboutary let me put it in simple terms. I dispute that there is such a serious problem with cyclists (of course there are some arseholes out there) but let's assume there is:

I further challenge the assertion that taxing them will have the desired effect (of correcting behaviour) - we have such systems in place already (for other vehicles).

It will more than likely make traffic worse, there will be fewer journeys by bicycle, more single driver vehicles and a longer term detrimental impact on our health system and environment.

MrStuffins

swarlb wrote: »

So, assuming all this is in place.... will the OP and others, be happy ?? .... I somehow doubt it....

You just have to look at the posting history of some of the people on this thread to get an answer there. Or some of the comments about cyclists jumping red lights and how some want to force them to be insured because they have no manners...................

This isn't about cyclists. It's about moany gits being moany gits. They're moany gits about everything and would moan about everything else if cyclists were made pay tax.

They'd probably want a "Woke Tax", a tax on people having progressive ideas.

mrslancaster

swarlb wrote: »

Lets just say for argument sake that the Govt decide to put a 'road tax' on bike and the same with insurance.
How would it work...
1. Would EVERY bike incur a tax, from child's bike bought as a Christmas present to a top of the range model costing several thousand.
2. Would there be 'exemptions' for certain bikes, for example a racing bike for use on a track, or the previously mentioned child bike, that most likely will never leave the back yard.
3. How would they decide the cost ? Cars are easy, as they have engine size/emissions regulation to base it on. Or a simple €50 a year regardless, for example.
4. Would it follow that because cyclists are paying a road tax, then they are going to deserve even more provisions then they have as present. More cycle lanes, absolute enforcement of overtaking by cars etc.
5. Would it follow there will need to be a licence provision, plus possibly a yearly roadworthy test.
6. Would 'commercial' bikes, those used for business purposes, have a different rate of tax.


So, assuming all this is in place.... will the OP and others, be happy ?? .... I somehow doubt it....

anything possible as far as tax is concerned. The total motor tax collected went down according to figures published up to 2016. If more cycle tracks, bike parking etc are provided all over the country someone has to pay for it.

km991148

I say it again, anyone who only drives and lives in a town or city should be thankful when they see a cyclist.

Not thinking 'what a cnut..' (unless they are also one, of course..)

km991148

MrStuffins wrote: »

You just have to look at the posting history of some of the people on this thread to get an answer there. Or some of the comments about cyclists jumping red lights and how some want to force them to be insured because they have no manners...................

This isn't about cyclists. It's about moany gits being moany gits. They're moany gits about everything and would moan about everything else if cyclists were made pay tax.

They'd probably want a "Woke Tax", a tax on people having progressive ideas.

Well.. it is boards.ie.. a byword for moanygits.ie.. :pac:

mrslancaster

zerosugarbuzz wrote: »

And drive it as much as you want on your own private land.

What does this mean?

Of course you could drive it on your own private land so then it must be a road tax even though it's called a motor tax.

harmless

km991148 wrote: »

I say it again, anyone who only drives and lives in a town or city should be thankful when they see a cyclist.

Not thinking 'what a cnut..' (unless they are also one, of course..)

The same people who close pass a cyclist to get to the red light faster or maybe even cut 10 seconds off their journey are the same people wishing more people would drive so there would be more traffic jams.

Thelonious Monk

zerosugarbuzz wrote: »

No it true. I don’t have a problem with all cyclists. I have a problem with reckless cyclists, racers, and people with an inadequate knowledge of the rules of the road and basic self safety techniques. Insurance, testing, bike tax etc would go a long way to putting manners on these.

Well none of that's ever going to happen. You lose.

AndrewJRenko

zerosugarbuzz wrote: »

No it true. I don’t have a problem with all cyclists. I have a problem with reckless cyclists, racers, and people with an inadequate knowledge of the rules of the road and basic self safety techniques. Insurance, testing, bike tax etc would go a long way to putting manners on these.

Doesn't seem to have worked in putting manners on the 98% of drivers that break urban speed limits or the majority of drivers who use their phones while driving.

Do you have a problem with the 98% of drivers that break urban speed limits?

dinneenp

Is this next?
https://twitter.com/theferocity/status/1384466973610872837?s=20

namloc1980

zerosugarbuzz wrote: »

No it true. I don’t have a problem with all cyclists. I have a problem with reckless cyclists, racers, and people with an inadequate knowledge of the rules of the road and basic self safety techniques. Insurance, testing, bike tax etc would go a long way to putting manners on these.

So much anger. Hope you don't get as angry behind the wheel of a vehicle - could be dangerous.

harmless

I don't want to get into a discussion about helmets as it's not really the point I am trying to make(just using it as an example) but something as simple as mandatory helmet laws in Australia has discouraged people from cycling. Many cities there have massive traffic issues and they decided to spend money on making it worse. Should Ireland go down the a similar path?

Is allowing cyclists use the roads without extra tax not worth it for shorter commute times for everyone?

AndrewJRenko

mrslancaster wrote: »

anything possible as far as tax is concerned. The total motor tax collected went down according to figures published up to 2016. If more cycle tracks, bike parking etc are provided all over the country someone has to pay for it.

And if more roads and nonsense projects like this are being built, then motorists and only motorists should pay for it, right?

https://twitter.com/OConnorOisin/status/1384513554703921153?s=19