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US Police killing of 13 year old Adam Toledo

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    #482
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,892 ✭✭✭Christy42


    Effects wrote: »
    You seemed to be saying that someone without a gun, doing nothing wrong, would behave the same way as a kid who has a gun, and running from the police would.

    I mean they probably would. You seen most 13 year olds getting shouted at by a teacher? They act guilty whether or not they are. Heck watch most adults walk through a metal detector nervous as anything else in spite of knowing they have nothing on them.


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    #483
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,098 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Effects wrote: »
    You seemed to be saying that someone without a gun, doing nothing wrong, would behave the same way as a kid who has a gun, and running from the police would.

    If you're a black teen in Chicago you probably would, given police history of violence there.


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    #484
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,762 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    volchitsa wrote: »
    If you're a black teen in Chicago you probably would, given police history of violence there.

    If you are a black teen in Chicago, you are far, far, far more likely to be killed by another black person who is not a member of the police force.


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    #485
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,123 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    You are sounding very naive to be honest.

    Yes, not everyone that a cop stops is going to shoot at them, but the cop has to be prepared for that eventuality. That's the reality of the job in the US.

    You may get the fact that the gun was empty out of your head. That's irrelevant because the cop had no way of knowing that. The cop would be quite right in that scenario to assume that the gun was loaded.

    Yes, the kid was unarmed when the cop fired. The most pertinent question to ask is how much time elapsed between the kid dropping the gun and the cop firing. Can you answer that question?
    "Prepared" isnt shoot first and realise your mistake afterwards though.

    Its not irrelevant that the gun was empty or that the victim had dropped it, if the cop had take the extra 2 seconds he would have seen the empty hands and could have taken the victim into custody rather than have to start CPR.

    Put it this way, do you reckon right now the cop would have preferred to take the extra 2 seconds or not?

    We know the time taken between dropping and firing, its under 1 second.
    You attribute that time to the victim dropping the gun late, I to the cop firing early. He was the one who made the fateful decision to shoot, no one else.


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    #486
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,123 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Effects wrote: »
    You seemed to be saying that someone without a gun, doing nothing wrong, would behave the same way as a kid who has a gun, and running from the police would.

    You havent seen the dozens of people who have been shot for holding sandwiches or wallets etc, ordinary everyday items that cops mistook for a gun and shot the person?


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    #487
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    golfball37 wrote: »
    13 year olds with guns there’s a good chance something awful is gonna happen in their life. No excuse for what police did but in America you run that risk when you veer towards crime and guns unlike 99% of your peers
    It sound like he got involved with Latin Kings gang and things went downwards from there.
    The Latin King gang is one of the most violent gangs in the United States today, with leaders unafraid to order "hits" on law enforcement and correctional officers with followers unashamed to obey their orders. The history of this gang is written in blood, with episodes so bizarre that they read like chapters from a pulp fiction novel.
    https://www.gangenforcement.com/latin-kings.html

    ?u=https%3A%2F%2Fstorage.googleapis.com%2Fafs-prod%2Fmedia%2Fmedia%3A88939336dcf14618ab52376098833536%2F800.jpeg&f=1&nofb=1


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    #488
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭Effects


    Christy42 wrote: »
    I mean they probably would. You seen most 13 year olds getting shouted at by a teacher? They act guilty whether or not they are. Heck watch most adults walk through a metal detector nervous as anything else in spite of knowing they have nothing on them.

    Your post doesn't make sense.


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    #489
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭Effects


    GreeBo wrote: »
    You attribute that time to the victim dropping the gun late, I to the cop firing early. He was the one who made the fateful decision to shoot, no one else.

    And the kid was the one who made the decision to take part in a shooting, and then run from police with the gun.


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    #490
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭Effects


    GreeBo wrote: »
    You havent seen the dozens of people who have been shot for holding sandwiches or wallets etc, ordinary everyday items that cops mistook for a gun and shot the person?

    And I guess you haven't seen the dozens of times that suspects point a gun at a police officer and start shooting at them.


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    #491
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,098 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    If you are a black teen in Chicago, you are far, far, far more likely to be killed by another black person who is not a member of the police force.

    Probably true, but not relevant to the point about how an unarmed black kid might react to being chased by armed cops.


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    #492
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,892 ✭✭✭Christy42


    Effects wrote: »
    Your post doesn't make sense.

    People panic under scrutiny. Adults and children. This includes if they have nothing to hide they still panic. Obviously a metal detector is a mild example but I am not confident in my ability to think straight with a gun pointed at me. I do not wish to find out either.


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    #493
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭Effects


    Christy42 wrote: »
    People panic under scrutiny. Adults and children. This includes if they have nothing to hide they still panic.

    But the situation here wasn't an innocent kid. It was a kid who had just been involved in a shooting, running away with the gun, and then attempting to hide that gun.
    Might have been panic as you say, but that doesn't change the outcome unfortunately.


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    #494
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    volchitsa wrote: »
    If you're a black teen in Chicago you probably would, given police history of violence there.
    BattleCorp wrote: »
    If you are a black teen in Chicago, you are far, far, far more likely to be killed by another black person who is not a member of the police force.
    Adam Toledo wasn't black. He was Latino.


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    #495
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    GreeBo wrote: »
    "Prepared" isnt shoot first and realise your mistake afterwards though.

    Its not irrelevant that the gun was empty or that the victim had dropped it, if the cop had take the extra 2 seconds he would have seen the empty hands and could have taken the victim into custody rather than have to start CPR.

    Put it this way, do you reckon right now the cop would have preferred to take the extra 2 seconds or not?

    We know the time taken between dropping and firing, its under 1 second.
    You attribute that time to the victim dropping the gun late, I to the cop firing early. He was the one who made the fateful decision to shoot, no one else.

    All the cop saw was gun in hand, then hand coming up.
    The kid hid the drop from cop with his body.
    The kid should have dropped it in plain view.

    That was the fateful decision. Also being out with a gun in the first place.


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    #496
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,123 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Effects wrote: »
    And I guess you haven't seen the dozens of times that suspects point a gun at a police officer and start shooting at them.

    I have, but with the risk of repeating myself, that didn't happen here, the police shouldn't execute people on the basis of what they might do OR if they do then in situations like this, where clearly there was no threat, they should be done for murder.

    The presumption is innocence in the courtroom, why is it not in the streets? But pointless having to survive a police encounter before people start presuming your innocence.


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    #497
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    GreeBo wrote: »
    I... where clearly there was no threat, ....

    You reckon meeting a teen with a gun down an alley at night, is no threat.


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    #498
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,762 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    biko wrote: »
    Adam Toledo wasn't black. He was Latino.

    Yep, I know that. I was replying to someone who was talking about cops shooting black teens in Chicago.


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    #499
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,135 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    biko wrote: »
    It sound like he got involved with Latin Kings gang and things went downwards from there.


    https://www.gangenforcement.com/latin-kings.html

    ?u=https%3A%2F%2Fstorage.googleapis.com%2Fafs-prod%2Fmedia%2Fmedia%3A88939336dcf14618ab52376098833536%2F800.jpeg&f=1&nofb=1

    So you could say just about anyone police kill in Chicago might be a gangbanger eh. Convenient.


  • Options
    #500
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,135 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    Of course he only had a split second. How much longer do you think it take for an armed person facing away from you to shoot at you?

    Timing examples.

    https://www.forcescience.org/2020/01/you-dont-have-to-shoot-first-but-you-better-do-something/



    or

    https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/blog/response-time-human-factors-self-defense-shooting/



    Basically the only way for the officer to ensure his safety in this scenario would be to decide that the rapid turn is the initiating event for the shooting. Waiting for the turn to be completed and then evaluating it would automatically surrender the initiative to the suspect who was already known to be armed.

    What the kid knew, intended, should have known, could have done, may have interpreted, etc, is all irrelevant to the simple fact that it takes longer to evaluate and react to a threat than it takes for the threat to kill you. Acting in a manner which results in the perception of a lethal threat is legal grounds for a lethal shooting. End of story.

    No, he had a whole lot of seconds to think about the situation during that run.


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    #501
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,762 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Put it this way, do you reckon right now the cop would have preferred to take the extra 2 seconds or not?

    Do I think the cop should have taken an extra 2 seconds or not........absolutely not. It's easy to criticise in hindsight, but the cop had less than a second to decide if he was in danger or not. Waiting 2 seconds before firing would have given the kid time to shoot him if that's what he was planning. As it turns out, that's not what the kid was planning but how was the cop to know that?
    We know the time taken between dropping and firing, its under 1 second.
    You attribute that time to the victim dropping the gun late, I to the cop firing early. He was the one who made the fateful decision to shoot, no one else.

    In such circumstances where there was less than a second to potentially kill or be killed, I'll stick with siding with the cop in this case.

    Dont' get me wrong, I feel sorry for the kid, but play stupid games and win stupid prizes.


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    #502
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Overheal wrote: »
    No, he had a whole lot of seconds to think about the situation during that run.

    ..and he didn't shoot the suspect at that time as a result. The Kid had every chance to drop the gun on that run, but chose to do it at the worst possible time.


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    #503
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,135 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    beauf wrote: »
    ..and he didn't shoot the suspect at that time as a result. The Kid had every chance to drop the gun on that run, but chose to do it at the worst possible time.

    And the cop chose to shoot. Again, at the worse possible time.

    Can't prosecute the dead body on the ground. Do have a cop who fired at an unarmed suspect though, in reaction to seeing their hands as ordered.


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    #504
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Overheal wrote: »
    And the cop chose to shoot. Again, at the worse possible time.

    Can't prosecute the dead body on the ground. Do have a cop who fired at an unarmed suspect though, in reaction to seeing their hands as ordered.

    No the worse possible time would have been in the back with no warning. Lots of opportunity to do that, and didn't do it.
    Cop didn't know the suspect was unarmed because the suspect didn't drop the gun in plain sight.
    Suspect was warned and choose to make a sudden movement and hide his intentions with the gun.


  • Options
    #505
    Pa ElGrande
    Registered Users Posts: 3,510 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    Overheal wrote: »
    So you could say just about anyone police kill in Chicago might be a gangbanger eh. Convenient.

    You are ignoring context of the situation in Chicago. If you want a case of brutality by American police that is hard to defend, here is one particular incident for you to chew over. Viewer discretion advised.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9rOWDrRQxU


    Loveland Police said Thursday the department just learned about an alleged incident of excessive force involving a 73-year-old woman with dementia that happened nearly a year ago when body camera footage of the incident was posted on its Facebook page.

    A Loveland attorney filed a federal civil rights lawsuit on behalf of Karen Garner, the woman in the video. The lawsuit alleges that she was injured after being forced to the ground by a Loveland Police officer.

    Her crime? The lawsuit suggests she attempted to leave a Walmart with less than $14 worth of items she forgot to purchase.

    The lawsuit says Garner suffered a dislocated shoulder, a broken humerus and a sprained wrist during the arrest.

    This is the raw, unedited video


    In the case of Karen Garner above, there was absolutely no need to make an arrest. In a more reasonable world, at most Garner would have received a citation for her alleged attempt at petty theft.

    It’s a little hard to comply with police orders when one isn’t even given the chance to do so. Some are shot even while in the act of complying with police orders and if that is a chaotic situation then judgement generally favours the police and in general American police are well-paid, nearly impossible-to-fire, legally immune, and unionised government employees.


    Here is another case from September 2020 last year showing the shooting of Linden Cameron.


    Warning: Viewer discretion advised a person is shot multiple times.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ2DZR7mG9s



    Mom Frustrated With SLC DA Office Over Lack Of Decision In Son’s Shooting
    On Sept. 4, Linden was shot by an officer 11 times as he was running away. It’s not clear in body cam videos what prompted the officer to shoot, but police were responding to a mental health episode and believed Linden could be violent.

    Barton said Linden, now 14, has had multiple surgeries and lost function of his hand

    source

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Options
    #506
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,123 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    Do I think the cop should have taken an extra 2 seconds or not........absolutely not.
    Thanks, but thats not the question I asked you.
    BattleCorp wrote: »
    It's easy to criticise in hindsight, but the cop had less than a second to decide if he was in danger or not. Waiting 2 seconds before firing would have given the kid time to shoot him if that's what he was planning.
    I already clarified this, he didnt had less than a second, he choose to take less than a second before shooting the victim. As we all know at this stage, the victim was unarmed after disposing of an empty gun.
    BattleCorp wrote: »
    As it turns out, that's not what the kid was planning but how was the cop to know that?
    Is this honestly a serious question? You are basically saying that cops are justified in shooting innocent people because they couldnt be sure they were innocent at the time? Seriously? So you will be 100% A-OK if you get shot in the US because a cop thought you were suspicious and maybe about to shoot him, even if it turns out you were only holding a French baguette and a salami?

    BattleCorp wrote: »
    In such circumstances where there was less than a second to potentially kill or be killed, I'll stick with siding with the cop in this case.
    Potentially.
    Potentially anyone could kill a cop.
    BattleCorp wrote: »
    Dont' get me wrong, I feel sorry for the kid, but play stupid games and win stupid prizes.

    Same applies for the cop, dont take the time to evaluate the situation, expect to win a free holiday, courtesy of the state.


  • Options
    #507
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,123 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    beauf wrote: »
    No the worse possible time would have been in the back with no warning. Lots of opportunity to do that, and didn't do it.
    Cop didn't know the suspect was unarmed because the suspect didn't drop the gun in plain sight.
    Suspect was warned and choose to make a sudden movement and hide his intentions with the gun.

    Please explain how the current situation would be any different if the cop had just shot him in the back?
    Dead kid? - Check.
    Excuses made for cop?- Check.
    Kid blamed for being gang banger? - Check.


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    #508
    Potential-Monke
    Registered Users Posts: 13,874 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    Part of the reason I don't usually get involved in these threads is because of 30 odd pages in 2 days. But I went through them, and a couple of points I noted.

    Greebo and Overheal, ye refer to whataboutery when people are talking about what the cop may have been thinking, but ye then go on to use whataboutery for the suspect. Ye are not acknowledging the limited facts available. At the time, there was no way of knowing the age of the suspect, only that he was a potentially armed suspect who was involved in the discharge of a firearm, and a description. When someone matches that description starts running, you rightly suspect (as a cop) that they are indeed the person you're looking for (why else would they run*). He gave clear directions, "stop" and "show your hands". The suspect (I'm not calling him a kid, because at the time he was a suspect, not a kid) did eventually stop, and turned around while dropping the gun, which due to his angle of turning and dropping the gun does look like someone who could be turning to aim. In a city where homicide is rife, gun crime is at an all time high and is the homicide capital of America, it's not a situation any of us will ever find ourselves in.

    My first post on the first page of this thread agreed it was murder, but after more facts have come to light, the cop will not be found guilty imo. He followed procedure, he made a decision which was 50/50. As others have said, the suspect could have just have easily turned around to shoot. Ye make excuses that the 13 year old wasn't old/mature enough to follow the directions clearly and turned around when he wasn't supposed to, but ye don't hold the same to the cop who reacted as I guess any cop would have in that situation. If you live in America, and you don't know how to react to cops at this stage, it's just pure ignorance imo. If the cop waited any longer, and the suspect was turning to shoot him, there'd be a dead cop and no thread. Actually, there might have been, because he would have been shot by one of the other cops in the area if he had shot a cop first.

    I'm gonna bow out here, simply because I'm not going to read another 30 pages by the time I care to check on this again. Some people on here have their minds made up regardless of facts, and that's on both sides. No point debating any longer. Only time and a court case, if it makes it to court, will tell. But from my own 9 years experience of law enforcement (granted, in Ireland so not as dangerous, but still gives me a somewhat better insight into how these things play out, imo), I can't see the cop getting found guilty here.

    None of this will solve the gun problem in America, and that's what it all boils down to. Cops have a right to protect themselves just as much as civilians have. The age of the suspect didn't matter at the time, and shouldn't matter after the fact. With alleged ties to one of the biggest gangs in Chicago, it was probably only a matter of time anyway. And it's not as big a problem as people make out, I did the sums a few pages back, and something like 0.012% of reported crimes end in death by cop. That's a good figure in a place rife with guns and an alleged out of control trigger happy police force. But it doesn't fit the narrative.

    Also, link to Wikipedia showing the amount of firearm related deaths per country. America is not at the top... (You may need to filter by Homicide): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate


  • Options
    #509
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Please explain how the current situation would be any different if the cop had just shot him in the back?
    Dead kid? - Check.
    Excuses made for cop?- Check.
    Kid blamed for being gang banger? - Check.

    How would have been different if he'd shot the cop and perhaps others.

    Excuses made for a kids with guns in the middle of the night - Check
    Excuses made for criminal behavior - Check
    Excuses made for illegal guns - Check
    Sweeping generalizations about all cops - Check


  • Options
    #510
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,892 ✭✭✭Christy42


    Potential-Monke wrote: »
    Part of the reason I don't usually get involved in these threads is because of 30 odd pages in 2 days. But I went through them, and a couple of points I noted.

    Greebo and Overheal, ye refer to whataboutery when people are talking about what the cop may have been thinking, but ye then go on to use whataboutery for the suspect. Ye are not acknowledging the limited facts available. At the time, there was no way of knowing the age of the suspect, only that he was a potentially armed suspect who was involved in the discharge of a firearm, and a description. When someone matches that description starts running, you rightly suspect (as a cop) that they are indeed the person you're looking for (why else would they run*). He gave clear directions, "stop" and "show your hands". The suspect (I'm not calling him a kid, because at the time he was a suspect, not a kid) did eventually stop, and turned around while dropping the gun, which due to his angle of turning and dropping the gun does look like someone who could be turning to aim. In a city where homicide is rife, gun crime is at an all time high and is the homicide capital of America, it's not a situation any of us will ever find ourselves in.

    My first post on the first page of this thread agreed it was murder, but after more facts have come to light, the cop will not be found guilty imo. He followed procedure, he made a decision which was 50/50. As others have said, the suspect could have just have easily turned around to shoot. Ye make excuses that the 13 year old wasn't old/mature enough to follow the directions clearly and turned around when he wasn't supposed to, but ye don't hold the same to the cop who reacted as I guess any cop would have in that situation. If you live in America, and you don't know how to react to cops at this stage, it's just pure ignorance imo. If the cop waited any longer, and the suspect was turning to shoot him, there'd be a dead cop and no thread. Actually, there might have been, because he would have been shot by one of the other cops in the area if he had shot a cop first.

    I'm gonna bow out here, simply because I'm not going to read another 30 pages by the time I care to check on this again. Some people on here have their minds made up regardless of facts, and that's on both sides. No point debating any longer. Only time and a court case, if it makes it to court, will tell. But from my own 9 years experience of law enforcement (granted, in Ireland so not as dangerous, but still gives me a somewhat better insight into how these things play out, imo), I can't see the cop getting found guilty here.

    None of this will solve the gun problem in America, and that's what it all boils down to. Cops have a right to protect themselves just as much as civilians have. The age of the suspect didn't matter at the time, and shouldn't matter after the fact. With alleged ties to one of the biggest gangs in Chicago, it was probably only a matter of time anyway. And it's not as big a problem as people make out, I did the sums a few pages back, and something like 0.012% of reported crimes end in death by cop. That's a good figure in a place rife with guns and an alleged out of control trigger happy police force. But it doesn't fit the narrative.

    Also, link to Wikipedia showing the amount of firearm related deaths per country. America is not at the top... (You may need to filter by Homicide): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

    Is better than El Salvador meant to be an achievement?

    I do like the line "if you live in America and don't know how to deal with cops". Doesn't shine a great line on them if they are to be considered a constant danger. Near as I can tell you should treat them the same as any random nutter with a weapon on you. Remember everyone on the streets needs to be able to act calmer than the police because the next few seconds have consequences for you, not them.

    The line "In a city where homicide is rife, gun crime is at an all time high and is the homicide capital of America, it's not a situation any of us will ever find ourselves in. " is not exactly a great vote of confidence for the police force there either. Indeed it should be considered a point of shame there and a reason for reform. But hey lets keep doing the same thing and hope it gets better.


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    #511
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,276 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Is this honestly a serious question? You are basically saying that cops are justified in shooting innocent people because they couldnt be sure they were innocent at the time? Seriously? So you will be 100% A-OK if you get shot in the US because a cop thought you were suspicious and maybe about to shoot him, even if it turns out you were only holding a French baguette and a salami?

    They are justified in shooting people, innocent or not, if they are reasonably perceived as a threat to the safety of the cop or others.

    When interacting with a US cop, if I'm holding a French baguette and a salami, my actions are going to be pretty similar to when I'm not holding a French baguette and salami. They start with "Keep hands in plain sight and make no sudden and rapid moves". Remember, I've been pulled over by a cop when armed with an actual firearm, not just a baguette and salami. The difference between getting shot and not getting shot was what I did to not present the appearance of a threat.

    The "reasonable man" standard is a thing in both US and Irish jurisdictions. It is by definition not a hard standard. Over the last few weeks and months we have seen incidents of police actions which would appear to fail the 'reasonable' standard, but the case of Adam Toledo is not one of them.


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