US Police killing of 13 year old Adam Toledo

Fandymo

breezy1985 wrote: »

Ya your right. Deserved to die for that

No one said that. Why can’t you argue the facts rather than making stuff up?

Pa ElGrande

Chicago Police have released the body camera footage of the police shooting death of armed teen, Adam Toledo, who was known in gang circles as "Lil' Homicide" and "Bvby Diablo." https://vimeo.com/536331629

source

Warning. Viewer discretion advised, the video which has already been linked on this thread shows the shooting dead of a person.

LillySV

Carrying a gun and had it ready...proper action taken, end of .

Seen plenty of vids of cops getting shot in US because they didn’t act quick enough...

If I was a cop and a guy has a gun out and hasn’t been listening to my commands up to that point I wouldn’t think twice

Pa ElGrande

LillySV wrote: »

Carrying a gun and had it ready...proper action taken, end of .

. . .

That will be for the investigation to decide, right now we want to know the context of this shooting.

Perhaps one chilling, contributing factor can be found on a separate video, also released Thursday. It’s not the clip shown around the world, the final moments of Toledo’s short life. It is police body camera footage from around the corner as other officers confronted the 21-year-old man, Ruben Roman, who was with Toledo that night and allegedly fired shots at a passing car. That’s what drew police to the scene, prompting both of them to run.

Within minutes, Toledo was shot by an officer. And as he lay dying, the video shows Roman repeatedly telling police that he is an innocent bystander who doesn’t know anything.

“ ... I was just passing by. I was just on my way home,” he says.

No mention of what police later alleged, that he was seen on surveillance videos shooting at a car — with a kid at his side. This is the person 13-year-old Toledo trusted enough to be out at 2:30 a.m. on a Monday.

source

For those of you that don't know Chicago is the murder capital of the United States. I posted this previously.


Chicago Has Seen 700 Homicides, 3,000 Shootings Thus Far in 2020

Chicago ends 2020 with 769 homicides as gun violence surges

Chicago Sees 51 Homicides in January — Highest in 4 Years


The Chicago shootings are reported but have become regular news because they are a constant and because they occur daily just don’t get the headlines that “mass shootings” do. There are 365 days in a year, that's two murders a day. Handguns seem to be the weapon of choice, not all homicides in Chicago are with guns, knives and other implements are used as well (~100+ deaths). Guns don't magically drop from the sky and fire themselves, someone has to make a concious decision to pull the trigger. There is a pathology at work in that city that drives the demand for guns that goes something like this:

• Turf wars (defending territory used to sell drugs)
• Pride/Hubris (retaliation for either a real, or perceived, insult)
• Revenge killings (retaliation for #1 & #2 above)
• Proving manhood (an outgrowth of Pride/Hubris … I’m a big man, so, I can just pop off some rounds at anyone I want to)
• Domestic (cheating, money, …)
• Stupid accidents (leaving a loaded firearm around, playing with a loaded gun aka Darwin awards…)

wicklowstevo

https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/5-shot-1-fatally-since-friday-night-in-chicago

5 shootings and one murder in Chicago last night ,

its reported more like traffic updates there now.

Tell me how

Pa ElGrande wrote: »

That will be for the investigation to decide, right now we want to know the context of this shooting.





For those of you that don't know Chicago is the murder capital of the United States. I posted this previously.


Chicago Has Seen 700 Homicides, 3,000 Shootings Thus Far in 2020

Chicago ends 2020 with 769 homicides as gun violence surges

Chicago Sees 51 Homicides in January — Highest in 4 Years


The Chicago shootings are reported but have become regular news because they are a constant and because they occur daily just don’t get the headlines that “mass shootings” do. There are 365 days in a year, that's two murders a day. Handguns seem to be the weapon of choice, not all homicides in Chicago are with guns, knives and other implements are used as well (~100+ deaths). Guns don't magically drop from the sky and fire themselves, someone has to make a concious decision to pull the trigger. There is a pathology at work in that city that drives the demand for guns that goes something like this:

• Turf wars (defending territory used to sell drugs)
• Pride/Hubris (retaliation for either a real, or perceived, insult)
• Revenge killings (retaliation for #1 & #2 above)
• Proving manhood (an outgrowth of Pride/Hubris … I’m a big man, so, I can just pop off some rounds at anyone I want to)
• Domestic (cheating, money, …)
• Stupid accidents (leaving a loaded firearm around, playing with a loaded gun aka Darwin awards…)

wicklowstevo wrote: »

https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/5-shot-1-fatally-since-friday-night-in-chicago

5 shootings and one murder in Chicago last night ,

its reported more like traffic updates there now.

So, I take it that both you guys are adamant that something needs to be done about America's gun laws.
There is evidence that the majority of guns used in killings in Chicago are purchased legally in neighboring states.

It's already been discussed on these recent threads and I know no one who has an issue with the police killings is saying that such deaths are the only problem.

I've already said it on the thread here.

Tell me how wrote: »

He asked him to do something. The child did it. The officer shot him and killed him.

The end result is the same, America needs to take steps to prevent this happening. These steps, in my view, include A, reforming how police are trained and perform their duties, and B, reducing the presence of guns in society.

Anything else is just noise.

And posted a more detailed question within this post where I talk about the need for action including this bit here.

So, for those of a conservative mindset here (and don't tell me they don't exist, I see the same posters on threads on these topics (and others) where they are espousing the conservative position just as much as I'm sure you feel you see me arguing the case from a Dem standpoint), if you were President of America for 1 year, with a GOP leading Senate and House, what bill would you bring to the houses with a view to reducing the sense of fear and violence which is so common for so many in the country today.

So, what do you guys propose should be done in order to improve the situation in the US or are you just lamenting these deaths in Chicago now to detract from people talking about police killing people? It all comes across very much like the 'All Lives Matter' phrase that people only started using when support for Black Lives was in the news.

Pa ElGrande

Tell me how wrote: »

So, I take it that both you guys are adamant that something needs to be done about America's gun laws.
There is evidence that the majority of guns used in killings in Chicago are purchased legally in neighboring states.

. . .

We are now entering the era of the untraceable disposable gun (the so called ghost gun), which will be printed by criminals for the purpose of one hit and then disposed assuming they don't get caught in the act. Only a matter of time before we see this in the UK and Ireland. The reason for this innovation is being driven by the changes in the law that make gun ownership more restrictive and the culture "muh right to arm bears".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdSfiqusui4

There are laws governing the ownership and discharge of firearms, last I looked it's even illegal to murder someone. If everyone obeyed the law then we would not have this situation, if the existing laws don't help, adding more won't either and it will make criminals of more law abiding citizens seeking to protect themselves.


Every time you drive a car you are in charge of a loaded gun and you can run down any pedestrian, you can even use them to commit mass murder. Yet you don't do that, why don't you have an inclination to do this? What separates you from the person that does?


There is no simple relationship between firearm availability and crime, Denmark and Finland, Switzerland and Israel all have high gun ownership levels and have low crime levels, yet Japan and England have low ownership and relatively low levels of crime. The lack of availability of guns does not stop murders in London, but a sub-culture has developed that uses knives for that purpose.


You want to reduce the murders by gun or any other weapon then you need to change the mindset of the sub-culture involved such that you lose respect or honour among your peers when you do so. How that is achieved is another question. . . .

Overheal

Effects wrote: »

He didn't have it "ready".
It was most likely out of ammunition, and he was trying to dispose of it when he was shot.
Of course the police officer wasn't to know this, and took the action he felt was needed to protect himself.

By running up behind him at a full sprint..

wicklowstevo

Overheal wrote: »

By running up behind him at a full sprint..

your expertise and qualification as well as years of first hand experience in policing is again a shining light to each and every one of us who read a thread you contribute to.

Overheal

wicklowstevo wrote: »

your expertise and qualification as well as years of first hand experience in policing is again a shining light to each and every one of us who read a thread you contribute to.

Where’s yours? Experience, that is.

I don’t understand the point of your straw clutching. Maybe stick to the post than trying to attack others for not having experience you lack yourself.

Overheal

Effects wrote: »

He's trying to catch a suspect. Do you prefer suspect gunmen to shoot at police from a greater distance?

I know what you really want is a robodog cop, at 3mph, that has to turn around to go down stairs backwards.

Who was shooting at police? Let’s stick to what was actually happening.

Incidentally they are ranged weapons which have diminished accuracy as a function of their distance to target.

wicklowstevo

Overheal wrote: »

Where’s yours? Experience, that is.

I don’t understand the point of your straw clutching. Maybe stick to the post than trying to attack others for not having experience you lack yourself.

I m not claiming any unlike yourself

but might be your right

the last thing a 13 year old with a had gun would expect to meet in an ally at 3 am is a police officer responding to shots fired in what has become the most dangerous city in America

he shouldn't have startled the child, that's the real crime here isn't it ,

Overheal

wicklowstevo wrote: »

I m not claiming any unlike yourself

Please quote where this happened?

wicklowstevo

Overheal wrote: »

Please quote where this happened?

well I never :eek::eek: demands !!

your very fast making demands but very slow to answer when your called on stuff your self

so what do you think the cop should have done?

faced with a person of un known age armed with a handgun in a alley

you saw the gun right ? you know about the GSR or do you think he found it in the street and that gsr transfers like that ? was he on his way to hand it in ? ill homicide that is ? how does a 13 year old get a nickname like that I wonder ?

dead cops are just the cost of doing business right ?

Tell me how

wicklowstevo wrote: »

well I never :eek::eek: demands !!

your very fast making demands but very slow to answer when your called on stuff your self

so what do you think the cop should have done?

faced with a person of un known age armed with a handgun in a alley

you saw the gun right ? you know about the GSR or do you think he found it in the street and that gsr transfers like that ? was he on his way to hand it in ? ill homicide that is ? how does a 13 year old get a nickname like that I wonder ?

dead cops are just the cost of doing business right ?

He should have not been so trigger happy immediately after issuing an instruction. If he genuinely felt in fear of his life, he should have waited until he had support.

Ted_YNWA

wicklowstevo wrote: »

your expertise and qualification as well as years of first hand experience in policing is again a shining light to each and every one of us who read a thread you contribute to.

Overheal wrote: »

Where’s yours? Experience, that is.

I don’t understand the point of your straw clutching. Maybe stick to the post than trying to attack others for not having experience you lack yourself.

wicklowstevo wrote: »

I m not claiming any unlike yourself

but might be your right

the last thing a 13 year old with a had gun would expect to meet in an ally at 3 am is a police officer responding to shots fired in what has become the most dangerous city in America

he shouldn't have startled the child, that's the real crime here isn't it ,

Overheal wrote: »

Please quote where this happened?

wicklowstevo wrote: »

well I never :eek::eek: demands !!

your very fast making demands but very slow to answer when your called on stuff your self

so what do you think the cop should have done?

faced with a person of un known age armed with a handgun in a alley

you saw the gun right ? you know about the GSR or do you think he found it in the street and that gsr transfers like that ? was he on his way to hand it in ? ill homicide that is ? how does a 13 year old get a nickname like that I wonder ?

dead cops are just the cost of doing business right ?

Mod


Both of you take hours off this thread.

You need a break from each other & to calm down

Tell me how

Effects wrote: »

You're saying you don't think police should chase crime suspects. That's a fact.

The police officer was chasing down an armed suspect, who was part of a group that had just been shooting at a people in a car. That's a fact.

Adam Toledo ran from, and didn't comply with a police officer, and hid what he was doing with a gun. That's a fact.

And go on.....

The police officer caught up to him, told him to raise his hands, turn around and he shot him as he did so.

Still facts. The officer was not able to respond appropriately when someone complied with the instruction that that officer gave them. That is either an issue with the officer, or their training but in either case, it is unacceptable that the kid is dead as a consequence of this.

Uriel.

Tell me how wrote: »

And go on.....

The police officer caught up to him, told him to raise his hands, turn around and he shot him as he did so.

Still facts. The officer was not able to respond appropriately when someone complied with the instruction that that officer gave them. That is either an issue with the officer, or their training but in either case, it is unacceptable that the kid is dead as a consequence of this.

Most kids are home in bed at 2.30am.
This kid was running around with a gun and a gang banger. One or both of them were firing shots which caused the police to be alerted.
The kid is dead as a consequence of this.
If he was like most kids he'd be alive today.

I don't blame the cop.

Perhaps when cops are replaced with drones this may not happen, but they're not and I don't blame the officer involved in this incident.

Tell me how

Effects wrote: »

The kid was hiding what he was doing, and had a gun in his hand a second earlier. The police officer didn't have enough time in that split second to see that the kid no longer had the gun. It's not an easy decision to make in the heat of the moment.

The only thing that shortened that time was the cop making the decision to shoot.

When he asked the kid to do something, he should have been able to react appropriately when the kid did as was requested of him.

If the cop could not do this, then as Overheal has said, he should not have pursued the kid at all.

Tell me how

Effects wrote: »

Except everything the kid had done, up to that point, had been the opposite of what was requested of him.
Then after hiding his actions with a gun, he turned quickly towards the police officer. Which could have just as easily meant he was about to shoot.
That's the reality of what police have to deal with in the U.S.
And the risks people take when dealing with police.

Run away from the police here and all you risk is getting a few punches if they catch up to you.

So then you would think that police would be leading the call for meaningful gun control.

Is that the case?

Manic Moran

Tell me how wrote: »

The only thing that shortened that time was the cop making the decision to shoot.

When he asked the kid to do something, he should have been able to react appropriately when the kid did as was requested of him.

If the cop could not do this, then as Overheal has said, he should not have pursued the kid at all.

He said "show me your hands", not "turn around rapidly, momentarily hiding the one hand currently holding the gun, and then and show me your hands"

One is a far less threatening thing to do than the other, and OODA loops are a thing.

biko

What kind of place is Chicago when it enables 13year olds to be able to get guns?
It cannot have been through legal channels. Where do these illegal guns come from?

Christy42

Manic Moran wrote: »

He said "show me your hands", not "turn around rapidly, momentarily hiding the one hand currently holding the gun, and then and show me your hands"

One is a far less threatening thing to do than the other, and OODA loops are a thing.

It's incredible that a 13 year old is meant to react perfectly calmly and logically to being shouted at by a police officer while everything a supposedly trained police officer does explained away as understandable in the moment.

So in recent weeks we have had contradictory instructions to a driver who was informed they should be scared. A veteran police officer unable to figure out where their gun is and another one shooting a kid with their hands up. It can be a dangerous job admittedly given it recent weeks an officer was shot attempting to apprehend a cow.

At what point do people start to figure that something is not working here? This doesn't happen in other countries.

Littlehorny

biko wrote: »

What kind of place is Chicago when it enables 13year olds to be able to get guns?
It cannot have been through legal channels. Where do these illegal guns come from?

Exactly but a way too high proportion of Americans don't think they have a gun problem.

beauf

Christy42 wrote: »

It's incredible that a 13 year old is meant to react perfectly calmly and logically to being shouted at by a police officer while everything a supposedly trained police officer does explained away as understandable in the moment.

So in recent weeks we have had contradictory instructions to a driver who was informed they should be scared. A veteran police officer unable to figure out where their gun is and another one shooting a kid with their hands up. It can be a dangerous job admittedly given it recent weeks an officer was shot attempting to apprehend a cow.

At what point do people start to figure that something is not working here? This doesn't happen in other countries.

People of all ages react unreliably in high stress situations. It's human nature.

We've had our own issues with shootings in Ireland. Just not as often. So it does happen in other countries.

BloodBath

Christy42 wrote: »

It's incredible that a 13 year old is meant to react perfectly calmly and logically to being shouted at by a police officer while everything a supposedly trained police officer does explained away as understandable in the moment.

So in recent weeks we have had contradictory instructions to a driver who was informed they should be scared. A veteran police officer unable to figure out where their gun is and another one shooting a kid with their hands up. It can be a dangerous job admittedly given it recent weeks an officer was shot attempting to apprehend a cow.

At what point do people start to figure that something is not working here? This doesn't happen in other countries.

It's easy to justify it like that but whatever way you spin it this 13 year old kid was out hanging out with a 21 year old at 2am shooting guns in a dangerous city with high levels of gang culture and gun related homicides.

You can frame it whatever way you want but in the heat of the moment the cop felt his life was in danger and acted appropriately.

The kids parents let him down. Maybe not their fault either, maybe it's a single mother who works all the time and can't keep her son on a leash but that's not the cops fault either.

beauf

biko wrote: »

What kind of place is Chicago when it enables 13year olds to be able to get guns?
It cannot have been through legal channels. Where do these illegal guns come from?

What kinda place...

https://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/daily-southtown/ct-sta-calumet-city-shotspotter-st-0404-20180403-story.html

It's was used in this incident also.

Christy42

beauf wrote: »

People of all ages react unreliably in high stress situations. It's human nature.

We've had our own issues with shootings in Ireland. Just not as often. So it does happen in other countries.

I mean how many dodgy police killings have we had here? A guy charged at police with a machete. The US is at just under 35 people per 10 million killed by law enforcement (2019 data). France is at under 4 people (2018 data unsure of 2019).

Well if people react badly in stressful situations I am right in saying people can't blame the kid for not reacting perfectly in a high stress situation.


@Bloodbath, at this point maybe the police just shouldn't talk to anyone. They could have driven on and increased the odds of no one dying. They went after the kid (with reason) but if they are going to instantly think their lives are in danger there is little good they can do. Adam didn't react terribly to that situation so if that set off their danger warnings I have no idea how they expected to get out of that situation without shooting him.

Pa ElGrande

biko wrote: »

What kind of place is Chicago when it enables 13year olds to be able to get guns?
It cannot have been through legal channels. Where do these illegal guns come from?

He was hanging out with 21 year old Ruben Roman at 2:30AM, Mr Roman had the gun and left him holding the firearm when they ducked into the alleyway after discharging it 7 times. The 21 year old would not even identify him to the police so it took a number of days to contact his parents. There are ~3000 shooting incidents per annum in Chicago, there is a violent sub-culture in that city that has the motivation to use them. Once the motivation is there, the gun can be had - legal or not - even in Ireland.

Adam was holding the gun — that had previously been fired by Roman — when Adam was shot in the chest by a police officer, Assistant State’s Attorney James Murphy said. The officer had repeatedly told Adam to drop the gun before police shot him, Murphy said.

“If [Roman] does not bring [Adam] with him at 2:30 in the morning, if he doesn’t bring his gun with him while on gun offender probation, if he doesn’t shoot that gun seven or eight times on a city street with [Adam] standing right next to him . . . and then fleeing with that gun, none of this would have happened,” Murphy said.

Roman now faces felony charges of reckless discharge of a firearm and unlawful use of a weapon by a felon, as well as child endangerment and violating probation.

Prosecutors said nearby surveillance video captured the moment Roman fired shots early on the morning of March 29 at a passing vehicle while Adam stood next to him at 24th Street and Sawyer Avenue.

<snip>

Prosecutors indicated the Ruger 9 mm handgun that fell from Adam’s hand had previously been used by Roman. It matched the seven shell casings that were later recovered at the site where Roman fired the initial shots, Murphy said.

Adam’s hand later tested positive for gunshot residue as well, prosecutors said.

source

beauf

Christy42 wrote: »

I mean how many dodgy police killings have we had here? A guy charged at police with a machete. The US is at just under 35 people per 10 million killed by law enforcement (2019 data). France is at under 4 people (2018 data unsure of 2019).

Well if people react badly in stressful situations I am right in saying people can't blame the kid for not reacting perfectly in a high stress situation.


@Bloodbath, at this point maybe the police just shouldn't talk to anyone. They could have driven on and increased the odds of no one dying. They went after the kid (with reason) but if they are going to instantly think their lives are in danger there is little good they can do. Adam didn't react terribly to that situation so if that set off their danger warnings I have no idea how they expected to get out of that situation without shooting him.

You said it didn't happen elsewhere. It's obviously does.

If people are shooting nearby, and likely the person you are chasing. I'm not sure why you don't think that's dangerous and potentially life threatening situation. Indeed someone sadly lost their life.