US Police killing of 13 year old Adam Toledo

Overheal

They ordered him to show his hands, and for doing so, they killed him.

https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/police-release-graphic-body-cam-footage-showing-officer-killing-13-year-old-adam-toledo/?fbclid=IwAR0Wr9DTWwKFliWbnujMLrIdOhQBEEIFetXDqJJpAD4bn49L9YAk9O8gLEg

Chicago’s Civilian Office of Police Accountability released on Thursday body-cam video showing an officer shooting and killing 13-year-old Adam Toledo. We have embedded this vantage point above. Footage begins without audio, but this audio turns on at about the 1:58-mark, seconds before the fatal shooting.

As previously reported, an officer shot and killed Toledo early March 29. Police said they had been responding to a report of gunfire. Officers said they saw “two subjects in a nearby alley.” Cops said at the time that they recovered a gun from the scene.

As seen on video, the officer who opened fire drove to the scene, and hurried out of the vehicle. He ran past what seemed to be a bystander, and continued down the alleyway. He turned on the audio.

“Stop!” he said. “Stop right ****ing now.”

It’s at this moment that Toledo appeared to have his back to the officer.

“Hey, show me your ****ing hands!” said the officer.

Toledo turned. His hands were pointed up.

“Drop it!” said the officer. “Drop it!” He opened fire.

Law&Crime does not see a gun in Toledo’s hands at 2:05, the second the shooting occurred. After the shooting, police referred to this as an “armed confrontation” and said that a gun was recovered from the scene.

Before release of the video, (The link contains a copious number of angles and clips from different dashcams and bodycams, 911 calls etc, released by the department) the office of the Cook County State’s Attorney walked back a statement made by one of their prosecutors, who asserted Toledo had a gun in his right hand when he was shot.

Shoot first, ask questions later. From what you can see in the video the young boy complied to show the officer who ran up behind him his hands at gun point, the moment he showed the officer his hands the officer killed him. The officer was responding to a call of shots fired, he encounters 2 bystanders, the first he appears to grab or something briefly, before running down the alleyway more to find Toledo with his back initially toward him. The primary suspect, a 21 year old male, was already apprehended.

In any case I don't think this is acceptable use of force.

Earlier reports claimed that Toledo had a gun in his hand:

Roman, 21, was arrested shortly before noon Friday in the 1600 block of South 18th Avenue in Maywood, Illinois, in relation to a probation violation warrant. He is charged with felony reckless discharge of a firearm, felony unlawful use of a weapon by a felon, and felony endangerment of a child.

In a proffer, the Cook County State’s Attorney’s office said Roman was walking south on Sawyer Avenue toward 24th Street in Little Village at 2:36 a.m. Monday, March 29. Roman was wearing a gold Carhartt jacket and a gold shirt and dark pants, while Adam was wearing a navy blue hoodie, dark pants, and a white hat – and they could easily be told apart, prosecutors said.

Video from Farragut Career Academy High School showed Roman and Adam walking together, while a vehicle was seen heading down the street away from where they were. The video appears to show Ruben walk up to the corner and take a shooting stance, while Adam first starts to move back in the direction from which they came and then moves back toward Roman as Roman fires shots, prosecutors said.

Adam was next to Roman for a portion of time that Roman was firing shots, after which point Roman ran back the way they came – followed close behind by Adam, prosecutors said. A ShotSpotter alert recorded eight shots being fired, and a total of seven shell casings were found at the scene where Roman was shooting, prosecutors said.

After the shots were fired, Roman and Adam began running north on Sawyer Avenue and cut into a gangway at 2324 S. Sawyer Ave., prosecutors said. Two uniformed Chicago Police officers pulled up less than a minute after the shots were fired as Ruben and Adam fled in the alley, prosecutors said.

Both officers got out of their squad car and chased the pair down the alley, prosecutors said. Roman was taken to the ground first and one of the officers detained him as he dropped a pair of red gloves on the ground, prosecutors said. This was captured by the officer’s body camera, prosecutors said.

The gloves later tested positive for gunshot residue, prosecutors said.

As Roman was being detained, the other officer kept chasing Adam down the alley and told him to stop, but he kept running, prosecutors said. Adam then stopped near a break in a wooden fence, and the officer ordered Adam to show his hands, prosecutors said.

At that point, Adam was standing with his left side toward the officer, and had his right hand at his right side, prosecutors said. Adam turned toward the officer, and it turned out he had a gun in his right hand, prosecutors said. The officer ordered him to drop the gun, prosecutors said.

When he did not, the officer shot Adam once in the chest, prosecutors said. The officer gave Adam CPR afterward, but Adam did not survive.

The gun that Adam was holding landed a few feet away against the fence, prosecutors said.

Adam was pronounced dead at the scene. His right hand also tested positive for gunshot residue, and the Ruger 9mm was recovered against the fence, prosecutors said.

The fired shell casings from the scene matched up to the Ruger 9mm, prosecutors said.

https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2021/04/10/adam-toledo-shot-police-ruben-roman-chicago-police-department/



But it turned out the prosecutors had said bull****: https://wgntv.com/news/chicago-news/prosecutor-who-said-adam-toledo-had-gun-in-his-hand-not-fully-informed/

But now, in response to a WGN Investigates inquiry, the state’s attorney’s office says the detail about Adam having a gun in his hand the moment he was shot was inaccurate.

“An attorney who works in this office failed to fully inform himself before speaking in court,” Sarah Sinovic, a spokesperson for Cook County State’s Attorney Kim Foxx, told WGN Investigates Thursday. It comes just before the Civilian Office of Police Accountability releases several videos of the incident.

Prosecutors also told the judge in Roman’s case that Toledo’s right hand tested positive for gunshot residue.

When asked during a Thursday news conference at City Hall, Mayor Lori Lightfoot declined to say whether videos she has seen show the 13-year-old with a gun in his hand.

Police have said a 9MM Ruger was found along a fence next to where Toledo was shot.

So someone's covering something up, which means even they know that this use of force was ****ed up.

MrStuffins

Well he should have complied with the offic........

Oh....wait!

Cody montana

Absolutely sickening.

Potential-Monke

No complaints here, that's murder.

Fierce traumatic video. Poor kid.

Scuid Mhór

Here we go again.

wes

Pure f***ing evil. No other words for this.

wandererz

How come the Hispanic population hasn't started rioting, looting and burning down stuff.

Did you smash it

He had a gun though moments before? Going by the CNN report? https://edition.cnn.com/2021/04/15/us/adam-toledo-police-shooting-body-camera/index.html

Overheal

Did you smash it wrote: »

He had a gun though moments before? Going by the CNN report? https://edition.cnn.com/2021/04/15/us/adam-toledo-police-shooting-body-camera/index.html

Please refer to the OP. Earlier reports were misinformed.

Overheal

wes wrote: »

Pure f***ing evil. No other words for this.

Not sure if that's because the officer is pure evil or the system is.

"It's a system. It's not broken. It's working the way it's designed to work. And once you realise that, I feel like you get to a place where you go, 'Oh, we're not dealing with bad apples. We're dealing with a rotten tree that happens to grow good apples. But for the most part, the tree that was planted is bearing the fruit that it was intended to." - Trevor Noah

nolivesmatter

wes wrote: »

Pure f***ing evil. No other words for this.

Not sure if that's the best way to describe it. I'm not downplaying what happened, but if it was an act of evil then the issue would only be the bad cop. Seems like it's a bigger issue than that unfortunately.

Edit: I see Overheal got there before me.

I can't see the image in the op from the video.

According to reports he had a gun and his own family aren't denying that he had a gun nor that he fled from police WITH a gun. His families legal team would only say "he didn't have a gun when he turned around, he ditched it" but it was found, again according to reports, behind the fence.

1 second op. That's the time the officer had to "ask questions" before shooting as you put it. Perhaps asking "is that a gun you are pointing at me?" Might have taken a tad long?

Also didn't strike me that the cop was too happy about it. He tried after the shooting to render medical aid unlike a lot of these events we have seen.

Think the age of the boy is effecting people's ability to be neutral but then it's the USA. Where people, including teenagers carrying guns and using them against other people just seems to be getting worse.

USA or Ireland. Stay where I am thanks

Did you smash it

Overheal wrote: »

Please refer to the OP. Earlier reports were misinformed.

This is on the CNN site right now. He had gunshot residue on his hands. He tossed the weapon literally right before he got shot. It’s on the video in the CNN report.

Americas problem is it’s guns ownership laws. It’s an unsolvable problem and we’ll have another case next week .

Live by the gun, die by the gun.

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

Please refer to the OP. Earlier reports were misinformed.

Not in that regard. The gun was recovered beside him ffs! His hand tested positive for residue.

Uriel.

Overheal wrote: »

Please refer to the OP. Earlier reports were misinformed.

That's not what the OP says at all in the context of the poster you replied to.

The earlier reports said he had a gun in his hand at the moment the officer fired. It appears that is not the case, but it is also clear he had a gun. He may have dropped it immediately prior to the officer discharging his weapon. How immediate before hand is not clear. Did the officer see the gun in his hand? Did The officer see him drop it behind the fence? Did the action of dropping it behind the fence happen in the same motion as Toledo turning and putting up his hands? If so, is it reasonable in the circumstances (in a matter of seconds) for the officer to have believed that the gun he saw in his hand was still in his hand and the movement of Toledos actions was mistakenly believed to be a threat.

All questions that need to be examined.

Sad case and distressing video whatever the investigation outcome.

nolivesmatter

Did you smash it wrote: »

This is on the CNN site right now. He had gunshot residue on his hands. He tossed the weapon literally right before he got shot. It’s on the video in the CNN report.

Americas problem is it’s guns ownership laws. It’s an unsolvable problem and we’ll have another case next week .

Live by the gun, die by the gun.

Silly as it sounds it's as if the only 'solution' is to physically divide the US in two and let people decide which one they want to live in - the one with guns or the one without.

MrMusician18

I don't want to sound heartless but why should we care, because clearly that don't care in the country where it is a problem. This happened in a country where quite frankly the likes of this is the result of poorly trained militarised police in addition to the country being awash with guns.

This is a problem for the US to solve. I suspect the real issue is that a good chunk of the population there don't see it as a problem, out at least one worth solving.

Overheal

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

According to reports he had a gun and his own family aren't denying that he had a gun nor that he fled from police WITH a gun. His families legal team would only say "he didn't have a gun when he turned around, he ditched it" but it was found, again according to reports, behind the fence.

FTR, this is the family attorney's public statement:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-nQ1MLgdHY

A burning question, either way, revolves around the point that the boy doesn't have a gun when the officer shoots him. He is complying with the officer's commands.

What is the amount of time between potentially having a firearm, and complying unarmed with the officer, that would have had to elapse for the gun being ditched behind the fence to have not been justification for his killing? 5 second rule? 20?

A cop ran up to a suspect with no knowledge one way or the other of what may or may not have been in his hand 3, 5, 10, 20 seconds ago, (if at all), who complied with their command and showed them their open hands before shooting them lethally. He could have ditched a wallet, drugs, a gun, a nuclear explosive, but should cops be killing people who might have ditched something in the woods that was no longer an immediate threat? We have a weird gun culture where we simultaneously agree that guns are okay to own but that if you get killed as a suspect to a crime (your innocence intact, your guilt not proven) and you happened to have had a gun within 100 yards of you, in your car or your bedroom or whatever, that you simply must have been a bad person and an imminent lethal threat. It continues to flummox me.

Prosecutors claimed that he had the gun in his hand when he was killed, then they later claimed that was false. Without someone besides the prosecutors saying that there was gun residue on the victim's hand, then, I am not going to believe that is definitively proven to be the case just yet. Their credibility is shaken by that grave error in their reporting not just to the media, but the courts, that the boy had a gun in his hand at the time the video shows he very clearly did not, and they have openly admitted fault for that empirically evident error.

It is still absolutely within reasonable doubt to argue the boy was armed and ditched the gun as police closed in, yes. I am just going to require a bit more convincing, personally, considering the source, than just their word that he had the residue on his hand, etc. - the department did the right thing by releasing as much footage as they did, but I haven't looked at it all, and rumors are already flying up and down comments sections (eg. people are claiming, yet to be verified by me, that the police chief ordered all officers to turn off their body cameras shortly thereafter), so this is the fuzzy time where facts can be fluid.

nolivesmatter

nolivesmatter wrote: »

Silly as it sounds it's as if the only 'solution' is to physically divide the US in two and let people decide which one they want to live in - the one with guns or the one without.

Ownership on its own is too simplistic. Canada had a lot of gun owners but far less ****. It's their mentality towards not just ownership but usage and conflict as well.

nolivesmatter

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Ownership on its own is too simplistic. Canada had a lot of gun owners but far less ****. It's their mentality towards not just ownership but usage and conflict as well.

Fair enough. The people who don't want them I would say are closer to the right mentality. I'd at least like to see those people be able to live in a gun-free society.

Overheal

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Ownership on its own is too simplistic. Canada had a lot of gun owners but far less ****. It's their mentality towards not just ownership but usage and conflict as well.

But you can solve so many problems with violence, thinks the country with the worlds biggest stick.

Did you smash it

Overheal wrote: »

A cop ran up to a suspect with no knowledge one way or the other of what may or may not have been in his hand 3, 5, 10, 20 seconds ago,

Eh no, he saw the gun in his hand.... because it was in his hand. There was .half of a second on the bodycam tape in the difference in the time he tossed the gun to the time he got shot. So it was split second.

Cop got spooked after not noticing the gun getting tossed behind the wall and shot him.

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

FTR, this is the family attorney's public statement:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-nQ1MLgdHY

A burning question, either way, revolves around the point that the boy doesn't have a gun when the officer shoots him. He is complying with the officer's commands.

What is the amount of time between potentially having a firearm, and complying unarmed with the officer, that would have had to elapse for the gun being ditched behind the fence to have not been justification for his killing? 5 second rule? 20?

A cop ran up to a suspect with no knowledge one way or the other of what may or may not have been in his hand 3, 5, 10, 20 seconds ago, (if at all), who complied with their command and showed them their open hands before shooting them lethally.

Prosecutors claimed that he had the gun in his hand when he was killed, then they later claimed that was false. Without someone besides the prosecutors saying that there was gun residue on the victim's hand, then, I am not going to believe that is definitively proven to be the case just yet. Their credibility is shaken by that grave error in their reporting not just to the media, but the courts, that the boy had a gun in his hand at the time the video shows he very clearly did not, and they have openly admitted fault for that empirically evident error.

No sorry, the video does not. I have watched it a number of times. Even in freeze frame it's not clear cut.

And it's not seconds, it's not even 1 second. It's a split second. He could have thrown the him as he turned. Turning, with a firearm in your hand after running from police. Yeah, I know you like to bash the cops when you can but to could at least try to stick to the actual facts.

"Chicago police said Thursday that body-worn camera footage released by authorities shows less than a second passed from when 13-year-old Adam Toledo is seen holding a handgun and an officer fires a single, fatal shot that hits him in the chest."

1 second. ****ing billy the kid couldn't draw and fire in that time frame but you expect the cop to have time to ask a question and wait to see what the suspect does?

Here's the lawyer by the way, the families lawyer and even he doesn't make the claims you do:

"Asked if Toledo had a gun at any point during the incident in the alley that led to the fatal shooting, Weiss-Ortiz said, "At the time Adam was shot, he did not have a gun. Okay?"

"In that slo-mo version [of one of the videos], whatever he had in his, in his hand, whether it was a gun or something else, there was something in his hand, he approaches the fence, he lets it go, he turns around, and he's shot," Weiss-Ortiz said.
"It could be a gun. I'm not going to deny that, that it could be a gun, but I can't tell you with 100% certainty, until I have that video forensically analyzed and enhanced," the attorney continued. "But it is not relevant, because he tossed the gun. If he had a gun, he tossed it.""

BorneTobyWilde

Funny how it's always a kill shot with american cops. An innocent kids killed by a chicken sh it cop who fired before he saw his hands were empty.

Overheal

Did you smash it wrote: »

Eh no, he saw the gun in his hand.... because it was in his hand. There was .half of a second on the bodycam tape in the difference in the time he tossed the gun to the time he got shot. So it was split second.

Cop got spooked after not noticing the gun getting tossed behind the wall and shot him.

I don't see the gun in the video. Do you? I didn't catch anything showing where a gun was recovered. I did however definitively catch the moment at the end of the clip in the lawandcrime.com link where the dispatch orders all officers to turn off their body cameras.

Overheal

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

No sorry, the video does not. I have watched it a number of times. Even in freeze frame it's not clear cut.

And it's not seconds, it's not even 1 second. It's a split second. He could have thrown the him as he turned. Turning, with a firearm in your hand after running from police. Yeah, I know you like to bash the cops when you can but to could at least try to stick to the actual facts.

"Chicago police said Thursday that body-worn camera footage released by authorities shows less than a second passed from when 13-year-old Adam Toledo is seen holding a handgun and an officer fires a single, fatal shot that hits him in the chest."

1 second. ****ing billy the kid couldn't draw and fire in that time frame but you expect the cop to have time to ask a question and wait to see what the suspect does?

Here's the lawyer by the way, the families lawyer and even he doesn't make the claims you do:

"Asked if Toledo had a gun at any point during the incident in the alley that led to the fatal shooting, Weiss-Ortiz said, "At the time Adam was shot, he did not have a gun. Okay?"

"In that slo-mo version [of one of the videos], whatever he had in his, in his hand, whether it was a gun or something else, there was something in his hand, he approaches the fence, he lets it go, he turns around, and he's shot," Weiss-Ortiz said.
"It could be a gun. I'm not going to deny that, that it could be a gun, but I can't tell you with 100% certainty, until I have that video forensically analyzed and enhanced," the attorney continued. "But it is not relevant, because he tossed the gun. If he had a gun, he tossed it.""

Then where is the gun? Show me the freeze frame. I saw him go tend to the boy, I did not see him catch sight of any dropped weapon. If it was a split second it didn't travel 20 yards on its own, he wasn't exactly seen doing a discus throw.

Police said he held a gun in his hand. I see none in the video.

""Adam, during his last second of life did not have a gun in his hand," Adeena Weiss-Ortiz said. "The officer screamed at him, 'show me your hands,' Adam complied, turned around, his hands were empty when he was shot in the chest at the hands of the officer."

"He did not have a gun in his hand, contrary to the reports made earlier today," Weiss-Ortiz added."

Have you watched the video?

Did you smash it

Overheal wrote: »

I don't see the gun in the video. Do you? I didn't catch anything showing where a gun was recovered. I did however definitively catch the moment at the end of the clip in the lawandcrime.com link where the dispatch orders all officers to turn off their body cameras.

BorneTobyWilde

I don't even get the gun argument. It's the USA you have the right to bear arms, so I don't get these sissy cops

'' omg he's got a gun, omg omg omg omg ahhhhh cries cries omg omg omg''

wtf Is all that about.

So what if someone has a gun, it's legal to have one. geez.

Overheal

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Funny how it's always a kill shot with american cops. An innocent kids killed by a chicken sh it cop who fired before he saw his hands were empty.

No, to be perfectly clear, it was after he saw his hands were empty.

irishgrover

It looks like
A.) The child had a gun and tossed it behind a fence
B.) The cop told him to raise his hands
C.) This child immediately complied with that order
D.) The cop shot him dead, unarmed, with his arms in the air, and complying with the cops direct instruction.

It also looks like the time between him tossing the gun and being shot was only a second or two. No doubt this will come into play...split second for decision making, cope thought he was armed, he thought his live was in danger, terrible tragedy etc etc

Who knows what was going through the cops mind when he decided to pull the trigger.....but its terrible, a child is dead

Overheal

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

I can't see the image in the op from the video.

I've fixed the OP with a hardcopy attachment.

BorneTobyWilde

Should have kept running, they'd never shoot a kid just running form them, or would they

Varik

Overheal wrote: »

Then where is the gun? Show me the freeze frame. I saw him go tend to the boy, I did not see him catch sight of any dropped weapon. If it was a split second it didn't travel 20 yards on its own, he wasn't exactly seen doing a discus throw.

Police said he held a gun in his hand. I see none in the video.

5:26 he steps through the fence and then after a bit shines his light at it.

Potential-Monke

The shooting was unwarranted imo, but also goes to show how quick something can happen. Not excusing it, there is no excuse imo, and I usually tend to side with police in unclear stuff, but to me this is clear. There's no way the cop gave enough time to clearly see he was armed. But again, easy to say that looking at it now while sitting in my sofa.

Further questions would be why the 13 year old had a gun, why he was with the other lad who seemed to either randomly shoot his gun, or was shooting at something specifically (both of which are dangerous and illegal), why did he run when the cops came along, why didn't he stop straight away. I'm not shifting blame, but questioning the events. And like everything, if one of those events happened differently, maybe the outcome would be different.

Either way, the cop is going to jail imo. I can't see him get a way out of that. Not in these times anyway.

Did you smash it

Not sure that photo came out.

So he had the gun in his hand half a second before he was shot. Tossed it, turned around and got shot.

So nothing should be disputed now with the passage of events.

Overheal

Why Were Police Told To Turn Off Body Cameras Minutes After Adam Toledo Shooting? It’s Standard Policy, Department Says

https://blockclubchicago.org/2021/04/12/why-were-police-told-to-turn-off-body-cameras-minutes-after-shooting-adam-toledo-its-standard-policy-police-sergeant-says/

CHICAGO — Eight minutes after a police officer fatally shot 13-year-old Adam Toledo in Little Village, officers responding to the scene were told to turn off their body cameras.

That’s according to police dispatch audio published on Instagram this weekend by Pilsen photojournalist Mateo Zapata. The audio, which Zapata edited for brevity, alarmed community members who have been following the case, but police say it’s standard procedure for officers to turn off cameras once a crime scene is “secured.”

Toledo was shot March 29 in the 2300 block of South Sawyer Avenue following an “armed confrontation” with police, authorities said. Prosecutors said Toledo was with Ruben Roman, 21, who had been firing a handgun nearby when officers responded to a ShotSpotter alert of shots fired.

Two uniformed Chicago Police officers responded to the scene, spotted Roman and Toledo and began chasing after them, prosecutors said.

After Roman was detained, the second officer chased Toledo down an alley. He repeatedly told Toledo to stop but Toledo continued running. The teen stopped near a fence and the officer told him to show his hands, prosecutors said.

Toledo was holding a gun in his right hand, at his right side, and standing with his left side facing the officer, prosecutors alleged.

“The officer tells [Toledo] to drop it — ‘drop it, drop it’ — as [Toledo] turns toward the officer. [Toledo] has a gun in his right hand. The officer fires one shot at [Toledo], striking him in the chest,” Cook County Prosecutor James Murphy said during Roman’s Saturday hearing. Body camera footage of the incident is expected to be released this week after Toledo’s family is able to view it.

In the audio, which Zapata said was recorded approximately 8 minutes after Toledo was shot, officers are told that the scene is secured and that they can turn off their cameras.

“Scene secured, everyone shut off your camera,” one person says over the radio.

“Just a reminder to any units on the scene here at 24th and Sawyer, please turn off your body cams,” another voice says. According to the audio from Zapata, officers were told at least four times to shut off their body cameras.

Block Club Chicago independently verified that officers were first told to turn off their body cameras approximately 8 minutes after Toledo was shot. However, the additional reminders came later, and were not all within the 29 seconds of the audio that he posted to Instagram.

A Chicago Police sergeant, who asked to remain anonymous, said shutting off the cameras once a scene is secured is consistent with department policy.

“Once the scene is secured, that’s when we can turn off our body cams. After the incident is completed and secured, that’s like a general order of ours,” the sergeant said.

Secured means that “it’s no longer an active scene and the police have cordoned it off for their investigation,” the sergeant said.

After Block Club published this story, CPD spokesman Don Terry confirmed officers at the scene followed department directives in shutting off their cameras after several minutes.

“They didn’t do anything wrong. An incident happens, after the incident is under control, turn off your body cameras while the investigation is underway,” Terry said.

[INSTAGRAM POLICE SCANNER AUDIO AT LINK]

Zapata, who obtained the audio from an unnamed source, said allowing police officers to shut off cameras just minutes after a fatal shooting by police seems like a bad policy.

“Whether it’s police procedure or not, it’s something that I don’t agree with,” he said. “I think if we are going to have police officers wear body cams, then we need to have the entire situation documented. Before, during the incident, and afterwards. I think it’s a level of transparency and accountability that the residents of Chicago are entitled to.”

The reason behind shutting off the cameras involves the cost of storing the footage, the sergeant said.

“It would be astronomical to store 9 hours or 24 hours a day for the whole police department. They are already spending millions of dollars,” the sergeant said.

According to a Chicago Police Department directive issued in 2018, officers must “activate his body-worn camera at the beginning of an incident and will record the entire incident for all law-enforcement-related activities.”

As for turning them off, the directive says they will not be deactivated unless “the entire incident has been recorded and the member is no longer engaged in a law-enforcement-related activity… or “the highest-ranking on-scene Bureau of Patrol supervisor has determined that the scene is secured in circumstances involving an officer-involved death investigation, firearm discharge, or any other use of force incident.”

Asked if turning off body-cams after an incident is routine, the sergeant said, “it’s become common because there was a learning curve. They thought they had to keep them on the whole time, but no, it’s only during the incident. Once it’s over and secured, that’s when it could be turned off [per] our rules and regulations.”

The sergeant said to activate the camera, there’s a round button near the center of the body camera that must be pushed twice.

“It starts recording at that point but it saves the previous thirty seconds, so technically they are always on but they are not always recording to where you’d be able to look back further than 30 seconds [before activating].

“The minute you start responding to a call, you’re supposed to activate it. Then you can turn it off once the scene is secured,” the sergeant said.

An independent policing expert, who did not want to go on the record due to the sensitive nature of the Toledo shooting, said she hadn’t heard the audio but confirmed that storage costs are something that police departments around the country are having issues with.

Zapata scoffed at cost as a reason to not have body-cams always on.

“We’re within the midst of a pandemic where the Mayor gave the Chicago Police Department over half of our federal relief funds amounting to $280 million and they are saying that it’s too expensive to log and review the footage. It’s a cycle of inconsistency on behalf of the Chicago Police Department,” Zapata said.

That if it is policy seems like a terribly bad idea. For example, having body camera that shows exactly when and where the gun was found would prove definitively where it was found. We have unfortunately had incidents in this country which have seriously shaken the confidence in police exerting special control over their body cameras. This officer for example in the tweet below did not factor in that the bodycamera model like most others functions to record 30 or so seconds of footage before the 'Record' button is pressed (this is usually in most cases the time where the footage has no audio initially - in the video for Adam Toledo's shooting this pre-recording length looked to be approximately 2 minutes of time preceding the record point) so, this officer below ended up recording himself planting evidence.

https://twitter.com/justin_fenton/status/887504546074939393?s=20

And this is not a freak occurrence either.

I think the public is going to have some very serious concerns that police can do all sorts of things to manipulate a crime scene with no cameras on - especially in ones where the only other involved party is dead.

Varik

Overheal wrote: »

Why Were Police Told To Turn Off Body Cameras Minutes After Adam Toledo Shooting? It’s Standard Policy, Department Says

https://blockclubchicago.org/2021/04/12/why-were-police-told-to-turn-off-body-cameras-minutes-after-shooting-adam-toledo-its-standard-policy-police-sergeant-says/



That if it is policy seems like a terribly bad idea. For example, having body camera that shows exactly when and where the gun was found would prove definitively where it was found. We have unfortunately had incidents in this country which have seriously shaken the confidence in police exerting special control over their body cameras. This officer for example in the tweet below did not factor in that the bodycamera model like most others functions to record 30 or so seconds of footage before the 'Record' button is pressed (this is usually in most cases the time where the footage has no audio initially - in the video for Adam Toledo's shooting this pre-recording length looked to be approximately 2 minutes of time preceding the record point) so, this officer below ended up recording himself planting evidence.

https://twitter.com/justin_fenton/status/887504546074939393?s=20

And this is not a freak occurrence either.

I think the public is going to have some very serious concerns that police can do all sorts of things to manipulate a crime scene with no cameras on - especially in ones where the only other involved party is dead.

The cameras' were shut off 4 minutes after they found the gun

poisonated

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Should have kept running, they'd never shoot a kid just running form them, or would they

There was a case in North Charleston a few years ago where the cop shot a guy who was just running away.

We need a sub forum for US related threads. Or one thread called. More ****wittery from the US of little interest to Ireland.

There are 1000+ police killings per year in the US. We could start a thread every few days for shootings of black people alone, about 30% of the total. We don’t need new threads. Let’s have one.

Overheal

Did you smash it wrote: »

Not sure that photo came out.

So he had the gun in his hand half a second before he was shot. Tossed it, turned around and got shot.

So nothing should be disputed now with the passage of events.

Thanks, I could not see through the strobe, but that very much appears to be a gun in his hand in that frame. And I didn't pay enough of attention to the longer minutes where the boy is dying so did not spot the gun there. Thank you again for doing so.

Now this officer finds himself in a very difficult situation, because the kid complied, his hands were up, his palms were up, yet the cop was not in control of his reflexes enough to not shoot, he was already wound up to do so and had a pretty understandable fear having registered there was a gun in his hand within those few split seconds. Yeah, if he had clearly been seen ditching it seconds earlier, I could see why the cops actions would then be wholly unjustifiable. Given how rare any one cop's number of encounters with armed suspects is overall, I think it would be hard to condemn his action as evil, thusly. Had I not seen any gun, and ran up to a suspect and did all that, yes, way overblown, but the guns in his hand right in this between time where, frankly, I think it could be argued human reaction time was a heavy factor. I've seen the reaction studies for like, baseball. Professional athletes throw them so fast that hitters(batters) cannot physically see-then-react to the whole launch, they have to just process body language cues from the pitcher and move where they intuitively think the ball will go. Here the cop made a similar intuitive call (the wrong one it turned out) that looks like it was already in motion faster than his brain could process new information and send it to his fingers.

I think the city needs to settle with the family and that the cop will likely receive qualified immunity. However, I'm still of the opinion cops in these cases should still sit trial and not have such blanket immunities; in this case I still think such a trial would end in light punitive sentencing for the officer.

I don't know how you fix policing in a society that says people have the right to carry firearms, though.

Overheal

Varik wrote: »

The cameras' were shut off 4 minutes after they found the gun

That's good. That is the important thing to me there, that they did confirm they had recorded the state of the scene, so this is what they must have meant by scene secure shut them off etc. so there is not that window of opportunity to manipulate that sort of thing.

I'm glad it was addressed here though as people are just hearing "they shut off the cameras?!" and going off on facebook posts etc. which is why I wanted to pick up on what I initially regarded as a rumor about the order to turn off cameras and follow it up.

BloodBath

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Funny how it's always a kill shot with american cops. An innocent kids killed by a chicken sh it cop who fired before he saw his hands were empty.

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

I don't even get the gun argument. It's the USA you have the right to bear arms, so I don't get these sissy cops

'' omg he's got a gun, omg omg omg omg ahhhhh cries cries omg omg omg''

wtf Is all that about.

So what if someone has a gun, it's legal to have one. geez.

Maybe because they are trained to aim center mass, the chest, because it's the biggest least moving target. You're playing too many games if you think they have time to think and aim at a limb in that situation.

Why the **** is a 13 year old kid running around with a gun? That's not legal.
Why don't you try being a cop in a city like Chicago and see how easy it is?

Moronic comment.

Overheal wrote: »

No, to be perfectly clear, it was after he saw his hands were empty.

He shoots him as he turns, he can't see his right hand, The kid could easily turn and shoot there. It happens all the time. Cops get shot or killed in scenarios like these but you won't see any threads about that. The kid needed to put his hands above his head to show his hands. You don't do a shifty turn like that in a dark alleyway.

I feel bad for all involved but some dopes really have it out for the cops without understanding how hard they have it. This guy has to live the rest of his life seeing that kids face knowing that he killed him and he seems to have a conscience. That can really destroy a person and lead to suicide. He may get a criminal charge on top. But hey **** the police right!

The gun laws are the problem and anyone with a bit of intelligence knows that.

Potential-Monke

I did miss the gun part, that wasn't clear to begin with, so my initial comment of murder may be incorrect, or at the least a reaction rather than a thoughtful informed reply. Seeing it again and with the close ups and confirmations, that split second will make all the difference. Again, easy for us to sit back and go through it all with a fine tooth comb, but that split second is all the cop had. Hard to know. Lots of questions from this case. Lots.

Don't see any rioting about it though... Genuinely, why is that? Also goes to show that sometimes we only see what we want to see, and miss vital and important information. It's why witness testimony is taken with a pinch of salt, people remember events incorrectly.

Overheal

Potential-Monke wrote: »

I did miss the gun part, that wasn't clear to begin with, so my initial comment of murder may be incorrect, or at the least a reaction rather than a thoughtful informed reply. Seeing it again and with the close ups and confirmations, that split second will make all the difference. Again, easy for us to sit back and go through it all with a fine tooth comb, but that split second is all the cop had. Hard to know. Lots of questions from this case. Lots.

Don't see any rioting about it though... Genuinely, why is that? Also goes to show that sometimes we only see what we want to see, and miss vital and important information. It's why witness testimony is taken with a pinch of salt, people remember events incorrectly.

In fairness to the cop his night sight is much, much, much better than the camera's, too. Though the strobe can't be helpful. I know they train with that, but still.

Mech1

If you play with guns, you might get shot, its the same the world over. Even here.

Mech1

Oh,, and I own a few.

AllForIt

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

I don't even get the gun argument. It's the USA you have the right to bear arms, so I don't get these sissy cops

'' omg he's got a gun, omg omg omg omg ahhhhh cries cries omg omg omg''

wtf Is all that about.

So what if someone has a gun, it's legal to have one. geez.

The police officers were responding to gun shots in the middle of the night.

It would be noting more that stupid to say oh maybe someone is just blowing a few bullets in the air for the fun of it so lets take this nice and easy.

All the policie officers have is a gun, their uniforms or flashing lights on their squad car don't protect them in any way. I'd be loath to to have to respond to 'reports of gunshot's' when you know full well someting is going down and you might not survive it.

The 2 chaps ran away, they had a gun, at 2am, so I don't know what kind of training is going to ensure 100% of these kinds of situations are all going to turn out well.

US officers killed in llne of duty:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_law_enforcement_officers_killed_in_the_line_of_duty_in_the_United_States#2019

There is no way I would ever wish to be a police officer chasing after people with guns down allyways in the middle of the night. Sometimes these situations will have a bad outcome, it's inevitable actually. And no training is going to completel prevent things like this happening.

BloodBath

If I had to criticize the cop for anything it would be his instruction to simply "show your hands" rather than put your hands above your head.

The kid turned to show his hands and the cop reacted. If he had raised his hands before turning I'm sure it wouldn't have happened.

Overheal

Mech1 wrote: »

If you play with guns, you might get shot, its the same the world over. Even here.

And I think that is why progressives want to push the agenda of just getting everyone to stop playing with guns, a drawdown of both citizens and police. The right, meanwhile, inexorably ties any regulation of firearms to Godwin's Law.

JupiterKid

Just when you thought the situation could not get any worse. This is just reprehensible.