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US Police killing of 13 year old Adam Toledo

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  • 15-04-2021 10:36pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 81,917 ✭✭✭✭


    They ordered him to show his hands, and for doing so, they killed him.

    https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/police-release-graphic-body-cam-footage-showing-officer-killing-13-year-old-adam-toledo/?fbclid=IwAR0Wr9DTWwKFliWbnujMLrIdOhQBEEIFetXDqJJpAD4bn49L9YAk9O8gLEg

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    Chicago’s Civilian Office of Police Accountability released on Thursday body-cam video showing an officer shooting and killing 13-year-old Adam Toledo. We have embedded this vantage point above. Footage begins without audio, but this audio turns on at about the 1:58-mark, seconds before the fatal shooting.

    As previously reported, an officer shot and killed Toledo early March 29. Police said they had been responding to a report of gunfire. Officers said they saw “two subjects in a nearby alley.” Cops said at the time that they recovered a gun from the scene.

    As seen on video, the officer who opened fire drove to the scene, and hurried out of the vehicle. He ran past what seemed to be a bystander, and continued down the alleyway. He turned on the audio.

    “Stop!” he said. “Stop right ****ing now.”

    It’s at this moment that Toledo appeared to have his back to the officer.

    “Hey, show me your ****ing hands!” said the officer.

    Toledo turned. His hands were pointed up.

    “Drop it!” said the officer. “Drop it!” He opened fire.

    Law&Crime does not see a gun in Toledo’s hands at 2:05, the second the shooting occurred. After the shooting, police referred to this as an “armed confrontation” and said that a gun was recovered from the scene.

    Before release of the video, (The link contains a copious number of angles and clips from different dashcams and bodycams, 911 calls etc, released by the department) the office of the Cook County State’s Attorney walked back a statement made by one of their prosecutors, who asserted Toledo had a gun in his right hand when he was shot.



    Shoot first, ask questions later. From what you can see in the video the young boy complied to show the officer who ran up behind him his hands at gun point, the moment he showed the officer his hands the officer killed him. The officer was responding to a call of shots fired, he encounters 2 bystanders, the first he appears to grab or something briefly, before running down the alleyway more to find Toledo with his back initially toward him. The primary suspect, a 21 year old male, was already apprehended.

    In any case I don't think this is acceptable use of force.

    Earlier reports claimed that Toledo had a gun in his hand:
    Roman, 21, was arrested shortly before noon Friday in the 1600 block of South 18th Avenue in Maywood, Illinois, in relation to a probation violation warrant. He is charged with felony reckless discharge of a firearm, felony unlawful use of a weapon by a felon, and felony endangerment of a child.

    In a proffer, the Cook County State’s Attorney’s office said Roman was walking south on Sawyer Avenue toward 24th Street in Little Village at 2:36 a.m. Monday, March 29. Roman was wearing a gold Carhartt jacket and a gold shirt and dark pants, while Adam was wearing a navy blue hoodie, dark pants, and a white hat – and they could easily be told apart, prosecutors said.

    Video from Farragut Career Academy High School showed Roman and Adam walking together, while a vehicle was seen heading down the street away from where they were. The video appears to show Ruben walk up to the corner and take a shooting stance, while Adam first starts to move back in the direction from which they came and then moves back toward Roman as Roman fires shots, prosecutors said.

    Adam was next to Roman for a portion of time that Roman was firing shots, after which point Roman ran back the way they came – followed close behind by Adam, prosecutors said. A ShotSpotter alert recorded eight shots being fired, and a total of seven shell casings were found at the scene where Roman was shooting, prosecutors said.

    After the shots were fired, Roman and Adam began running north on Sawyer Avenue and cut into a gangway at 2324 S. Sawyer Ave., prosecutors said. Two uniformed Chicago Police officers pulled up less than a minute after the shots were fired as Ruben and Adam fled in the alley, prosecutors said.

    Both officers got out of their squad car and chased the pair down the alley, prosecutors said. Roman was taken to the ground first and one of the officers detained him as he dropped a pair of red gloves on the ground, prosecutors said. This was captured by the officer’s body camera, prosecutors said.

    The gloves later tested positive for gunshot residue, prosecutors said.

    As Roman was being detained, the other officer kept chasing Adam down the alley and told him to stop, but he kept running, prosecutors said. Adam then stopped near a break in a wooden fence, and the officer ordered Adam to show his hands, prosecutors said.

    At that point, Adam was standing with his left side toward the officer, and had his right hand at his right side, prosecutors said. Adam turned toward the officer, and it turned out he had a gun in his right hand, prosecutors said. The officer ordered him to drop the gun, prosecutors said.

    When he did not, the officer shot Adam once in the chest, prosecutors said. The officer gave Adam CPR afterward, but Adam did not survive.

    The gun that Adam was holding landed a few feet away against the fence, prosecutors said.

    Adam was pronounced dead at the scene. His right hand also tested positive for gunshot residue, and the Ruger 9mm was recovered against the fence, prosecutors said.

    The fired shell casings from the scene matched up to the Ruger 9mm, prosecutors said.
    https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2021/04/10/adam-toledo-shot-police-ruben-roman-chicago-police-department/



    But it turned out the prosecutors had said bull****: https://wgntv.com/news/chicago-news/prosecutor-who-said-adam-toledo-had-gun-in-his-hand-not-fully-informed/
    But now, in response to a WGN Investigates inquiry, the state’s attorney’s office says the detail about Adam having a gun in his hand the moment he was shot was inaccurate.

    “An attorney who works in this office failed to fully inform himself before speaking in court,” Sarah Sinovic, a spokesperson for Cook County State’s Attorney Kim Foxx, told WGN Investigates Thursday. It comes just before the Civilian Office of Police Accountability releases several videos of the incident.

    Prosecutors also told the judge in Roman’s case that Toledo’s right hand tested positive for gunshot residue.

    When asked during a Thursday news conference at City Hall, Mayor Lori Lightfoot declined to say whether videos she has seen show the 13-year-old with a gun in his hand.

    Police have said a 9MM Ruger was found along a fence next to where Toledo was shot.

    So someone's covering something up, which means even they know that this use of force was ****ed up.

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    Post edited by Beasty on


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 19,154 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    Well he should have complied with the offic........

    Oh....wait!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,243 ✭✭✭Cody montana


    Absolutely sickening.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,848 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    No complaints here, that's murder.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,755 ✭✭✭Northernlily


    Fierce traumatic video. Poor kid.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,326 ✭✭✭Scuid Mhór


    Here we go again.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Pure f***ing evil. No other words for this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,530 ✭✭✭wandererz


    How come the Hispanic population hasn't started rioting, looting and burning down stuff.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,831 ✭✭✭Did you smash it


    He had a gun though moments before? Going by the CNN report? https://edition.cnn.com/2021/04/15/us/adam-toledo-police-shooting-body-camera/index.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 81,917 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    He had a gun though moments before? Going by the CNN report? https://edition.cnn.com/2021/04/15/us/adam-toledo-police-shooting-body-camera/index.html

    Please refer to the OP. Earlier reports were misinformed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 81,917 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    wes wrote: »
    Pure f***ing evil. No other words for this.

    Not sure if that's because the officer is pure evil or the system is.

    "It's a system. It's not broken. It's working the way it's designed to work. And once you realise that, I feel like you get to a place where you go, 'Oh, we're not dealing with bad apples. We're dealing with a rotten tree that happens to grow good apples. But for the most part, the tree that was planted is bearing the fruit that it was intended to."
    - Trevor Noah


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  • Registered Users Posts: 888 ✭✭✭nolivesmatter


    wes wrote: »
    Pure f***ing evil. No other words for this.

    Not sure if that's the best way to describe it. I'm not downplaying what happened, but if it was an act of evil then the issue would only be the bad cop. Seems like it's a bigger issue than that unfortunately.

    Edit: I see Overheal got there before me.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I can't see the image in the op from the video.

    According to reports he had a gun and his own family aren't denying that he had a gun nor that he fled from police WITH a gun. His families legal team would only say "he didn't have a gun when he turned around, he ditched it" but it was found, again according to reports, behind the fence.

    1 second op. That's the time the officer had to "ask questions" before shooting as you put it. Perhaps asking "is that a gun you are pointing at me?" Might have taken a tad long?

    Also didn't strike me that the cop was too happy about it. He tried after the shooting to render medical aid unlike a lot of these events we have seen.

    Think the age of the boy is effecting people's ability to be neutral but then it's the USA. Where people, including teenagers carrying guns and using them against other people just seems to be getting worse.

    USA or Ireland. Stay where I am thanks


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,831 ✭✭✭Did you smash it


    Overheal wrote: »
    Please refer to the OP. Earlier reports were misinformed.

    This is on the CNN site right now. He had gunshot residue on his hands. He tossed the weapon literally right before he got shot. It’s on the video in the CNN report.

    Americas problem is it’s guns ownership laws. It’s an unsolvable problem and we’ll have another case next week .

    Live by the gun, die by the gun.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Overheal wrote: »
    Please refer to the OP. Earlier reports were misinformed.

    Not in that regard. The gun was recovered beside him ffs! His hand tested positive for residue.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    Overheal wrote: »
    Please refer to the OP. Earlier reports were misinformed.

    That's not what the OP says at all in the context of the poster you replied to.

    The earlier reports said he had a gun in his hand at the moment the officer fired. It appears that is not the case, but it is also clear he had a gun. He may have dropped it immediately prior to the officer discharging his weapon. How immediate before hand is not clear. Did the officer see the gun in his hand? Did The officer see him drop it behind the fence? Did the action of dropping it behind the fence happen in the same motion as Toledo turning and putting up his hands? If so, is it reasonable in the circumstances (in a matter of seconds) for the officer to have believed that the gun he saw in his hand was still in his hand and the movement of Toledos actions was mistakenly believed to be a threat.

    All questions that need to be examined.

    Sad case and distressing video whatever the investigation outcome.


  • Registered Users Posts: 888 ✭✭✭nolivesmatter


    This is on the CNN site right now. He had gunshot residue on his hands. He tossed the weapon literally right before he got shot. It’s on the video in the CNN report.

    Americas problem is it’s guns ownership laws. It’s an unsolvable problem and we’ll have another case next week .

    Live by the gun, die by the gun.

    Silly as it sounds it's as if the only 'solution' is to physically divide the US in two and let people decide which one they want to live in - the one with guns or the one without.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,260 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    I don't want to sound heartless but why should we care, because clearly that don't care in the country where it is a problem. This happened in a country where quite frankly the likes of this is the result of poorly trained militarised police in addition to the country being awash with guns.

    This is a problem for the US to solve. I suspect the real issue is that a good chunk of the population there don't see it as a problem, out at least one worth solving.


  • Registered Users Posts: 81,917 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    According to reports he had a gun and his own family aren't denying that he had a gun nor that he fled from police WITH a gun. His families legal team would only say "he didn't have a gun when he turned around, he ditched it" but it was found, again according to reports, behind the fence.

    FTR, this is the family attorney's public statement:



    A burning question, either way, revolves around the point that the boy doesn't have a gun when the officer shoots him. He is complying with the officer's commands.

    What is the amount of time between potentially having a firearm, and complying unarmed with the officer, that would have had to elapse for the gun being ditched behind the fence to have not been justification for his killing? 5 second rule? 20?

    A cop ran up to a suspect with no knowledge one way or the other of what may or may not have been in his hand 3, 5, 10, 20 seconds ago, (if at all), who complied with their command and showed them their open hands before shooting them lethally. He could have ditched a wallet, drugs, a gun, a nuclear explosive, but should cops be killing people who might have ditched something in the woods that was no longer an immediate threat? We have a weird gun culture where we simultaneously agree that guns are okay to own but that if you get killed as a suspect to a crime (your innocence intact, your guilt not proven) and you happened to have had a gun within 100 yards of you, in your car or your bedroom or whatever, that you simply must have been a bad person and an imminent lethal threat. It continues to flummox me.

    Prosecutors claimed that he had the gun in his hand when he was killed, then they later claimed that was false. Without someone besides the prosecutors saying that there was gun residue on the victim's hand, then, I am not going to believe that is definitively proven to be the case just yet. Their credibility is shaken by that grave error in their reporting not just to the media, but the courts, that the boy had a gun in his hand at the time the video shows he very clearly did not, and they have openly admitted fault for that empirically evident error.

    It is still absolutely within reasonable doubt to argue the boy was armed and ditched the gun as police closed in, yes. I am just going to require a bit more convincing, personally, considering the source, than just their word that he had the residue on his hand, etc. - the department did the right thing by releasing as much footage as they did, but I haven't looked at it all, and rumors are already flying up and down comments sections (eg. people are claiming, yet to be verified by me, that the police chief ordered all officers to turn off their body cameras shortly thereafter), so this is the fuzzy time where facts can be fluid.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Silly as it sounds it's as if the only 'solution' is to physically divide the US in two and let people decide which one they want to live in - the one with guns or the one without.

    Ownership on its own is too simplistic. Canada had a lot of gun owners but far less ****. It's their mentality towards not just ownership but usage and conflict as well.


  • Registered Users Posts: 888 ✭✭✭nolivesmatter


    Ownership on its own is too simplistic. Canada had a lot of gun owners but far less ****. It's their mentality towards not just ownership but usage and conflict as well.

    Fair enough. The people who don't want them I would say are closer to the right mentality. I'd at least like to see those people be able to live in a gun-free society.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 81,917 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Ownership on its own is too simplistic. Canada had a lot of gun owners but far less ****. It's their mentality towards not just ownership but usage and conflict as well.

    But you can solve so many problems with violence, thinks the country with the worlds biggest stick.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,831 ✭✭✭Did you smash it


    Overheal wrote: »
    A cop ran up to a suspect with no knowledge one way or the other of what may or may not have been in his hand 3, 5, 10, 20 seconds ago,

    Eh no, he saw the gun in his hand.... because it was in his hand. There was .half of a second on the bodycam tape in the difference in the time he tossed the gun to the time he got shot. So it was split second.

    Cop got spooked after not noticing the gun getting tossed behind the wall and shot him.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Overheal wrote: »
    FTR, this is the family attorney's public statement:



    A burning question, either way, revolves around the point that the boy doesn't have a gun when the officer shoots him. He is complying with the officer's commands.

    What is the amount of time between potentially having a firearm, and complying unarmed with the officer, that would have had to elapse for the gun being ditched behind the fence to have not been justification for his killing? 5 second rule? 20?

    A cop ran up to a suspect with no knowledge one way or the other of what may or may not have been in his hand 3, 5, 10, 20 seconds ago, (if at all), who complied with their command and showed them their open hands before shooting them lethally.

    Prosecutors claimed that he had the gun in his hand when he was killed, then they later claimed that was false. Without someone besides the prosecutors saying that there was gun residue on the victim's hand, then, I am not going to believe that is definitively proven to be the case just yet. Their credibility is shaken by that grave error in their reporting not just to the media, but the courts, that the boy had a gun in his hand at the time the video shows he very clearly did not, and they have openly admitted fault for that empirically evident error.

    No sorry, the video does not. I have watched it a number of times. Even in freeze frame it's not clear cut.

    And it's not seconds, it's not even 1 second. It's a split second. He could have thrown the him as he turned. Turning, with a firearm in your hand after running from police. Yeah, I know you like to bash the cops when you can but to could at least try to stick to the actual facts.

    "Chicago police said Thursday that body-worn camera footage released by authorities shows less than a second passed from when 13-year-old Adam Toledo is seen holding a handgun and an officer fires a single, fatal shot that hits him in the chest."

    1 second. ****ing billy the kid couldn't draw and fire in that time frame but you expect the cop to have time to ask a question and wait to see what the suspect does?

    Here's the lawyer by the way, the families lawyer and even he doesn't make the claims you do:

    "Asked if Toledo had a gun at any point during the incident in the alley that led to the fatal shooting, Weiss-Ortiz said, "At the time Adam was shot, he did not have a gun. Okay?"

    "In that slo-mo version [of one of the videos], whatever he had in his, in his hand, whether it was a gun or something else, there was something in his hand, he approaches the fence, he lets it go, he turns around, and he's shot," Weiss-Ortiz said.
    "It could be a gun. I'm not going to deny that, that it could be a gun, but I can't tell you with 100% certainty, until I have that video forensically analyzed and enhanced," the attorney continued. "But it is not relevant, because he tossed the gun. If he had a gun, he tossed it.""


  • Registered Users Posts: 35,765 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde


    Funny how it's always a kill shot with american cops. An innocent kids killed by a chicken sh it cop who fired before he saw his hands were empty.


  • Registered Users Posts: 81,917 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Eh no, he saw the gun in his hand.... because it was in his hand. There was .half of a second on the bodycam tape in the difference in the time he tossed the gun to the time he got shot. So it was split second.

    Cop got spooked after not noticing the gun getting tossed behind the wall and shot him.

    I don't see the gun in the video. Do you? I didn't catch anything showing where a gun was recovered. I did however definitively catch the moment at the end of the clip in the lawandcrime.com link where the dispatch orders all officers to turn off their body cameras.


  • Registered Users Posts: 81,917 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    No sorry, the video does not. I have watched it a number of times. Even in freeze frame it's not clear cut.

    And it's not seconds, it's not even 1 second. It's a split second. He could have thrown the him as he turned. Turning, with a firearm in your hand after running from police. Yeah, I know you like to bash the cops when you can but to could at least try to stick to the actual facts.

    "Chicago police said Thursday that body-worn camera footage released by authorities shows less than a second passed from when 13-year-old Adam Toledo is seen holding a handgun and an officer fires a single, fatal shot that hits him in the chest."

    1 second. ****ing billy the kid couldn't draw and fire in that time frame but you expect the cop to have time to ask a question and wait to see what the suspect does?

    Here's the lawyer by the way, the families lawyer and even he doesn't make the claims you do:

    "Asked if Toledo had a gun at any point during the incident in the alley that led to the fatal shooting, Weiss-Ortiz said, "At the time Adam was shot, he did not have a gun. Okay?"

    "In that slo-mo version [of one of the videos], whatever he had in his, in his hand, whether it was a gun or something else, there was something in his hand, he approaches the fence, he lets it go, he turns around, and he's shot," Weiss-Ortiz said.
    "It could be a gun. I'm not going to deny that, that it could be a gun, but I can't tell you with 100% certainty, until I have that video forensically analyzed and enhanced," the attorney continued. "But it is not relevant, because he tossed the gun. If he had a gun, he tossed it.""

    Then where is the gun? Show me the freeze frame. I saw him go tend to the boy, I did not see him catch sight of any dropped weapon. If it was a split second it didn't travel 20 yards on its own, he wasn't exactly seen doing a discus throw.

    Police said he held a gun in his hand. I see none in the video.

    ""Adam, during his last second of life did not have a gun in his hand," Adeena Weiss-Ortiz said. "The officer screamed at him, 'show me your hands,' Adam complied, turned around, his hands were empty when he was shot in the chest at the hands of the officer."

    "He did not have a gun in his hand, contrary to the reports made earlier today," Weiss-Ortiz added."

    Have you watched the video?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,831 ✭✭✭Did you smash it


    Overheal wrote: »
    I don't see the gun in the video. Do you? I didn't catch anything showing where a gun was recovered. I did however definitively catch the moment at the end of the clip in the lawandcrime.com link where the dispatch orders all officers to turn off their body cameras.

    1


  • Registered Users Posts: 35,765 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde


    I don't even get the gun argument. It's the USA you have the right to bear arms, so I don't get these sissy cops

    '' omg he's got a gun, omg omg omg omg ahhhhh cries cries omg omg omg''

    wtf Is all that about.

    So what if someone has a gun, it's legal to have one. geez.


  • Registered Users Posts: 81,917 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Funny how it's always a kill shot with american cops. An innocent kids killed by a chicken sh it cop who fired before he saw his hands were empty.

    No, to be perfectly clear, it was after he saw his hands were empty.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,496 ✭✭✭irishgrover


    It looks like
    A.) The child had a gun and tossed it behind a fence
    B.) The cop told him to raise his hands
    C.) This child immediately complied with that order
    D.) The cop shot him dead, unarmed, with his arms in the air, and complying with the cops direct instruction.

    It also looks like the time between him tossing the gun and being shot was only a second or two. No doubt this will come into play...split second for decision making, cope thought he was armed, he thought his live was in danger, terrible tragedy etc etc

    Who knows what was going through the cops mind when he decided to pull the trigger.....but its terrible, a child is dead


This discussion has been closed.
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