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Discussion on sexism

1234568

Comments

  • #352
    CtevenSrowder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭CtevenSrowder


    pwurple wrote: »
    Maybe it was because I was posting on my phone. :cool:


    I'll quote this though, as it's another good example of something interesting. :)

    For context, this was about vocal minorities. Now, women are not a minority, nor are we vocal ENOUGH. But here, I'm being accused of being TOO vocal it seems.

    I assume you know that being too talkative is another jibe commonly thrown at women to shut us down. In conversations where we are not the largest contributors, we are told to shut up ALL. THE. TIME. Let the men talk. Not told to shut up for rule breaking, just for existing, for speaking up.

    I think i've been told to "stop it" here a couple of times now, including by an admin, and even as OP I've contributed fewer words than most.

    Interesting one eh?

    You are not accused of being too vocal. People disagree with you. You again are seeking to be offended.

    Noone is disagreeing with you 'so the men can talk'. This is just complete fabrication. A nonsense. Some of the 'dissenters' in this thread are women!

    Noone is accusing you of being too talkative, indeed, the only person who has brought up an individuals post number is this thread was you!

    Maybe you should stop viewing things through the lens of sex. Noone cares about your sex. Noone is disagreeing with you simply because you are a women. People aren't shutting you down. They are disagreeing with you. You need to figure out the difference.


  • #353
    Kimbot
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 18,693 Mod ✭✭✭✭Kimbot


    pwurple wrote: »
    Maybe it was because I was posting on my phone. :cool:


    I'll quote this though, as it's another good example of something interesting. :)

    For context, this was about vocal minorities. Now, women are not a minority, nor are we vocal ENOUGH. But here, I'm being accused of being TOO vocal it seems.

    I assume you know that being too talkative is another jibe commonly thrown at women to shut us down. In conversations where we are not the largest contributors, we are told to shut up ALL. THE. TIME. Let the men talk. Not told to shut up for rule breaking, just for existing, for speaking up.

    I think i've been told to "stop it" here a couple of times now, including by an admin, and even as OP I've contributed fewer words than most.

    Interesting one eh?

    So are you accusing an admin of boards of telling you to shut it because your female??


  • #354
    banie01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,932 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    banie01 wrote: »

    But for sake of providing the admin staff a good view of best practice?
    What community forum has a complete and coherent policy that you feel could offer a model for boards?
    What are its highpoints, and how could boards make it better?
    Have you forwarded your preferred policy or made definitive policy suggestions to the admin team on what/where the line is?
    On how those transgressing your proposed lines be actioned?
    Further, can that particular policy be adopted by boards without unduly limiting the level of discourse or placing an onerous burden on mods and staff?
    I know you said you had provided an example of the above earlier in thread, and I don't doubt you have.
    pwurple wrote: »
    I've already done that earlier in the thread. You probably didn't read it. It's been buried in this swamp.


    banie01 wrote: »
    I'll take a read through, and sorry I missed it :)

    But I've read back over the thread and likely thanks to my reading 4 things at once here to get ready for a lecture and some meetings, have managed to completely miss the obvious.
    I can only find a link from you to an article outlining examples of offensive language?

    Where is the example of best practice, e.g a community forum operating with the policy in place?
    Where is the example of your proposed policy?
    Is the policy transferable to Boards without placing onerous burdens on mods and admin staff?
    Where are your outlines on how transgressions of that policy best be addressed?

    Look I know there are a lot of questions there and it may feel targeted.
    It really isn't, I promise.
    It's an attempt on my part to glean a full and complete a picture of possible as to what possible outcome you want from the feedback thread.
    I can go and read your posts and make inferences, I don't want those inferences to be incorrect.

    It would also (speaking out of turn on my part) go a long towards giving the admins and staff a clearer idea of what your ultimate aim is?
    Other than asking for clarification on whether boards have formed a policy as yet.

    There have been mentions of policy, of mission statement but no examples yet that I saw (in my admittedly rushed look).
    I don't mean to be smart, dismissive or blasé about this point, but have you provided examples of those that I've missed?


  • #355
    Princess Calla
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,985 ✭✭✭Princess Calla


    pwurple wrote: »


    Fascinating. You know what though, not everyone is the same. Some people get fed up after a year of seeing a situation deteriorate and say something.

    Yes it is fascinating that not everyone is the same...thank God for that!

    You disagree with me and I disagree with you.

    I don't see a situation deteriorate to be honest. Yes I see problems but I see alot of "good eggs" too, and they out number the bad.

    If anything boards was alot more fun 10-15 years ago, I appreciate I've gotten older so my perception of what's funny will have shifted.


  • #356
    anewme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,020 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    pjohnson wrote: »

    You yourself didn't exactly treat women well (look above at Strawberry Milkshake post and how you turned on her)

    Like how you kept claiming no one but you had an issue with the lasagne comment.

    Just for clarity here, there was no turning on Strawberry Milkshake. .

    Read the posts. They are here in their entirety.

    I had an issue with the lasagne comment. She/he didnt.

    I put it to the Mods that those type of comments are sexist/misogynistic and should not be condoned if Boards wants to improve.


  • #357
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 77,505 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    anewme wrote: »
    Now, at this point, I am officially requesting that you direct further feedback that you have to the Mods.
    Please take your own advice. If you have a problem with a post or poster report and leave moderation to the mods.


  • #358
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    anewme wrote: »
    Just for clarity here, there was no turning on Strawberry Milkshake. .

    Read the posts. They are here in their entirety.

    I had an issue with the lasagne comment. She/he didnt.

    I put it to the Mods that those type of comments are sexist/misogynistic and should not be condoned if Boards wants to improve.

    And I put it to the mods that the “lasagne” post was not sexist.

    And I’ve read the entirety of your posts many times. One of them actually says...
    It’s not the lasagne person thats the real issue here.

    It's the people who believe lasagne persons post was not sexist.

    They are not chortling away.

    They are deadly serious.

    That's the core issue.

    Personally , I believe highlighting this plus the fat pig type comments clearly demonstrate there is a tolerance towards sexism here., not from Mods, but a small cohort of posters.

    That was directed at me because I didn’t agree with you. You deemed my opinion as a woman to be not as worthy as yours. Who’s the sexist now?


  • #359
    knucklehead6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,840 ✭✭✭knucklehead6


    Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »
    And I put it to the mods that the “lasagne” post was not sexist.

    And I’ve read the entirety of your posts many times. One of them actually says...



    That was directed at me because I didn’t agree with you. You deemed my opinion as a woman to be not as worthy as yours. Who’s the sexist now?


    In fairness to anewme I think that quoted comment was directed at me, as I was the one who mentioned the lasagna poster chortling away at the reaction their post had garnered


  • #360
    Leg End Reject
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,531 ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject


    There are many women posting here who disagree that the comment was sexist and misogynistic. However, no one condoned it at all. We also disagree that boards is unwelcoming to women.

    Linking claims of sexism here to a woman who was attacked, and to Graham Dwyer is hysterical. Boards cannot police thoughts, never mind actions in the real world.
    https://forumofgames.com/index.php




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  • #361
    Leg End Reject
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,531 ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject


    anewme wrote: »
    You are not keeping to the facts at all here.

    I quoted your posts as people were asking who was ok with or condoning the vile post. You said you were ok with the post, so why would you have an issue with your posts confirming that?

    because:

    QUOTE=Strawberry Milkshake;116789018]I see that comment as talking about 2 people who are scamming a system that’s there to help those who have nothing. I don’t see it as a comment against all women.

    QUOTE=Strawberry Milkshake;116792599]Because I am the same sex as those 2 chancers I should feel offended at the insults they received?
    Jog on and find someone else to educate.[/QUOTE]

    You wrote about women like me needing an education

    There is no reference at all to 'women like you" needing an education anywhere.

    There is no insult to you personally either.

    I put it to you then as I do now that the comment was vile and misogynistic and part of the problem on boards.

    Because someone is a 'Chancer' by your terms, there should not be open season to insult them, degrade them in the way that vile comment did referring their genetalia.

    No where was I rude to you, put you down, or call you a troll, perpetually offended or anything in that vein.[/quote]

    You said that people who disagreed about the post needed an education as it was evidence of the problem. So, that did include Strawberry Milkshake along with a lot of us.
    https://forumofgames.com/index.php




  • #362
    anewme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,020 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    [/QUOTE]
    That was directed at me because I didn’t agree with you. You deemed my opinion as a woman to be not as worthy as yours. Who’s the sexist now?[/QUOTE]
    knucklehead6 wrote: »
    In fairness to anewme I think that quoted comment was directed at me, as I was the one who mentioned the lasagna poster chortling away at the reaction their post had garnered

    The comment about chortling was directed at the poster who referenced chortling as they referenced above.

    The reason he said chortling away, was that the particular post was so nasty, the majority of people felt it was trolling and people said no one could find it ok.

    There is nothing sexist about what I've posted in this post.

    It does not mention women at all.

    Stop claiming sexism is levied at you when its not.


  • #363
    knucklehead6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,840 ✭✭✭knucklehead6


    This to me is condescension and it the type of thing that I find INCREDIBLY annoying

    https://news.sky.com/story/rebecca-welch-first-woman-appointed-to-referee-efl-game-praised-by-managers-12267257

    What it should read is person hired to do job does it well. Her Gender shouldn't come into it.

    Anymore than I think Gender Quotas should apply. I hate the very idea of them. If the best person for the job is male or female or one of the take your pick cool new genders, then hire them. Don't hire them or appoint them just to satisfy a group of people who say you need to have a certain amount of each gender to have a balanced viewpoint and representation.


  • #364
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    @anewme

    You really can’t see that you are being sexist against the women who hold a different view to you, can you? As per the article pwurple quoted, you have insulted our intelligence by asking how are we to be educated. You’ve also clearly stated that all genders can be sexist against each other. I mentioned how you have made me feel as a woman but you still fob it off. A famous line written by George Orwell springs to mind but replace animals with women.
    anewme wrote: »
    No, it does the opposite. It highlights there is an issue with sexism together with a lack if acknowledgement.

    Why do you think people here are saying the post was not sexist ?

    A number of posters here did not believe it to be so. Is that ignorance or deliberate?

    If posters cannot see obvious sexist posts, that indicates there is a wider issue. This post and the pig posts demonstrate the very worst of boards.

    Yet there are defenders.

    How should they be educated?
    pwurple wrote: »
    Yes, the usual personal insults came out.

    For those asking for reference material on sexist language, here is one on sexist slurs.
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-019-01095-z

    Gravel donkey, all the comments about porn being their income stream, being pissed on in Dubai for payment etc would pretty clearly fall into that.

    “These terms include those insulting someone’s appearance (e.g., “ugly”), intellect (e.g., “stupid”), sexual experience (e.g., “promiscuous”), mental stability (e.g., “crazy”), and age (“old”). Messages enforcing beauty norms tend to be particularly negative. In sum, hostile, sexist tweets are strategic in nature. They aim to promote traditional, cultural beliefs about femininity, such as beauty ideals, and they shame victims by accusing them of falling short of these standards.”
    anewme wrote: »
    The education is not required for the poster posting for the shock value (maybe or maybe they believe this)

    It's for the posters unable/unwilling to acknowledge that it is sexist and have more of an issue with people objecting to it than the poor content itself.
    anewme wrote: »
    No, you've people saying it was ok because of the people involved. Strawberry Milkshake for example condones all insults. They dont think its insulting. They are fine with it.

    And you've posters saying what if it's TRUE?

    Are they neanderthal too ?
    anewme wrote: »
    I'm surprised you are asking this. It would be well recognised.

    Of course women can be sexist and misogynistic towards other women and all genders

    As men can be sexist and misandristic against other men and all genders.

    I had a differing opinion to you on the “lasagne” post. I respect your right as a female to how you perceive it and I have never questioned your outlook on it. But it’s now time to acknowledge that you respect the rights of the other female perspectives on this thread too.


  • #365
    Leg End Reject
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,531 ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject


    I was quoted in that too, Strawberry Milkshake. I found the comment juvenile and are therefore deemed to be in need of education.

    The funny thing is none of us would have even remembered it had it not been used as a stick to beat us with.
    https://forumofgames.com/index.php




  • #366
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Leg End Reject wrote: »
    I was quoted in that too, Strawberry Milkshake. I found the comment juvenile and are therefore deemed to be in need of education.

    The funny thing is none of us would have even remembered it had it not been used as a stick to beat us with.

    Exactly.


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  • #367
    Tokyo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,655 ✭✭✭✭Tokyo


    Admin:

    Okay everybody - while there is a lot of validity in much of what is posted here, the posts have become far too personalized and has become a debate between groups of posters. Nothing wrong with that, but it is no longer what I could consider feedback.

    I'm asking politely - can we please stick to actual feedback here. I don't want to start singling out individuals here, but it's getting to the point where I will have no choice. There are other areas of the site (somewhat ironically, CA) where the debate between different posters ideals can be held.


  • #368
    TheValeyard
    Registered Users Posts: 12,728 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    Tokyo wrote: »
    Admin:

    Okay everybody - while there is a lot of validity in much of what is posted here, the posts have become far too personalized and has become a debate between groups of posters. Nothing wrong with that, but it is no longer what I could consider feedback.

    I'm asking politely - can we please stick to actual feedback here. I don't want to start singling out individuals here, but it's getting to the point where I will have no choice. There are other areas of the site (somewhat ironically, CA) where the debate between different posters ideals can be held.

    Things are grand.
    Mods and admins doing the best they can.
    Not possible to please everybody.
    Keep up the good work.
    /out.

    All eyes on Kursk. Slava Ukraini.



  • #369
    Leg End Reject
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,531 ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject


    I would suggest that a post that has been actioned or deleted should not be quoted after the action. It's in essence "Feeding the trolls" or allowing someone to continue to "Be a dick" even if they've left the discussion.
    https://forumofgames.com/index.php




  • #370
    knucklehead6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,840 ✭✭✭knucklehead6


    Tokyo wrote: »
    Admin:

    Okay everybody - while there is a lot of validity in much of what is posted here, the posts have become far too personalized and has become a debate between groups of posters. Nothing wrong with that, but it is no longer what I could consider feedback.

    I'm asking politely - can we please stick to actual feedback here. I don't want to start singling out individuals here, but it's getting to the point where I will have no choice. There are other areas of the site (somewhat ironically, CA) where the debate between different posters ideals can be held.


    And on that note, my feedback is to request that the mod/admin team DO NOT set up a set of rules/guidelines as to what constitutes one of the '-isms' in society.

    Locking the people who help run this site into a rigid structure like that will result in rules lawyering where some people are deliberately sailing very close to the line and not crossing it all the while saying "but i didn't break the rules so i'm fine" and therefore being able to argue that any sanctions applied against them are unfair, even when everyone else knows exactly what they are at.

    It will result in increased confusion, as exemplified earlier on where my use of They and Them was taken by one person to mean two specific posters, when everyone else could see it was the general use of they and them.


  • #371
    knucklehead6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,840 ✭✭✭knucklehead6


    Leg End Reject wrote: »
    I would suggest that a post that has been actioned or deleted should not be quoted after the action. It's in essence "Feeding the trolls" or allowing someone to continue to "Be a dick" even if they've left the discussion.

    And certainly not multiple times in a feedback thread


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  • #372
    anewme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,020 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    Tokyo wrote: »
    Admin:

    Okay everybody - while there is a lot of validity in much of what is posted here, the posts have become far too personalized and has become a debate between groups of posters. Nothing wrong with that, but it is no longer what I could consider feedback.

    I'm asking politely - can we please stick to actual feedback here. I don't want to start singling out individuals here, but it's getting to the point where I will have no choice. There are other areas of the site (somewhat ironically, CA) where the debate between different posters ideals can be held.

    Noted and apologies, posted before I read your post.


  • #373
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    Tokyo wrote: »
    Admin:

    Okay everybody - while there is a lot of validity in much of what is posted here, the posts have become far too personalized and has become a debate between groups of posters. Nothing wrong with that, but it is no longer what I could consider feedback.

    I'm asking politely - can we please stick to actual feedback here. I don't want to start singling out individuals here, but it's getting to the point where I will have no choice. There are other areas of the site (somewhat ironically, CA) where the debate between different posters ideals can be held.

    Awesome thanks. :)


    So, any idea on when there will be a comment on what I’ve asked?


  • #374
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,394 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    Admin:

    Fr Dougal, Dr Turk Turkleton and CtevenChowder please don't post in this thread again.

    If anyone else posts disingenuous digs or "hilarious" thanks whoring one liners I will be doing more than just deleting their posts the next time.


  • #375
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,102 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    anewme wrote: »
    Theres different opinions and then there is abuse. This is one post I reported, which was subsequently deleted.

    F***ing gravel donkeys need new faces and bodies never mind tits.the state of them.fannies like a punched lasagne prob

    Above post thanked by other posters who share that view.


    Loads of posts about tits, their looks, they should be minding their kids etc.

    These posts are not different opinions, they are misogynistic and sexist. Removing them is allowing it to look like people are imagining things.

    Many of the women who posted in The Ladies Lounge thread are not posting in the Dubai thread. I wonder is it for the reasons outlined in TLL thread and Ladies fashions thread?

    Yeah I think this policy of removing posts is wrong. It means offenders can often not realise their post was deleted and go on thinking its perfectly acceptable. It means those who give feedback then look stupid cause the evidence is gone.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #376
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,102 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    I think the boards wide policy of moderators deleting posts without notification or indication is a terrible action for this whole forum.

    Posters who have had posts removed are not notified that their posts are removed (I've experienced this myself).
    Therefore I don't see the point, as the posters behaviour wont change...

    Also, posts which are replies to "fresh air" look off Topic and ridiculous.

    Who came up with this as an acceptable moderation action???

    It's obviously not a full thought through policy

    Yes completely agree. Its a way of hiding the problem and not addressing it straight up.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #377
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,102 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    99nsr125 wrote: »
    Is that not directed at two people in particular not an entire group.

    It could be more constructive but does potray the ire of how people feel by what the two did.

    Criticism is not sexism but the wanting to be treated differently or preferentially because of your sex is.

    That isnt criticism. Its sick nasty mysogyny.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #378
    99nsr125
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭99nsr125


    Annasopra wrote: »
    That isnt criticism. Its sick nasty mysogyny.

    We've had this debate already and the overwhelming opinion is you're wrong


  • #379
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,102 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    99nsr125 wrote: »

    Perhaps you are seeing sexism where there is none and conflating being challenged on a point as challenging a sex.

    Challenging someone of a different sex isn't sexism

    But not challenging them because they are a different sex IS, it is censorship and repression.

    Most relevant though this is an anonymous forum we don't know people's sex which allows debate to flow with logic and evidence primarily.

    Making comments about peoples appearance and genitals and comparing them to animals is sexism and mysogynistic

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #380
    99nsr125
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭99nsr125


    Annasopra wrote: »
    Making comments about peoples appearance and genitals and comparing them to animals is sexism and mysogynistic

    Perhaps you should seek information in the thread rather than repeating something that's already been refuted


  • #381
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,102 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    99nsr125 wrote: »
    Perhaps you should seek information in the thread rather than repeating something that's already been refuted

    Are you a moderator?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • #382
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    99nsr125 wrote: »
    We've had this debate already and the overwhelming opinion is you're wrong

    Has someone appointed you judge jury and executioner here, or are you just expressing some male privilege? :pac:


  • #383
    Shield
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 9,810 CMod ✭✭✭✭Shield


    Annasopra wrote: »
    sexism and mysogynistic

    I fear that these words are very close to losing their impact because they are thrown around so frequently.

    When they lose their impact, people will become numb to the accusations. We have to find a way out of this.

    “The loss of a common language and the breakdown of communication entails the disintegration of community” - Terence Ball (When Words Lose Their Meaning).


  • #384
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    Shield wrote: »
    I fear that these words are very close to losing their impact because they are thrown around so frequently.

    When they lose their impact, people will become numb to the accusations. We have to find a way out of this.

    “The loss of a common language and the breakdown of communication entails the disintegration of community” - Terence Ball (When Words Lose Their Meaning).


    I think it's pretty clear that plenty of the language examples posted in this thread, and the one in the original post here are clearly misognystic and sexist. Maybe you missed anewme's posts? :D

    As you're here though can you clarify.... is this the "official" response on this feedback thread?


    Or is that yet to come?


    Yes, I'll hold.


  • #385
    Shield
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 9,810 CMod ✭✭✭✭Shield


    No need to hold.
    pwurple wrote: »
    As you're here though can you clarify.... is this the "official" response on this feedback thread?
    No. I do not moderate this forum, and I am not a site administrator. You can see a list of the forums I moderate under my name. Like you, I am treated as regular poster here, and in every other forum where I am not a moderator.


  • #386
    anewme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,020 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    Shield wrote: »
    I fear that these words are very close to losing their impact because they are thrown around so frequently.

    When they lose their impact, people will become numb to the accusations. We have to find a way out of this.

    “The loss of a common language and the breakdown of communication entails the disintegration of community” - Terence Ball (When Words Lose Their Meaning).

    The request here is in respect of the issues raised in the thread about the two women going to Dubai (and the language used), and in addition the concerns raised in the ladies Lounge thread giving the womens fashions thread as an example. It is not in respect of any one post or thread, though clear examples have been given.

    There are numerous other threads, why do women, why are women, why do fat women, why do old women...with the punchline being that all these threads are used to bash women, the Ladies fashions thread being a case in point, it was not about fashions but comments on genetalia.


  • #387
    Tokyo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,655 ✭✭✭✭Tokyo


    pwurple wrote: »
    As you're here though can you clarify.... is this the "official" response on this feedback thread?


    Or is that yet to come?


    Yes, I'll hold.

    Being brutally honest here for a second, it's exactly condescension like this that makes me go 'f*ck it, why do I bother' when it comes to the feedback forum. You expect the topic to be treated by respondents with the gravitas it deserves, yet you feel that your own tone of engagement should get whatever latitude you see fit. It doesn't work that way.

    For purely pragmatic reasons, my ability to engage with the site in the past six or seven days has been limited to being sporadic, and the topic deserves a more lengthy response than I have been able to provide in that time.

    I don't speak for the site as a whole, but as the admin who has engaged with this thread from the get-go, I will be responding to your question as it certainly deserves a response - in my own time and when it's practical for me to do so. But please note, you have asked the question, and it will be answered. However should you try to browbeat the point again before that time, I will ask you not to post in the thread again.


  • #388
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,102 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Shield wrote: »
    I fear that these words are very close to losing their impact because they are thrown around so frequently.

    When they lose their impact, people will become numb to the accusations. We have to find a way out of this.

    “The loss of a common language and the breakdown of communication entails the disintegration of community” - Terence Ball (When Words Lose Their Meaning).

    I understand what you are saying. Yes these words were used a lot in this thread. This is feedback though surely the point is to listen to the feedback being raised. Here when the initial feedback was raised many came into dismiss it and deny it completely. And so those words got thrown around frequently because the response was in itself linked to the overall points being raised. Of course when the issues are denied and dismissed so vehemently there will be a counter reaction to restate them again and again. But again this continuous denial and dismissal actually wants to create the polarisation and to undermine the original feedback by making those who bought it up react. Its an attempt to undermine by those who dont like the feedback.

    Perhaps the admins and staff could step back and look at this in the whole in the context of A: the previous ladies lounge discussion on sexism and frustration expressed here that it seemed to achieve nothing B: attempts to use the feedback thread against posters raising concerns, C: this discussion and how it became polarised and posters didnt always speak with each other or consider one anothers points.


    I think maybe in this case it would indicate to me that there should be a look at the feedback forum in terms of moderation. It seems to have only 2 moderators and perhaps it needs one or two more. I think if this thread had been guided a bit more by a moderator in terms of moderation only and not responding to the feedback it could potentially have been less polarised.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #389
    Omackeral
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    Annasopra wrote: »
    I understand what you are saying. Yes these words were used a lot in this thread. This is feedback though surely the point is to listen to the feedback being raised. Here when the initial feedback was raised many came into dismiss it and deny it completely. And so those words got thrown around frequently because the response was in itself linked to the overall points being raised. Of course when the issues are denied and dismissed so vehemently there will be a counter reaction to restate them again and again. But again this continuous denial and dismissal actually wants to create the polarisation and to undermine the original feedback by making those who bought it up react. Its an attempt to undermine by those who dont like the feedback.

    On the point, it would seem that most of those offering feedback here go against the grain of what the OP has brought up, as in they are more than happy with how the mod team deal have dealt with the issues raised. So by your own admission, surely we listen to that feedback?


  • #390
    anewme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,020 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    Omackeral wrote: »
    On the point, it would seem that most of those offering feedback here go against the grain of what the OP has brought up, as in they are more than happy with how the mod team deal have dealt with the issues raised. So by your own admission, surely we listen to that feedback?

    The thread in the Ladies Lounge said the exact opposite.

    The posters there also said they avoid other areas of the site and people have left because of it, so their views are not taken into account. Their views are on the Ladies Lounge thread. The fact they did not post here as they would be rounded on is part of the feedback. That thread needs to be factored in here as part of the feedback.

    It should be noted that some of the posters giving feedback here have themselves been carded for sexist and misogynistic posts - therefore they will not want any changes.

    Calling for a greater transparency in the interests of all has to be a positive step.


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  • #391
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Acting as if all posters agree on what in each context constitutes actionable sexism or misogyny is imo facetious.

    And it's likewise presumptious to act as if, in the absence of agreement, the bar is whatever you personally- or the consensus of a specific thread in the ladies lounge- decide it is

    It doesn't seem to me that in this thread we are seeing feedback that mods can usefully use, because its lobbying for punishment on disagreeing with three posters who appear to be in quite a small opinion group


  • #392
    knucklehead6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,840 ✭✭✭knucklehead6


    anewme wrote: »
    Now again here, I will ask that you address further feedback to the Mods, if that's ok with you.

    The post above, indicates that the use of 'them' was not generalised whatsoever and was directed at two posters only.

    Despite numerous times saying that this thread is also about previous thread in the Ladies Lounge and the Ladies Fashion thread, you claim that there is no sexism, but later claim not to have read the threads referred to. So you are disputing something that you havent actually read. Thsts not in the spirit of feedback and I'd ask Mods/Admin to consider this as well.
    knucklehead6 wrote: »
    Ok find a post where I have said there is no sexism.
    anewme wrote: »
    The thread in the Ladies Lounge said the exact opposite.

    The posters there also said they avoid other areas of the site and people have left because of it, so their views are not taken into account. Their views are on the Ladies Lounge thread. The fact they did not post here as they would be rounded on is part of the feedback. That thread needs to be factored in here as part of the feedback.

    It should be noted that some of the posters giving feedback here have themselves been carded for sexist and misogynistic posts - therefore they will not want any changes.

    Calling for a greater transparency in the interests of all has to be a positive step.


    It should also be noted that you've flung accusations around here like confetti at a wedding and have yet to backup or provide proof of those claims.



    Transparency on Mod actions is an oft demanded never granted thing on this site. The people who volunteer here to keep the place running shouldn't have to defend their actions to us, the general users. Oversight is provided by Cmods and ultimately Admins. A few people on this thread want to lock the mods down into a strict set of rules, when "Don't be a dick" allows much more leeway in the interpretation of someone's posts, and whether or not they are just expressing their point badly, or they are indeed being a dick and as such worthy of sanction. They also want to use these new rules to demand that mods defend their actions. This is not the way forward for the site.

    ON that note, I'm bowing out of this conversation. I've provided my feedback, I'd like to think that the people with responsibility for running the site will take heed of what I, and others have said.


  • #393
    EmmetSpiceland
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,016 ✭✭✭✭EmmetSpiceland


    I, personally, think the “issue” really comes down to CA vs the rest of boards. I know, I know, the CA users will say, ad nauseam, ‘there’s no sexism on boards!’ or ‘there’s no racism on boards! Show me! Show me where there’s racism! I’ve yet to see this!!’ but that’s just nonsense, utter nonsense.

    They’ll claim the mods deal with anything “untoward” but they’re well aware that the mods are stretched and things will go unnoticed. Talking out both sides of their mouths.

    I really do think that a warning, or outline, of what to expect from the “Current Affairs” forum wouldn’t go astray. Just stating what members can expect to encounter in there and to report if they feel anything has “crossed the line” but, also, to remember that the forum is a dung heap, or fly paper, that serves in keeping the, more normal, areas of the site clear from that sort of content so this may the reporter post may go “unchecked”.

    With this “relaxing” of policing in CA I would expect the moderation to tighten over the rest of the site, particularly in AH. The fact you had CA users squealing, and whining, that the users in the “Ladies Lounge” forum were complaining there was sexism on the site was, quite frankly, bizarre.

    It’s time that the CA users accept that their forum is “overrun” with racism, sexism, homophobia, Islamophobia, transphobia and I could go on. If we can keep all “that” in there and away from the, normal, parts of the site I think we’d be doing well.

    Any “crack down” on the CA forum would be a disaster. You’d have these users flocking to any, normal, forum so that they can throw out casual digs at trans people, travellers, and, of course, women. It’s really not needed, nor wanted, anywhere else.

    “It is not blood that makes you Irish but a willingness to be part of the Irish nation” - Thomas Davis



  • #394
    anewme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,020 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    knucklehead6 wrote: »
    It should also be noted that you've flung accusations around here like confetti at a wedding and have yet to backup or provide proof of those claims.



    Transparency on Mod actions is an oft demanded never granted thing on this site. The people who volunteer here to keep the place running shouldn't have to defend their actions to us, the general users. Oversight is provided by Cmods and ultimately Admins. A few people on this thread want to lock the mods down into a strict set of rules, when "Don't be a dick" allows much more leeway in the interpretation of someone's posts, and whether or not they are just expressing their point badly, or they are indeed being a dick and as such worthy of sanction. They also want to use these new rules to demand that mods defend their actions. This is not the way forward for the site.

    ON that note, I'm bowing out of this conversation. I've provided my feedback, I'd like to think that the people with responsibility for running the site will take heed of what I, and others have said.

    I've not "flung" any accusations around.

    I've given numerous threads and examples and quotes, both here and in the Ladies Lounge. I've also referenced the Ladies Fashions thread so it is unfair to claim otherwise.

    As respect of being a dick - that is way too open to intrepretation. The below is not in respect of this thread, but in the overall interest of transparency.

    For example, on the Who lives here thread - people are posting people's exact addresses and then saying stuff like their furnishings fell off the back of a truck and all types of other allegations about pie balds etc. Also posts there with people laughing at people's homes after seeing their RIP notices.

    That to me is pure dickish behaviour
    I questioned the back of a truck comment and you said it was ok because it was followed by a smiley face. So clearly my idea of dickish behaviour and yours is very different. Everyone else would also have differing opinions on that.

    So there is a need for a clearer definition.

    It should actually make Mods jobs easier - either there is a problem with a post or there is not.

    Anway, will leave it with the Mods/Admin's/Site Managers as a collective - there is enough for them to review as a group.


  • #395
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    But please note, you have asked the question, and it will be answered.

    Thanks for that. If there is some background process behind feedback, I am unaware of it, which is probably why you see me popping my head in every few days to check progress and ask what's going on.

    Tokyo wrote: »
    Being brutally honest here for a second....


    Let ME continue to be honest then too. I have no idea who is responsible here in Feedback. Maybe it's transparent to you, but I can't see that from the outside. That's why I am asking. I have zero expectation from you personally. My expectation is that *someone* responds, eventually.

    You are inferring a tone, but I assure you none is intended. I can add smiley faces to soften my comments up, but honestly that's not my style. I speak plainly, always have. There are heaps of other condescending posts too btw, many directed at me, but only mine is picked out as being too cheeky. Do you see any bias?


    I don't speak for the site as a whole
    That's fine, and other moderators have said similar. When I see someone who is tagged as a mod, as an admin etc, I don't know in what capacity they are posting. How am I to actually tell?


    However should you try to browbeat the point again before that time.
    There are close to 400 comments in this thread. It's obviously a topic of interest to a lot of posters, and I appreciate that. However, what is the feedback forum for? I check in , similar frequency as you probably, every couple of days. If I see another 50+ posts, I take a look to see if there's an update. If there isn't, I pipe up with a reminder of why I opened this in the first place. Or, if there is a mod/admin commenting, I'll ask directly if this is the "position" the site is taking on sexism. I think that's fair enough tbh, and what else would you expect of me? I clearly have enough of an interest to raise it in the first place and create the thread.


    I've said I'm here and I will continue to wait. I mean that sincerely. I don't care if it takes another month, 2 months, whatever. I'll be here. Don't take that as pressure, or even a personal expectation from you. It's is what it is. Just as I've written... I will wait. That was afterall, the purpose this feedback thread. I'm sorry you feel that this is browbeating. It's not intended to be.


  • #396
    Shield
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 9,810 CMod ✭✭✭✭Shield


    In fairness, I did actually answer this in my earlier reply to you, but for the sake of clarity to you and other confused users, I'm happy to answer it again:

    You can see a list of the forums that a Boards moderator is responsible for under his/her name, where it says "Mod:".

    We have an extensive post in our Newbies & FAQ forum explaining this here at point number 5.

    I hope this answers your question.
    pwurple wrote: »
    That's fine, and other moderators have said similar. When I see someone who is tagged as a mod, as an admin etc, I don't know in what capacity they are posting. How am I to actually tell?


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  • #397
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,847 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Shield wrote: »
    In fairness, I did actually answer this in my earlier reply to you, but for the sake of clarity to you and other confused users, I'm happy to answer it again:

    You can see a list of the forums that a Boards moderator is responsible for under his/her name, where it says "Mod:".

    We have an extensive post in our Newbies & FAQ forum explaining this here at point number 5.

    I hope this answers your question.

    Not if they're posting by phone/touch site. It's actually quite difficult for users to determine who is a poster/ mod (and what forums they mod)/ admin etc on touch as neither their posts or profiles give any indication.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #398
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    Shield wrote: »
    In fairness, I did actually answer this in my earlier reply to you, but for the sake of clarity to you and other confused users, I'm happy to answer it again:

    You can see a list of the forums that a Boards moderator is responsible for under his/her name, where it says "Mod:".

    We have an extensive post in our Newbies & FAQ forum explaining this here at point number 5.

    I hope this answers your question.

    Not exactly.

    Who is responsible for responding to this feedback?

    Being a mod of the helpdesk forum doesn't make you responsible for the standards on the whole site, does it?

    So, Who would that be?


  • #399
    Deub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,380 ✭✭✭Deub


    pwurple wrote: »
    Who is responsible for responding to this feedback?

    The answer is in Tokyo’ post which you replied to.


  • #400
    anewme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,020 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    Deub wrote: »
    The answer is in Tokyo’ post which you replied to.

    I believe the question to be more in respect of the wider site.
    How is the feedback actioned - is there an official process of dealing with it, 4 eyes principal etc.


  • #401
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    Deub wrote: »
    The answer is in Tokyo’ post which you replied to.

    As I see no further response from Shield or anyone else to contradict this for a few days, I will comment again.

    In your condescending post (see, another invisible one for ya), do you mean this sentence? “ I don't speak for the site as a whole, but as the admin who has engaged with this thread from the get-go, I will be responding to your question as it certainly deserves a response”

    If you did, “I don’t speak for the site as a whole” pretty clearly means they are not responsible for any policy.


    Therefore the question remains unanswered.


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