Vaccine Megathread - See OP for threadbans

IRISHSPORTSGUY · 15-04-2021 10:44AM

Godot. wrote: »

Surely our lot aren't going to restrict J&J based on age? We'll never be done if they do that.

Please not again. Politicians should impose a sense of proportion on science not be enthralled to it. The rewards from hundreds of thousands of more vaccinated people far outweighs the risks of very rare blood clots in one in a million people.

15-04-2021 10:47AM

How have we reached a point where it's preferable for a greater number of people die from Covid unnecessarily than from a rare reaction to the vaccine that could have saved them. That's before we get into long Covid, which knowing young people suffering from it can be life changing. I just don't understand it and it's a world wide issue. Fear of criticism is crippling out response.

BigMo1 · 15-04-2021 10:51AM

poolboy wrote: »

How have we reached a point where it's preferable for a greater number of people die from Covid unnecessarily than from a rare reaction to the vaccine that could have saved them. That's before we get into long Covid, which knowing young people suffering from it can be life changing. I just don't understand it and it's a world wide issue. Fear of criticism is crippling out response.

Yes. And that isn't even taking into consideration the huge impact lockdowns and restrictions are having on collective mental health or the longer term economic impact of prolonging these measures.

ACitizenErased · 15-04-2021 10:53AM

Canada has announced it is continuing with unrestricted use of the AstraZeneca vaccine as the benefits continue to outweigh the risks

crossman47 · 15-04-2021 10:53AM

Hurrache wrote: »

Seriously, they've made it pretty straightforward to do it a number of ways, don't be a reverse Maude Flaunders looking for holes for the geriatrics at a stretch.

We're a great nation of whingers. I got my first Pfizer jab recently at a very well organised clinic in Dublin 24. Taken on time, waited 15 mins until let go. Later I saw a woman complaining she had to wait outside. If she did, she must have turned up early and not just in time as requested. There were chairs inside for a limited number but these were for the next 15 minute slot.

Jinglejangle69 · 15-04-2021 10:55AM

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Can 67 year olds register today? I know it says Saturday but wondering if it actually stops you.

I wonder when the system will generate the appointments. You would imagine they will start today for appointments next week?

Still loads of over 70s and medically vulnerable haven't been vaccinated.

2-3 weeks at least.

crossman47 · 15-04-2021 10:57AM

poolboy wrote: »

How have we reached a point where it's preferable for a greater number of people die from Covid unnecessarily than from a rare reaction to the vaccine that could have saved them. That's before we get into long Covid, which knowing young people suffering from it can be life changing. I just don't understand it and it's a world wide issue. Fear of criticism is crippling out response.

Its not fear of criticism, its fear of litigation. We have ambulance chasing lawyers just waiting for the first case of a clot and they'll be off to the courts. Harris made a terrible mistake over the cervical check issue by running with the mob and not robustly defending a good system. That has, in part, left an open door for these lawyers.

Micky 32 · 15-04-2021 10:57AM

https://twitter.com/laoneill111/status/1382631973739491328?s=21

Turtwig · 15-04-2021 11:00AM

Furze99 wrote: »

If these were normal times, it'd be taken off the market as a precaution.

It would be temporarily suspended at best. It wouldn't be taken off the market. Far more higher risk medicines that are linked to fatalities remain on the market.

The difference here is a vaccine is for somebody who is not yet sick. So the ethics are slightly different but not by all that much. Many people take medications to prevent them getting sick. They've usually an identified risk and the medication is balanced against that. Even if in some cases it can prove fatal.

is_that_so · 15-04-2021 11:00AM

Micky 32 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/laoneill111/status/1382631973739491328?s=21

Whisht Luke, whisht!

Saying nothing sometimes says the most - Emily Dickinson

15-04-2021 11:01AM

ACitizenErased wrote: »

Canada has announced it is continuing with unrestricted use of the AstraZeneca vaccine as the benefits continue to outweigh the risks

Covid rates in Canada are 3x ours and growing rapidly. They also have a higher % of older people, so even though they have roughly the same proportion of vaccinations complete, they have more vulnerable left to do. If we had the same rates and growth I think our decision would have been similar.

PabloAndRoy · 15-04-2021 11:02AM

ACitizenErased wrote: »

Canada has announced it is continuing with unrestricted use of the AstraZeneca vaccine as the benefits continue to outweigh the risks

Canada in common sense decision making shock!

Whats wrong with this country? Aren't there loads of medications that have very low risk of serious side effects? We don't stop administering them, we just tell people of the very very low risks.

ITT people calling the AZ vaccine "unsafe". FFS! Did you win the lotto last night? Or last week, or any time in the last 50 times you did it? Do you understand what one in a million means? Would you rather die from COVID?

muddypuppy · 15-04-2021 11:04AM

Micky 32 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/laoneill111/status/1382631973739491328?s=21

Well, cases are about -95% here too (~7000 peak to ~400), and hospitals are -90% (~2000 peak to ~180).

is_that_so · 15-04-2021 11:06AM

Deleted User wrote: »

So you have to be registered with a GP in order to use the portal? Or is there a "I don't have a GP" option?

I moved back to Ireland coincidentally just before the pandemic started and haven't registered with a GP yet.

If you are in the over 60s it'd be fairly unusual not to have one. There is a helpline as well.

All you need to register according to the vaccine page are the following

- a mobile phone number
- an email address
- your PPS number – here's how to find your PPS number
- your Eircode – you can find your Eircode here or you can enter your address in the registration system

EDIT: From their help page

If you cannot find your GP, or are not registered with a GP, you can choose the "I am not registered with a GP" option on the GP screen.

funnydoggy · 15-04-2021 11:06AM

PabloAndRoy wrote: »

ITT people calling the AZ vaccine "unsafe". FFS! Did you win the lotto last night? Or last week, or any time in the last 50 times you did it? Do you understand what one in a million means? Would you rather die from COVID?

Don't go on the Irish subreddit.. it's kinda frightening the amount of fear out there with AZ. Definitely not people's faults IMO as messaging wasn't great but yeah. It's a very noisy crowd.

Klonker · 15-04-2021 11:07AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Covid rates in Canada are 3x ours and growing rapidly. They also have a higher % of older people, so even though they have roughly the same proportion of vaccinations complete, they have more vulnerable left to do. If we had the same rates and growth I think our decision would have been similar.

I don't think NIAC should of based their decision on current covid rates in the country. Its like them saying we'd rather longer restrictions than the risk of the AZ vaccine and that shouldn't be their decision to make.

Hurrache · 15-04-2021 11:08AM

ACitizenErased wrote: »

Canada has announced it is continuing with unrestricted use of the AstraZeneca vaccine as the benefits continue to outweigh the risks

No surprise though as they have serious problems with supply of any vaccine. Basically a case of beggars can't be choosers.

PabloAndRoy wrote: »

Whats wrong with this country?

Nothing. We, and many other states, can afford a suspension of the use of AZ because it's a minor percentage of the vaccines we're using.

titan18 · 15-04-2021 11:08AM

is_that_so wrote: »

It's not new at all, Reid is just too nice to say we'll get round to you later means back of the queue. I really don't see the issue here at all. The 65-69 group will be starting very shortly. You either want the vaccine or you don't. If you do than you take it when offered. If for whatever reason you don't the mass vaccination system cannot suit people and you can't really pick dates or the vaccine.

Might not be new on the dont want a particular vaccine then back of the queue but the decision for it to only be used on one particular age group is (I mean logically if it's not safe for someone who's 59, why is it safe for a 60 year old and they messed up as at the start it wasn't safe for anyone over 70). Add then that other countries are going no it's not safe for our 60 year olds, like Denmark, and I'm amazed how anyone doesn't see why people would be getting skeptical of the AZ vaccine. It being the cheapest one and all the issues around manufacturing doesn't help either.

The stick approach only works if they don't have mass refusals. If something like 20% of the 60s (and i don't know what the percentage will be but there definitely will be people refusing it) then the government has an issue as how do you leave that many people who are a higher risk unvaccinated and vaccinate less risky people instead.

Never mind, that basically threatening that one particular age group to take it or else you wait and take your chances with covid has to be legally dubious that someone is giving their consent properly.

Micky 32 · 15-04-2021 11:10AM

muddypuppy wrote: »

Well, cases are about -95% here too (~7000 peak to ~400), and hospitals are -90% (~2000 peak to ~180).

Yeah it’s great, vaccinating the health care workers and a lot of the old/vulnerable in this country has made a difference already .Great to see . Shows what these vaccines are capable of especially once we get the masses are done.

Turtwig · 15-04-2021 11:11AM

Micky 32 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/laoneill111/status/1382631973739491328?s=21

How does this data show widening the gap between doses worked? It shows a reduction in all relevant disease indicators. It doesn't provide any details on the contributory factors for this reduction.

PabloAndRoy · 15-04-2021 11:13AM

funnydoggy wrote: »

Don't go on the Irish subreddit.. it's kinda frightening the amount of fear out there with AZ. Definitely not people's faults IMO as messaging wasn't great but yeah. It's a very noisy crowd.

I unsubbed from r/Ireland years ago ... a shocking crowd.

I agree on the messaging. Very poor leadership. As a parent would you say "You are not allowed outside as there is a very small chance of you catching a bug of some sort, perhaps fatal".

titan18 · 15-04-2021 11:14AM

Turtwig wrote: »

How does this data show widening the gap between doses worked? It shows a reduction in all relevant disease indicators. It doesn't provide any details on the contributory factors for this reduction.

Ya, we won't really know until until the next few weeks. If nothing kicks off with their reopening, its only then you know that the one dose is fine.

15-04-2021 11:14AM

Furze99 wrote: »

It's a straight threat and citizens don't like being threatened. Lot of people inc 60-69 are not anti vax per se but vaccine wary. I'd be one of the latter, happy to take it if all adds up. But here we have a vaccine that several states and health authorities have expressed some concerns about. If these were normal times, it'd be taken off the market as a precaution. These are not normal times, there is a shortage of vaccine, the government needs to be seen to be making progress and there is spare AZ vaccine to be used up. In these circumstances, of course 60-69 yr olds are going to look askance - why should we be asked to take this chance, no matter how small it is or isn't.

If a substantial percentage of 60-69 cohort decline this offer, then the gov has a problem when other vaccines come in. They can't argue on the one hand that these people have a higher rate of issues with Covid, but put these to back of queue whilst jabbing themselves & 20 yr olds. Won't wash.

The AZ vaccine is not unsafe for 60+. The clotting risk is specific to younger people, which is why the age restriction has been put in place.

NIAC were at pains to emphasise that the AZ vaccine is safe, even for under 60s, and that these risks are tiny. They are being ultra cautious because we have supply of other vaccines to cover the age groups at risk of clotting.

It is extremely unwise for someone in their 60s to refuse the AZ vaccine. According to the Oxford calculator, a 60 year old with no underlying conditions has a 1 in 1,600 chance of being hospitalised with covid, and a 1 in 12,000 chance of dying from it. NIAC stated that 1 in 1,000,000 people are likely to die from clotting associated with the AZ vaccine. We know that the vast majority of these deaths are in younger people. Huge numbers of over 60s have had AZ and the clotting case numbers are miniscule.

So in summary:

1 in 12,000 chance of dying from Covid.
1 in 1,000,000 chance of dying from a clot from AZ.

You are at least 83 times more likely to die from covid than a clot from AZ.

.42. · 15-04-2021 11:14AM

Is the Blood Clotting with J&J and AZ only effecting Women?

Do we know the ratio of Male V Female who have been effected?

Russman · 15-04-2021 11:14AM

titan18 wrote: »

Might not be new on the dont want a particular vaccine then back of the queue but the decision for it to only be used on one particular age group is (I mean logically if it's not safe for someone who's 59, why is it safe for a 60 year old and they messed up as at the start it wasn't safe for anyone over 70). Add then that other countries are going no it's not safe for our 60 year olds, like Denmark, and I'm amazed how anyone doesn't see why people would be getting skeptical of the AZ vaccine. It being the cheapest one and all the issues around manufacturing doesn't help either.

The stick approach only works if they don't have mass refusals. If something like 20% of the 60s (and i don't know what the percentage will be but there definitely will be people refusing it) then the government has an issue as how do you leave that many people who are a higher risk unvaccinated and vaccinate less risky people instead.

Never mind, that basically threatening that one particular age group to take it or else you wait and take your chances with covid has to be legally dubious that someone is giving their consent properly.

Not to be pedantic as I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think there was ever a safety issue with the over 70s, the restriction there was because there wasn't enough efficacy data from that age group in the phase 3 trials I think.

I agree that mass refusals would throw a spanner in the works. 100 people refusing it wouldn't be a problem to throw them to the back of the queue, but if it was to be a good percentage of the 60+, there's no way that could happen.

15-04-2021 11:15AM

Klonker wrote: »

I don't think NIAC should of based their decision on current covid rates in the country. Its like them saying we'd rather longer restrictions than the risk of the AZ vaccine and that shouldn't be their decision to make.

It is a very important factor.

If cases are low, the number of potential covid deaths in the under 60's is extremely low. Until more answers are available the potential, and I emphasise potential, is that more serious vaccine adverse events could occur in the younger groups than covid deaths with mass vaccinations. So you divert the vaccine to those groups with higher risk of covid death and lower risk of adverse vaccine effect.

In a high covid environment the benefits of the vaccine clearly outweigh the risks of vaccination for all age groups.

It is also highly likely that the restrictions on AZ vaccine will be loosened as more data about the groups at highest risk of adverse event emerges

Turtwig · 15-04-2021 11:18AM

.42. wrote: »

Is the Blood Clotting with J&J and AZ only effecting Women?

Do we know the ratio of Male V Female who have been effected?

Both the EMA and MHRA have stated that when the vaccination profile is taken into account and normalised for there are no known risk factors such as age, gender, medical history etc. identified yet.

is_that_so · 15-04-2021 11:19AM

titan18 wrote: »

Might not be new on the dont want a particular vaccine then back of the queue but the decision for it to only be used on one particular age group is (I mean logically if it's not safe for someone who's 59, why is it safe for a 60 year old and they messed up as at the start it wasn't safe for anyone over 70). Add then that other countries are going no it's not safe for our 60 year olds, like Denmark, and I'm amazed how anyone doesn't see why people would be getting skeptical of the AZ vaccine. It being the cheapest one and all the issues around manufacturing doesn't help either.

The stick approach only works if they don't have mass refusals. If something like 20% of the 60s (and i don't know what the percentage will be but there definitely will be people refusing it) then the government has an issue as how do you leave that many people who are a higher risk unvaccinated and vaccinate less risky people instead.

Never mind, that basically threatening that one particular age group to take it or else you wait and take your chances with covid has to be legally dubious that someone is giving their consent properly.

There's really no evidence this is going to happen beyond your speculation. As someone posted earlier they were in queue of 900 or so to register so there is an appetite for vaccination, any vaccination. Incidentally I know someone who refused it because they were booked into the Aviva, a 3 hour round trip.

ACitizenErased · 15-04-2021 11:19AM

https://twitter.com/COVID19DataIE/status/1382639342972243976?s=20

18,000 doses of Pfizer on Tuesday

Russman · 15-04-2021 11:20AM

Deleted User wrote: »

It is also highly likely that the restrictions on AZ vaccine will be loosened as more data about the groups at highest risk of adverse event emerges

Possibly/probably, but by the time that data comes out we could well be in a place where AZ isn't all that crucial to our rollout anymore. If we get into the back end of May and we've good supply of Pfizer etc and are steaming through the cohorts, say, doing the 45-55s, AZ is largely dead in the water here at that point IMO.

Vaccine Megathread - See OP for threadbans

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