Vaccine Megathread - See OP for threadbans

Turtwig · 14-04-2021 10:25AM

Economics101 wrote: »

Different European countries have implemented different cut-off points for the AZ vaccine: 30, 40, 50 and 60. Surely they can't all be right: and arguably out of the 4 are wrong, although the cut-off age may depend on the prevalence of the disease.

Different countries have different disease incidence profiles, population demographics and alternative vaccines availability. This means that even if all of them calculate the age cut off thresholds the exact same way - and I doubt they do - the results will be markedly different.
That's why the age restrictions are so variable. The principles used to arrive at them are I expect broadly similar.

TanookiMario · 14-04-2021 10:29AM

You could almost just laugh at the whole sorry situation.

A few months ago we were battering "anti-vaxxers" from pillar to post.

Now we are just casually talking about which vaccine is the least dangerous to which demographic groups.

Your mad next door neighbour is an idiot for not trusting vaccines meanwhile the government is wanting to halt the use of certain vaccines and that's just fine.

So now we are in a position where we are being told its either take your risk with the virus or the vaccine but the vaccine is less dangerous so bet on that. LOL.

I think I'd rather just hold off and wait until I can just get Pfizer. Clearly something is not going right with the other options.

Economics101 · 14-04-2021 10:31AM

Originally posted by Turtwig: Different countries have different disease incidence profiles, population demographics and alternative vaccines availability. This means that even if all of them calculate the age cut off thresholds the exact same way - and I doubt they do - the results will be markedly different.
That's why the age restrictions are so variable. The principles used to arrive at them are I expect broadly similar.

Fully agreed. But why are we not told exactly how why our authoritarian medical rulers arrived at 60 as the cut-off age for AZ? Totally in line with the Irish public administration's mushroom theory of policy-making,

14-04-2021 10:31AM

ACitizenErased wrote: »

The FDA is using 6 in 6.8 to make decisions.

They aren't. There will be some cases in the numerator under investigation for the reason Turtwig outlined. It wont be many

TomOnBoard · 14-04-2021 10:31AM

ACitizenErased wrote: »

In good vaccine news:
https://twitter.com/florian_krammer/status/1382148098743529479?s=20

We know that vaccines work, but this tweet is misleading. As posters on that Twitter thread point out, the decline in cases represented in the graph occurred during a period following the implementation of greater lockdown measures in the Spring, coupled with increased vaccine roll-out. So, its not vaccines in isolation that is responsible.

Now that Israel appears to have a very high level of vaccination, it is the graphs from here on out that will be most telling, because as it emerges from lockown, any prevention of future rises in infections will be down to vaccines alone.

14-04-2021 10:32AM

Are they giving Astrazeneca to the remaining over 70's who still need a first dose?

namloc1980 · 14-04-2021 10:33AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Are they giving Astrazeneca to the remaining over 70's who still need a first dose?

That's what should happen so to not use up all the mRNA vaccines, but haven't seen that confirmed.

ACitizenErased · 14-04-2021 10:35AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

They aren't. There will be some cases in the numerator under investigation for the reason Turtwig outlined. It wont be many

Well that’s the number the FDA are peddling. Not something I made up.

MrStuffins · 14-04-2021 10:41AM

TanookiMario wrote: »

Your mad next door neighbour is an idiot for not trusting vaccines meanwhile the government is wanting to halt the use of certain vaccines and that's just fine.

Well I don't know about your neighbour, but mine was saying he didn't trust vaccines because a hidden cabal of billionaires, who actually might be lizards in human form, have planned this whole charade by installing 5G antennae all over the world in order to elicit the effects of a virus that doesn't exist, in order to administer to the global population a "vaccine" which will actually be used to suppress the ability for the human race to reproduce.

Slightly different to the Govt's policy of making decisions based on certain rare side-effects.

ddarcy · 14-04-2021 10:42AM

namloc1980 wrote: »

That's what should happen so to not use up all the mRNA vaccines, but haven't seen that confirmed.

Officially they are not mixing vaccines. So if you are over 70 , the second jab will be consistent with the first jab. If they haven’t started yet, then yes AZ should be given, but I think AZ is only going to be used on 60-69, so not on over 70’s yet.

afatbollix · 14-04-2021 10:43AM

No idea if this has been posted as can't be arsed looking at the same thing over and over saying that vaccines are ****e since this new thread started.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/13/how-uk-doctor-marie-scully-blood-clotting-link-astrazeneca-covid-jab-university-college-london-hospital

They have found a way of finding out what the problem is with the cloting. They have a test to detect it already and have a way of treating it if detected early.

Basically, old-school treatments that were the norm were what was killing these people. The treatments caused more problems than solved. They even have a worldwide what's app group to talk about it and treatments.

Science at work, This took weeks to sort instead of years.

is_that_so · 14-04-2021 10:46AM

Miike wrote: »

I didn't see this coming :eek:

For AZ, absolutely! We'll have CureVac and Novavax and maybe others. There's also no reason to assume we'll need a whole population programme again and you may find countries more inclined to do individual deals with the EU purchases a smaller proportion.

Turtwig · 14-04-2021 10:52AM

I can understand EU not renewing AZ because of their persistent unreliable delivery issues. The J & J one is a tad surprising.

lbj666 · 14-04-2021 10:56AM

bucketybuck wrote: »

It highlights a problem with our governments approach since the very start, they completely ignored the human element in all this.

The young people of this country have been treated disgracefully in this past year, they had everything taken away from them while never being treated as anything more than collateral damage. Their jobs, their education and their chances all taken away and then told to stop whining and "hold firm".

Now they are being told to take a vaccine that possibly could kill them to protect against a virus that doesn't hurt them, all to protect people that did nothing for them. And we wonder why they may have stopped giving a damn?

I'm not young and I'll have my vaccine in the next few weeks, but I can completely see how extremely poor messaging and communication this past year has led to a situation where a lot of people may no longer care how selfish they are or are not.

I haven't seen anything statistically yet to suggest that the risk of serious illness death from AZ is greater than from Covid in younger cohorts, maybe in circumstances of low exposure but people can forget about that now as society starts to open up, higher incidence levels of the virus will be tolerated in the health service while we are in a transistionary period to herd immunity if it even gets to it.

But lets say for argument the risk of serious illness/death is the same very very rare for either side but still.

Well here your tie breakers

Potentially Being proper sick up for a few weeks
Long covid messing you up for even longer
The terror of not having your sense of taste for a while wondering if it would come back.
Isolating for 2 weeks 10 days (ie having to stay home from the job they havent been able to do for the past 12 months)
Living like a hermit to absolutely avoid any potential for this.

vs a rough 24 hours or
rare side effects such as the dizzys enlarged lymph node, ab pain sweating (all symptoms similar to covid symptoms )

The AZ Vacine or any other , wins on goal difference, goals scored, head to head etc etc. by a very clear margin.

Besides the AZ vacine is not earmarked for younger groups anyway, which provides even more comfort and assurance.

I havent even mentioned the benefits of reducing transmission or the overall goal of ending this bloody thing.

rm212 · 14-04-2021 11:01AM

SusanC10 wrote: »

https://reut.rs/3abFpDN

"The EU Commission has decided not to renew COVID-19 vaccine contracts next year with companies such as Astrazeneca and Johnson & Johnson (J&J), Italian daily La Stampa reported on Wednesday citing a source from the Italian Health Ministry."

This kind of stuff constantly coming out makes the public confidence in the vaccines (particularly AZ and J&J) drop, second by second almost at this stage. It is 100% clear now that Pfizer and Moderna are considered by health professionals (EMA, FDA etc) to be the best, most effective and most safe vaccines by far. The EU should really have made larger optional orders with all vaccine manufacturers, so that we could just pick up the best couple and decline the rest when the results came out. Hindsight is 20/20, I suppose

RavenBea17b · 14-04-2021 11:03AM

afatbollix wrote: »

No idea if this has been posted as can't be arsed looking at the same thing over and over saying that vaccines are ****e since this new thread started.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/13/how-uk-doctor-marie-scully-blood-clotting-link-astrazeneca-covid-jab-university-college-london-hospital

They have found a way of finding out what the problem is with the cloting. They have a test to detect it already and have a way of treating it if detected early.

Basically, old-school treatments that were the norm were what was killing these people. The treatments caused more problems than solved. They even have a worldwide what's app group to talk about it and treatments.

Science at work, This took weeks to sort instead of years.

Wow, so maybe an ibuprofen/paracetamol as suggested about headaches is indeed a way forward. They suggest paracetamol for headaches at the vaccine centres.

Interesting read.

rm212 · 14-04-2021 11:05AM

Turtwig wrote: »

I can understand EU not renewing AZ because of their persistent unreliable delivery issues. The J & J one is a tad surprising.

It makes sense to me? The EU is comprised of first world countries who can afford whatever treatment they deem best. You have two vaccines that have a risk, albeit very low, of causing dangerous/lethal blood clots in the brain. You have two mRNA vaccines (with higher efficacy rates) that have not been linked to this side effect, nor any lethal side effects. Regardless of how unlikely these side effects are, no link is still better than any link. Not to mention the issue with boosters being easy for mRNA but hard for adenoviral vectors.

Makes sense to make larger orders with the better vaccines, once we're through the first vaccination of everyone and supply isn't so much of an issue anymore.

Russman · 14-04-2021 11:05AM

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Huge news, portal opening tomorrow.

I have to say I agree with the step by step for sign up, should ensure the system isn't overloaded each day.

So tomorrow Thursday aged 69, Friday 68 and so on.

Vaccinations from next week so we should see AZ being rolled out in big numbers again next week

https://twitter.com/DonnellyStephen/status/1382239419135066115?s=19

That really is super news.
I now have to talk my 69 year old mother into taking the leap !!

14-04-2021 11:08AM

ACitizenErased wrote: »

Well that’s the number the FDA are peddling. Not something I made up.

They aren't peddling anything. 6 confirmed cases out of 6.8million doses so far. They were specifically asked were there cases under investigation and didn't rule it out.

vienne86 · 14-04-2021 11:11AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Are they giving Astrazeneca to the remaining over 70's who still need a first dose?

There are so few of them left to get their first dose, they wouldn't be saving many doses that way. I doubt too that they would try mixing vaccines between dose 1 and 2 with this cohort. And it would be tough on the few left in that category, who have had to wait longer thn many for their first jab, to be told now that they're going to have a 12 week gap until they're fully vaccinated. I can see the logic, but I doubt it will happen.

snotboogie · 14-04-2021 11:12AM

12.5k vaccines administered on Monday. Even with the AZ issues that's a hugely disappointing number

RavenBea17b · 14-04-2021 11:13AM

lbj666 wrote: »

I haven't seen anything statistically yet to suggest that the risk of serious illness death from AZ is greater than from Covid in younger cohorts, maybe in circumstances of low exposure but people can forget about that now as society starts to open up, higher incidence levels of the virus will be tolerated in the health service while we are in a transistionary period to herd immunity if it even gets to it.

But lets say for argument the risk of serious illness/death is the same very very rare for either side but still.

Well here your tie breakers

Potentially Being proper sick up for a few weeks
Long covid messing you up for even longer
The terror of not having your sense of taste for a while wondering if it would come back.
Isolating for 2 weeks 10 days (ie having to stay home from the job they havent been able to do for the past 12 months)
Living like a hermit to absolutely avoid any potential for this.

vs a rough 24 hours or
rare side effects such as the dizzys enlarged lymph node, ab pain sweating (all symptoms similar to covid symptoms )

The AZ Vacine or any other , wins on goal difference, goals scored, head to head etc etc. by a very clear margin.

Besides the AZ vacine is not earmarked for younger groups anyway, which provides even more comfort and assurance.

I havent even mentioned the benefits of reducing transmission or the overall goal of ending this bloody thing.

Additional long Covid effects include higher risk of blood clots, multiple organ failures.
Research is showing, that those, who have had Covid, but not hospitalised or symptom's that were not too bad, are also experiencing long term effects, some worse than the Covid effects they had at the time.
These are being investigated.
I'll take AZ, Jansen, Pfizer , whatever. Knowing the potential side effects, we can watch out for them ever.

vienne86 · 14-04-2021 11:18AM

snotboogie wrote: »

12.5k vaccines administered on Monday. Even with the AZ issues that's a hugely disappointing number

And the pausing of the AZ clinics only kicked in yesterday, didn't it?

Wolf359f · 14-04-2021 11:23AM

vienne86 wrote: »

And the pausing of the AZ clinics only kicked in yesterday, didn't it?

Yup, gonna be a depressing front on vaccine numbers this week. Why they didn't do a separate risk analysis on cohort 4 & 7 and see if the risk of covid far outweighs AZ rare side effect.

Hurrache · 14-04-2021 11:26AM

TanookiMario wrote: »

You could almost just laugh at the whole sorry situation.

A few months ago we were battering "anti-vaxxers" from pillar to post.

I'd still batter any anti-vaxxer from pillar to post, and back again. And on the way, give anyone trying to make such a tentative link a slap in the chops.

1huge1 · 14-04-2021 11:27AM

Presumably we are just building up a sizeable amount of vaccines at the moment then?

Le Bruise · 14-04-2021 11:28AM

Folks getting their second dose of Moderna today (mid 70's, West Cork). They're both delighted and excited and can't wait to go on the lash with their mates!:)

PhilOssophy · 14-04-2021 11:31AM

This thread is an interesting read, but its turning into "why didn't they do A, B and C", when if they had done A, B and C they would have been criticised for not doing D, E, and F.
While my opinion of the HSE as an organisation is probably the lowest of any organisation in Ireland, I have no doubt that those involved in the vaccine rollout do want to be cautious.
We've had 1 bad week on the vaccine front, largely through no fault of our own. While we can surmise that the probabilities are low for these vaccines, that decision shouldn't be made in haste. We don't need ad-hoc on the fly decisions on these things, many of the most vulnerable are now vaccinated and a pause of a few days is neither here nor there.
I am absolutely sure that AZ and J&J haven't stopped production - so once the green light is given to start again, the numbers will catch up again in days.
Our media are just hysteria merchants and if those making the decisions were given a chance to breathe, instead of having a media ready to pounce on even the slightest mis-communication, I am sure people would be better off for it.

ACitizenErased · 14-04-2021 11:32AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

They aren't peddling anything. 6 confirmed cases out of 6.8million doses so far. They were specifically asked were there cases under investigation and didn't rule it out.

Right, you know better.

Micky 32 · 14-04-2021 11:38AM

https://twitter.com/laoneill111/status/1382259410601410562?s=21

Vaccine Megathread - See OP for threadbans

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