Vaccine Megathread - See OP for threadbans

lucernarian · 13-04-2021 08:16PM

funnydoggy wrote: »

Me nerves :pac:

Oh god, not another merge... These keep derailing the main topic.

odyssey06 · 13-04-2021 08:17PM

lucernarian wrote: »

Oh god, not another merge... These keep derailing the main topic.

Prepare to repel boarders...

ACitizenErased · 13-04-2021 08:21PM

Strazdas wrote: »

It might be a clever move by Johnson & Johnson to suspend their own vaccine in Europe. It shows they are being responsible and are trying not to get themselves an AstraZeneca type reputation.

Not really. The European Commission are totally confused as to why they suspended it. Makes the company look bad.
"European Commission seeks clarification on ‘completely unexpected’ announcement "
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/johnson-johnson-delays-eu-vaccine-deliveries-as-us-pauses-use-over-blood-clots-1.4536080

Happydays2020 · 13-04-2021 08:25PM

ACitizenErased wrote: »

Not really. The European Commission are totally confused as to why they suspended it. Makes the company look bad.
"European Commission seeks clarification on ‘completely unexpected’ announcement "
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/johnson-johnson-delays-eu-vaccine-deliveries-as-us-pauses-use-over-blood-clots-1.4536080

Maybe they had a chat with NIAC/

ACitizenErased · 13-04-2021 08:28PM

Happydays2020 wrote: »

Maybe they had a chat with NIAC/

What does NIAC have to do with it?

Boulevardier · 13-04-2021 08:34PM

I don't get this. What happened to my thread on the 65-69 vaccination portal??

Cork2021 · 13-04-2021 08:38PM

As this has probably been the worst day so far in terms of vaccine news, another phrase that needs to confined to the past and this is what should be happening

“Abundance of Caution”... pity we don’t have an equal abundance of urgency, common sense and leadership.

13-04-2021 08:46PM

Neleven wrote: »

Johnson and Johnson have announced the suspension of their vaccine due to the finding of 6 cases of CVST in 7 million doses (less than one case per million), following on from the suspension of Astra Zeneca to all but the over 60s for the same reason. A quick google of peer-reviewed sources suggests that the incidence of CVST in the general population, pre-Covid, ranged from 7 per million to 15 per million. According to an article in the Irish Times( April 12th) there were 223 cases of CVST and another clotting issue (SVT) in 34 million AZ doses - a rate of about 6.5 per million.
I am no scientist, but the figures suggest that in the vaccinated population there is no greater incidence of CVST than would be expected in the unvaccinated population. In fact, in some studies it's considerably lower. Am I missing something?

I'm fairly sure that in relation to the Norwegian and German cases, it was reported that the typical rate of CVST in the general population was 2 to 3 per million. Germany were seeing 13 to 14 per million in people vaccinated with AZ, which is why they took action.

If the rates were the same as in the general population, there would have been nothing to investigate and the various national regulators would not have issued new advice.

13-04-2021 08:50PM

From the bits of the news I saw this evening, they didn't seem to be reporting that the pause on J&J is likely to only last a few days. Unless I'm missing something. They were talking about the possibility of J&J not coming through at all, which doesn't seem realistic?

average_runner · 13-04-2021 08:55PM

It's all a complete joke. Let the people decide themselves

ACitizenErased · 13-04-2021 08:55PM

Flying Fox wrote: »

From the bits of the news I saw this evening, they didn't seem to be reporting that the pause on J&J is likely to only last a few days. Unless I'm missing something. They were talking about the possibility of J&J not coming through at all, which doesn't seem realistic?

The FDA had a press conference today.

Neleven · 13-04-2021 09:06PM

Flying Fox wrote: »

I'm fairly sure that in relation to the Norwegian and German cases, it was reported that the typical rate of CVST in the general population was 2 to 3 per million. Germany were seeing 13 to 14 per million in people vaccinated with AZ, which is why they took action.

If the rates were the same as in the general population, there would have been nothing to investigate and the various national regulators would not have issued new advice.

"The incidence of CVST in children and neonates has been reported to be as high as 7 cases per million people, whereas in adults the incidence is 3-4 cases per million." Filippidis et al 2009;
"In our population of 953 390 adults, this represented an incidence of 15.7 million per year (95% confidence interval, 12.9–19.0)," Devagayasam et al 2016;
"The overall age- and sex-adjusted incidence of CVST was 1.47/100,000 per year (95% CI: 1.03-1.91). The incidence was 1.78/100,000 per year for women (95% CI: 1.13-2.43) and 1.16/100,000 per year for men (95% CI: 0.57-1.75).2 Fairbanks et al 2018.

If the German figures you quote are correct then the assertion in the Times must be inaccurate - there would be twice as many cases. ("Of 34 million people who had received the vaccine in the UK and the European Economic Area, the EMA said it had received reports of 169 cases of cerebral venous sinus thrombosis (CVST) and 53 cases of splanchnic vein thrombosis – both rare kinds of blood clots") Admittedly, it's possible that the UK figures are underreported - I don't know.

One way or the other, the figures are not very significant to my mind so the question is why is there such caution? It's slightly reassuring that they are ultra-cautious about safety, but it's incredibly frustrating if the incidence is no worse than the underlying population trends.

Irish Aris · 13-04-2021 09:20PM

Boulevardier wrote: »

I don't get this. What happened to my thread on the 65-69 vaccination portal??

I think one of the administrators added it here, as it fits the discussion in this thread.

13-04-2021 09:26PM

ACitizenErased wrote: »

The FDA had a press conference today.

The 'media call' from this afternoon? It seemed quite optimistic so I'm wondering why RTE seems so much more negative.

stephenjmcd · 13-04-2021 09:31PM

Flying Fox wrote: »

From the bits of the news I saw this evening, they didn't seem to be reporting that the pause on J&J is likely to only last a few days. Unless I'm missing something. They were talking about the possibility of J&J not coming through at all, which doesn't seem realistic?

Basically the gist of it alright

13-04-2021 09:33PM

Neleven wrote: »

"The incidence of CVST in children and neonates has been reported to be as high as 7 cases per million people, whereas in adults the incidence is 3-4 cases per million." Filippidis et al 2009;
"In our population of 953 390 adults, this represented an incidence of 15.7 million per year (95% confidence interval, 12.9–19.0)," Devagayasam et al 2016;
"The overall age- and sex-adjusted incidence of CVST was 1.47/100,000 per year (95% CI: 1.03-1.91). The incidence was 1.78/100,000 per year for women (95% CI: 1.13-2.43) and 1.16/100,000 per year for men (95% CI: 0.57-1.75).2 Fairbanks et al 2018.

If the German figures you quote are correct then the assertion in the Times must be inaccurate - there would be twice as many cases. ("Of 34 million people who had received the vaccine in the UK and the European Economic Area, the EMA said it had received reports of 169 cases of cerebral venous sinus thrombosis (CVST) and 53 cases of splanchnic vein thrombosis – both rare kinds of blood clots") Admittedly, it's possible that the UK figures are underreported - I don't know.

One way or the other, the figures are not very significant to my mind so the question is why is there such caution? It's slightly reassuring that they are ultra-cautious about safety, but it's incredibly frustrating if the incidence is no worse than the underlying population trends.

In Germany alone they had 39 cases out of 2.7 million doses, so it's only a subset of the Europe wide data, but it (along with the Norwegian cases) prompted the investigation in the first place.

ixoy · 13-04-2021 09:58PM

Flying Fox wrote: »

The 'media call' from this afternoon? It seemed quite optimistic so I'm wondering why RTE seems so much more negative.

The answer's in the question: RTE.

The HorsesMouth · 13-04-2021 10:00PM

Flying Fox wrote: »

The 'media call' from this afternoon? It seemed quite optimistic so I'm wondering why RTE seems so much more negative.

RTE spinning a negative turn on an optimistic story....now where would we have seen this before?
Every. Single. Day.

brickster69 · 13-04-2021 10:38PM

Danzy wrote: »

Many places in Germany took Easter off, up to 5 days in some cities.

Lack of urgency on the continent.

Yeah, 300K of them shot off to Spain for Easter holidays. Spaniards were all celebrating, wait till the effects of that kicks in.

Micky 32 · 13-04-2021 10:40PM

https://twitter.com/sailorrooscout/status/1382076600276111364?s=21

https://twitter.com/sailorrooscout/status/1382079497432875013?s=21

JMR46 · 13-04-2021 11:19PM

JMR46 wrote: »

I felt the need to make this positive post seeing how the thread has been going the last couple of days........

My aunt and uncle, both in their early 70s, got their first dose of the Pfizer vaccine today....great relief!!

On a side note, is there any update on how the housebound vaccinations are progressing? I know an update was provided in the Dáil a couple of weeks ago saying they had approx 600/1800 done. I have a relative that's 96 who is housebound and awaiting it. I know and understand the reasons why but just wondering was there anything recent on it

Another further positive update

I just found out another aunt and uncle of mine (again early 70s) got a late call this evening and also recieved their first doses. Great day for the parish!

Seriously though I found it heartening to hear these stories from others on this thread so thought I would share mine. The last few days have been hard listening to all the negative but we should probably remember thousands are getting protected every day and we are getting there!

Goldengirl · 13-04-2021 11:22PM

Boulevardier wrote: »

I don't get this. What happened to my thread on the 65-69 vaccination portal??

You have been " merged";)

Jim Gazebo · 13-04-2021 11:23PM

For the unknowledgeable average person this whole charade is a massive PR disaster. One has to wonder if it is purposeful but that's for another discussion.

Personally, I've said it before, I'm young, I've always believed in fighting off illness without medication etc etc being better in the long run. I would still rather wait on the vaccine MYSELF, if I was 50+, even 40+ I'd swallow it down in any way possible. But I do not see the point in grabbing the first available vaccine for an illness I'm still happy to take my chances with if I catch it.

I do not think people should be castigated for that stance if they are young and healthy.

Scuid Mhór · 13-04-2021 11:27PM

Jim Gazebo wrote: »

For the unknowledgeable average person this whole charade is a massive PR disaster. One has to wonder if it is purposeful but that's for another discussion.

Personally, I've said it before, I'm young, I've always believed in fighting off illness without medication etc etc being better in the long run. I would still rather wait on the vaccine MYSELF, if I was 50+, even 40+ I'd swallow it down in any way possible. But I do not see the point in grabbing the first available vaccine for an illness I'm still happy to take my chances with if I catch it.

I do not think people should be castigated for that stance if they are young and healthy.

Eh, yes they should be castigated. Because anyone who remains unvaccinated is at a higher risk of getting infected and then passing the virus on to someone more vulnerable (even if that vulnerable person is already vaccinated). The only way out of this is through herd immunity.

If enough young and healthy people refuse to get vaccinated we will never get out of this. It’s astounding that this hasn’t been communicated well enough to people. It’s how vaccines have always worked - they aren’t just for the vulnerable, the idea is to eventually quash transmission.

Most would consider your post selfish, misguided, and lacking any real knowledge of how vaccines are supposed to end the pandemic.

ACitizenErased · 13-04-2021 11:27PM

Pfizer have announced they are increasing expected supply to US by end of May by 10%. If only they could do that for Europe too :pac:

sd1999 · 13-04-2021 11:28PM

Jim Gazebo wrote: »

For the unknowledgeable average person this whole charade is a massive PR disaster. One has to wonder if it is purposeful but that's for another discussion.

Personally, I've said it before, I'm young, I've always believed in fighting off illness without medication etc etc being better in the long run. I would still rather wait on the vaccine MYSELF, if I was 50+, even 40+ I'd swallow it down in any way possible. But I do not see the point in grabbing the first available vaccine for an illness I'm still happy to take my chances with if I catch it.

I do not think people should be castigated for that stance if they are young and healthy.

The problem with that approach is that not only could you cause someone more vulnerable to get sick, if enough people aren’t vaccinated etc. there is more opportunity for variants to develop. Also, society as we know it wouldn’t exist if we “fought off” disease without medication.

EDIT: Also specifically in relation to Covid, getting it once gives you some immunity to the variant you got but very limited immunity to others. Vaccines have so far proven to be better suited to other variants so “fighting it off yourself” still leaves you open to future infection and, by extension, transmission.

sd1999 · 13-04-2021 11:35PM

Scuid Mhór wrote: »

Eh, yes they should be castigated. Because anyone who remains unvaccinated is at a higher risk of getting infected and then passing the virus on to someone more vulnerable (even if that vulnerable person is already vaccinated). The only way out of this is through herd immunity.

If enough young and healthy people refuse to get vaccinated we will never get out of this. It’s astounding that this hasn’t been communicated well enough to people. It’s how vaccines have always worked - they aren’t just for the vulnerable, the idea is to eventually quash transmission.

Most would consider your post selfish, misguided, and lacking any real knowledge of how vaccines are supposed to end the pandemic.

Completely agree. I’m young but in Cohort 7 and the amount of privilege in “I’ll take my chances” is staggering. Some of us can’t take those chances. Getting a vaccine isn’t just about protecting yourself, it’s about protecting everyone. And while the majority of young people recover and are fine, there have been a small number of healthy ones who have ended up in ICU or died after contracting Covid. Some have argued that they must have had an underlying condition they didn’t know about as if that makes it ok when by that logic anyone could have an underlying condition they don’t know about.

The HorsesMouth · 13-04-2021 11:36PM

Scuid Mhór wrote: »

Eh, yes they should be castigated. Because anyone who remains unvaccinated is at a higher risk of getting infected and then passing the virus on to someone more vulnerable (even if that vulnerable person is already vaccinated). The only way out of this is through herd immunity.

If enough young and healthy people refuse to get vaccinated we will never get out of this. It’s astounding that this hasn’t been communicated well enough to people. It’s how vaccines have always worked - they aren’t just for the vulnerable, the idea is to eventually quash transmission.

Most would consider your post selfish, misguided, and lacking any real knowledge of how vaccines are supposed to end the pandemic.

Ok we all know how vaccines work. But usually vaccines throughout history have mostly been against diseases that have serious potential to harm you as an individual. Not for the good of everyone else. For example the flu vaccine, most people under 40 don't get it and are not expected to get it because they are v unlikely to die of flu ( i am not comparing flu to covid btw!).

So in my case, I have had covid. I had a few days where I had no energy and a headache but that was pretty much it. So just hypothetically speaking..if I was to receive the AZ vaccine, and then die of a blood clot..are you saying sorry that's just one of those things..we are happy to accept you dying from getting a vaccine from a disease that posed no risk to you personally?

FWIW I will take a vaccine and I am not anti-vax at all but I find people suggest that young people are misguided and selfish for harbouring hesitations to taking a vaccine against something that poses little risk to most of them a bit over the top.

ACitizenErased · 13-04-2021 11:38PM

Janssen have announced all trials involving their vaccine have been temporarily paused while they update guidance for participants

Goldengirl · 13-04-2021 11:40PM

The HorsesMouth wrote: »

Ok we all know how vaccines work. But usually vaccines throughout history have mostly been against diseases that have serious potential to harm you as an individual. Not for the good of everyone else. For example the flu vaccine, most people under 40 don't get it and are not expected to get it because they are v unlikely to die of flu ( i am not comparing flu to covid btw!).

So in my case, I have had covid. I had a few days where I had no energy and a headache but that was pretty much it. So just hypothetically speaking..if I was to receive the AZ vaccine, and then die of a blood clot..are you saying sorry that's just one of those things..we are happy to accept you dying from getting a vaccine from a disease that posed no risk to you personally?

FWIW I will take a vaccine and I am not anti-vax at all but I find people suggest that young people are misguided and selfish for harbouring hesitations to taking a vaccine against something that poses little risk to most of them a bit over the top.

Isn't that why it is being stopped for younger people , precisely ?

Vaccine Megathread - See OP for threadbans

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