Non Covid healthcare

Donald Trump wrote: »

How do you think those numbers would look if we didn't have restrictions keeping the Covid infection numbers down?

Hospitals filled up in January and were under severe strain. It was only the tightening down restrictions that got the numbers back down.


Good luck with getting an appointment for anything else in the country anytime soon if we were still at 8k new cases a day and had overflowed ICU surge capacity months ago.


You points have merit on a standalone basis. People will try to twist them to an anti-restriction argument.

Hospitals are filled up every year....this year was a little milder than most.

The cancers and heart diseases that were missed last year and this year so far are just going to accumulate and be harder to treat....causing an increase in deaths in people of all ages, in fact, it will just mean there are more people who are vulnerable to death with Covid...you know, the virus they have stopped all these screenings for!

Silentcorner wrote: »

Hospitals are filled up every year....this year was a little milder than most.

The cancers and heart diseases that were missed last year and this year so far are just going to accumulate and be harder to treat....causing an increase in deaths in people of all ages, in fact, it will just mean there are more people who are vulnerable to death with Covid...you know, the virus they have stopped all these screenings for!

It was a fairly simple question I thought. I am surprised you didn't appear to be able to understand it.


Do you think what we had in January, with ICU in surge capacity and large numbers being hospitalised every day, would be a normal every-day event in the hospitals? Because that would have continued without restrictions. And there would be no elective procedures at all. You think that happens anyway most days/weeks/months/years?

Silentcorner wrote: »

You are absolutely right, it is very simple.

Our health system, comprising of 11,000 beds across the country plus the 350 ICU capacity are placed under massive pressure every year during our flu season...what do you think causes our annual trolley crisis where hospitals often ban visitors....so yes it is a normal year in that sense of the word, the only difference was this year it was a different viral infection.

This thread is not about restrictions whether you agree with them or not, it is about Non Covid healthcare, which has largely been put on hold for over a year now.

Do you think the Cancer or Heart Disease cases that we usually screen for have gone away just because we decided not to screen for them?

What impact do you think the waiting lists, which is over 900,000 now, up from 400,000 last year will have on the health system?

Sure send me the links from previous years where there was sustained periods of hospital admissions like we had in January.

Because without restrictions, those numbers would be worse now today than they were in Jan and we would be after having solid months of it.

And you also have to remember that with no restrictions, regular flu would have been up to normal levels too. The Covid would have been additional on top of that.

I await your links!

drunkmonkey wrote: »

This is unfortunately a public service problem, people with insurance or the means to pay are seen swiftly.

Private hospitals were taken over by the public system

Donald Trump wrote: »

Sure send me the links from previous years where there was sustained periods of hospital admissions like we had in January.

Because without restrictions, those numbers would be worse now today than they were in Jan and we would be after having solid months of it.

And you also have to remember that with no restrictions, regular flu would have been up to normal levels too. The Covid would have been additional on top of that.

I await your links!

Our hospitals aren’t fit for purpose and haven’t been for quite some time, community suppression measures won’t prevent hospital acquired Covid

https://www.imj.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Airborne-Transmission-of-Covid-19-Implications-for-Irish-Hospitals.pdf

After the epidemic of severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) due to SARS-CoV-1 in 2003, many countries reviewed their capacity to control epidemics and potential pandemics. In Hong Kong, the government insisted on a minimum distance between beds and the provision of more than 1,400 isolation rooms with negative pressure ventilation in public hospitals.13 This may partly explain why some Asian countries with prior experience of managing SARS, such as Hong Kong and Singapore, appear to have coped better with this pandemic than countries largely unaffected by SARS.
In Ireland, the Health Information and Quality Authority have published standards for IPC in acute hospitals.14 However, implementation of best practice IPC is challenging because of sub-optimal infrastructure in many hospitals. In 2009 an expert group recommended that newly built hospital in-patient accommodation should comprise 100% single-patient rooms, existing multiple bedded rooms contain no more than three beds, and that there be at least one AIIR per 150 acute inpatient beds with double that for regional or tertiary referral hospitals.15 However, little progress was made in implementing these recommendations since then. In a 2011- 2012 European hospital study, the country median proportion of single-bed rooms was 24.2%, with Irish hospitals reporting between 10-20%.16 Of 60 Irish acute hospitals surveyed in May 2017, the average proportion of single patient rooms in public hospitals ranged from 15% to 29% with 52% in private hospitals. The majority (76%) of single rooms were reported to have en suite facilities, however, there were only 1.8 AIIR per 100 beds.17
The recent pandemic underscores the need for more single rooms with AIIR capacity in acute hospitals to facilitate appropriate patient placement and to prevent cross-infection. While natural ventilation probably suffices for most patients in hospitals, we need to learn from recent evidence, plan for the future, and improve the environmental conditions for all in acute hospitals. This will help control the next pandemic, reduce nosocomial and HCW acquisition, and better prevent more common infections such as seasonal influenza.

Sadly, an obliterated economy like Ireland’s won’t have the necessary spending power to implement the required changes

Paul Reid is on €35,000 a month though which I find amusing, although slightly irrelevant

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Our hospitals aren’t fit for purpose and haven’t been for quite some time, community suppression measures won’t prevent hospital acquired Covid

https://www.imj.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Airborne-Transmission-of-Covid-19-Implications-for-Irish-Hospitals.pdf



Sadly, an obliterated economy like Ireland’s won’t have the necessary spending power to implement the required changes

Paul Reid is on €35,000 a month though which I find amusing, although slightly irrelevant

But that is why we have to lock down harder than other countries. That has been clear from the start. We didn't have the facilities to cope with what we have - we wouldn't have the facilities to cope with additional load.


I can't fathom how people could conclude that, given they know that appointments were being postponed already, that the hospitals could have coped better and completed all their elective appointments and procedures if only they could have had thousands more people being admitted every week.

Silentcorner wrote: »

You are a gas ticket!!!

WE have never postponed regular appointments as far as I am aware...until this year, where we postponed over 400,000 of them I believe...how will we remedy that one do you think?

Have a think.


Appointments were cancelled or postponed due to the additional resources needed to combat the Covid cases that we had when we have restrictions.


I will try to break it into two steps:
1) If we had no restrictions, we would be having more Covid cases
2) If we had more covid cases, we have more hospital admissions needing even more resources.


Given (2), and it having been explained to you that when extra resources are needed, they are taken away from other things, do you think there would have been more or less cancelled appointments if we had more covid cases needing hospitalisation.

Donald Trump wrote: »

Have a think.


Appointments were cancelled or postponed due to the additional resources needed to combat the Covid cases that we had when we have restrictions.


I will try to break it into two steps:
1) If we had no restrictions, we would be having more Covid cases
2) If we had more covid cases, we have more hospital admissions needing even more resources.


Given (2), and it having been explained to you that when extra resources are needed, they are taken away from other things, do you think there would have been more or less cancelled appointments if we had more covid cases needing hospitalisation.

We see severe over crowding in our hospitals every year, year in year out and we don't as far as I am aware, postpone appointments.

This thread, despite your best efforts, is not about restrictions and whether you agree with them or not, it is about Non Covid Care, because at some point, our health officials are going to have to address the MASSIVE waiting list that is only getting longer...there is no evidence that extra beds were required in any meaningful over the last 12 months given we normally see huge over crowding every year.

The HSE has been handed a cheque book since last March, we have thrown resources at the health system....they pumped €5 million into converting a Sport Arena near me last summer, they took it apart in September.

What do you think the health system is going to do to cope with the waiting lists that are over 900,000 at this stage, what impact will delays have on those people...or have you thought that far ahead yet?

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Do you have any source to back any of that up?

The disease peaked in December. We wouldn’t have being guaranteed more cases after the peak without restrictions.

Sweden didn’t lockdown. Their hospitals didn’t collapse.

They cancelled cancer screenings in Sweden.
They were bordered by low density contries that did lock down.
They have more hospital capacity than we do and needed it.

If you think we wouldnt have had more cases without restrictions you are talking utter nonsense without foundation. So where is your source?

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Plenty of places haven’t locked down and haven’t seen hospitals overwhelmed or bodies piling up.
Restrictions really aren’t much use now when the illness is not peaking and hospitals are empty.

Whats the current status on screenings and electives etc in the health service here and elsewhere?

That restrictions have nothing to do with the waiting list and such services as can be seen by the fact that Sweden did not lockdown and did cancel screenings.

And remember private hospitals taken over during first lockdown were used to treat non covid public patients.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

In over a year, hospitals were only busy once due to Covid in Ireland for a few weeks in Jan. Even then, it was mainly due to people catching Covid while in hospital.

Any treatments or screenings cancelled outside that period is blatant negligence.

Bringing more vulnerable people into the hospitals ... if they were also at risk of catching covid... does not sound like negligence.

Deleted User wrote: »

Plenty of places haven’t locked down and haven’t seen hospitals overwhelmed or bodies piling up.

Restrictions really aren’t much use now when the illness is not peaking and hospitals are empty.

jac, plenty of places had spare capacity when corona hit. We didn't. We were already playing catch up

drunkmonkey wrote: »

What are you trying to say here in the context of the thread, I stated people with health insurance or who pay for treatments are looked after swiftly through the private system. You think that's incorrect or you think the public service is running the private hospitals?

In the context of this thread it seemed relevant to point out that for a significant period the private hospitals werent treating private patients quicker than public. In fact for a period were treating non covid public patients as part of the covid deal.
Wouldnt waiting list stats etc be worse if that hadnt happened?

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There was no Covid to focus on outside of January.

Sure we’ve being locked down for most of the last year.

There was no covid to focus on last spring?

How long restrictions are in place for is not relevant here. Its the cancelling of other procedures in hospitals to focus on covid and the consequences of this.
Were screenings cancelled for most of last year?

They are two entirely separate things despite your attempts to hijack this thread into another anti restrictions thread.

Are there any stats available on how we fare versus our peers in terms of impact on non covid healthcare, periods of cancelled services and increase in waiting lists?

Are we still in surge mode or have these services fully resumed now?

The HSE is an absolute and total disgrace, it was indefensible long before Covid, Covid merely brought out the very worst in it. You have tens of thousands of employees in the HSE and Public and Civil Service who should not have jobs, a minority of workers in the HSE do the majority of the work on the front line.

It exists as a glorified social employment scheme and it attracts some of the thickest and worst persons in our society for job security and salary who usually get jobs out of political crony appointment not on their own merit, these guys wouldn't last two minutes in the real world of the private sector.

The HSE is run by these same sloth like employees for their own benefit and the trade unions will defend them to the death. The HSE cannot be fixed or reformed, it will continue to drain the Irish coffers to the tune of €250bn over the next decade while nothing even resembling proper modern 1st world healthcare will be delivered.

I propose the complete privatization of the running of the HSE, keep infrastructure and lands in state ownership, but outsource everything else. Split away the Healthcare cost out of PRSI and introduce a national insurance tax, similar to now, funding is not the problem here remember. All employees of the HSE to transfer to the private sector who will take over and to lose all their Public servant status, new legislation banning trade unions from the healthcare profession with a minimum 10 year prison sentences for any union strike or activity on HSE property.

Break the unions, let the private sector run things efficiently with bonuses for things like no waiting lists etc. I am not proposing an American system where you go bankrupt for a broken leg or choose which fingers to reattach because its $10k per finger etc. Everyone will be covered with excellent levels of coverage paid from taxation but delivered by the private sector since the Public system is so corrupt and exists not as healthcare but a jobs for the boys club of inefficency and outright nepotism. Hundreds of lives are lost every month due to this outright scandal but the golden cow that is the HSE is deemed to be sacrosanct as if it was something like the NHS in the UK.

Compared to the NHS, the UK treasury spends around £150bn/€175bn on the NHS for their population of 67.5million people or €2,600 per head of population.

Ireland by comparison spends €21bn for our population of 5million people and thus Ireland spends €4,200 per head. Funding from Government has never been higher, so high that it is endanger of sending the country into a total fiscal crisis and destroying the economy again. We pay some of the worlds highest combined taxes when you count all taxes, levies and charges. The middle class are crippled and if you want health cover you must shell out another €1,500-€2,500 per year for Health Insurance after already being forced to pay PRSI taxation to fund the behemoth that is the HSE.

There needs to be Thatcher like figure to break the Unions and privatize health because right now we have a whopping health spend and nothing in return, we might aswell take the €21bn and put in a pyre in the middle of Croke Park and burn it because the people are getting no healthcare and only paying huge taxes to fund this scandal. If you are highly paid and underworked HSE employee or one of the hundreds on €100K+ you will of course disagree and call me an right wing loon or whatever you want but what we have now is a disgrace and is not working and will only continue to get far worse until radical action is taken.