FF/FG/Green Government - part 2

Cluedo Monopoly · 10-04-2021 1:22pm

I get the very strong impression that there is serious tension between FF and FG over the mandatory hotel quarantine system. It already looks chaotic (what a surprise) but also seems to be causing a rift. I already suspect that the FF+FG working relationship has deteriorated significantly so it will be interesting to watch the support levels.

Fann Linn · 10-04-2021 3:06pm

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

I get the very strong impression that there is serious tension between FF and FG over the mandatory hotel quarantine system. It already looks chaotic (what a surprise) but also seems to be causing a rift. I already suspect that the FF+FG working relationship has deteriorated significantly so it will be interesting to watch the support levels.

Yep. General consensus appears to be that Donnelly got his way over wonder boy Coveney.

Finty Lemon · 10-04-2021 3:53pm

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

Ehm...the poll is about the policy.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/results-of-landmark-opinion-poll-revealed-public-opinion-turns-on-government-regarding-covid-and-vaccine-roll-out-40272480.html

The poll was a reflection of peoples understandable frustration, and fatigue after a year of restrictions. Similar to other countries really. Irelands covid policy, if judged on the numbers, would be ranked as quite good. Low mortality and a very good rollout of vaccinations overall. The public may see this in time, but it will be a difficult sell.

Interesting that the fact of Ireland having the tax policy doing most to equalise household incomes raised no comment or objection. It doesn't fit the narrative so stay away from it and run back to an old poll. Or indeed attack the credentials of the author. Like I said, populism before policy.

Finty Lemon · 11-04-2021 11:30am

"Ireland's policy response to the COVID-19 crisis has been comprehensive and timely. Transparency, a commitment to a relatively open data policy, the use of traditional and social media to inform the population, and the frequency of updates from the Department of Health and the Health Services Executive are all commendable and have led to a relatively high level of compliance among the general public with the various non-medical measures introduced by the government."
Conclusions of paper in Health Sci and Technology Kennelly et al 9:4:12:20

Finty Lemon · 11-04-2021 12:14pm

The psychology of pandemics:
Initial stages:
1. Denial, rumour growing to panic, outbreak of panic buying and racism, circulation of quack cures.
2. Acceptance followed by adherence to authority, outbreak of collegiality and symbolic altruism
3. Growth of frustration, relaxation of fear due to familiarity, gradual loss of adherence to authority, growth of conspiracy theory
4. End game, return to normal behaviour, analysis of lessons learned, rapid collective forgetting of key responses.
Speed of movement through the phases depends on the virulence of the disease, pace of scientific response, media distribution of messaging, but the same pattern has occurred in numerous pandemic episodes in the last 100 years. The transition out of the second phase is always difficult. Sound familiar??

Varadkar was lucky enough to be leader during the altruism phase and took the credit. An Taoiseach Michael Martin has done the heavy lifting in the 3rd phase when 100+ years of history tells us it will be a tough ask. The recent polls capture this trend very well.

blanch152 · 11-04-2021 12:19pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Out of interest what is his name? And what is this institute?
Any political affiliations?

You seriously have never heard of the ESRI?

Finty Lemon · 11-04-2021 1:01pm

Meanwhile, this weekend Ireland is running 14% ahead of the EU average for rate of vaccine rollout.

Sunny Disposition · 11-04-2021 1:10pm

The Greens have had a huge achievement with the climate change bill, by far their best achievement ever. But they are still tearing themselves asunder. A lot of the members shouldn’t be involved in Irish politics at all, we have coalition governments, if you can’t compromise you can’t function under this system. Eamon Ryan seems like a pragmatist, if quite daft, but the rest of the party are looking like hippy dippy lefty loo las.

FrancieBrady · 11-04-2021 1:17pm

blanch152 wrote: »

You seriously have never heard of the ESRI?

Anything the ESRI has to say needs to be taken with a grain of salt given how it is funded.

Prof Tol said the financial position of the institute affected the independence of the work it produced. He said people who worked there were discouraged from expressing personal opinions to journalists or on social media sites such as Twitter.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland/economist-criticises-aspects-of-esri-1.438031

Finty Lemon · 11-04-2021 2:07pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Anything the ESRI has to say needs to be taken with a grain of salt given how it is funded.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland/economist-criticises-aspects-of-esri-1.438031

"Disgruntled employee criticises aspects of institute on departure". 10 years ago. What a scoop.

Finty Lemon · 11-04-2021 2:14pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Anything the ESRI has to say needs to be taken with a grain of salt given how it is funded.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland/economist-criticises-aspects-of-esri-1.438031

Did you forget to post this when the ESRI raised issues about Darragh oBriens housing policy proposals?

FrancieBrady · 11-04-2021 2:19pm

Finty Lemon wrote: »

"Disgruntled employee criticises aspects of institute on departure". 10 years ago. What a scoop.

No scoop, just always be wary of government funded think tanks is the advice. Just as you and I would be wary of political party funded reports and opinion.

FrancieBrady · 11-04-2021 2:20pm

Finty Lemon wrote: »

Did you forget to post this when the ESRI raised issues about Darragh oBriens housing policy proposals?

I don't think I have ever posted about that TD in my time here.

Finty Lemon · 11-04-2021 4:10pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No scoop, just always be wary of government funded think tanks is the advice. Just as you and I would be wary of political party funded reports and opinion.

A 2019 report by The Tax Foundation (Lunberg and Fritzon) put Ireland 9th of 41 OECD countries in terms of its 'progressiveness' of tax, in other words, Ireland taxes its high earners relatively highly compared to other developed countries. Of course, this is a different metric to the ESRI work on net household income, but the overall message is consistent- Ireland is not a country that let's the highest earners off the hook at the expense of the poor.
The same report also warns against excessive taxation of high earners as this group are essentially the drivers of economic growth and development. This point is often missed by our so-called champions of the poor.

Look to Venezuela, as I'm sure you have.

Finty Lemon · 11-04-2021 4:11pm

The Tax Foundation is not funded by the Irish government

FrancieBrady · 11-04-2021 5:05pm

Finty Lemon wrote: »

A 2019 report by The Tax Foundation (Lunberg and Fritzon) put Ireland 9th of 41 OECD countries in terms of its 'progressiveness' of tax, in other words, Ireland taxes its high earners relatively highly compared to other developed countries. Of course, this is a different metric to the ESRI work on net household income, but the overall message is consistent- Ireland is not a country that let's the highest earners off the hook at the expense of the poor.
The same report also warns against excessive taxation of high earners as this group are essentially the drivers of economic growth and development. This point is often missed by our so-called champions of the poor.

Look to Venezuela, as I'm sure you have.

Have the ESRI ever been wrong Finty?

Just when you need a 'think tank' most...wat 'appens?

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/fitzgerald-admits-esri-totally-wrong-on-banking-collapse-1.2099673?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fbusiness%2Ffinancial-services%2Ffitzgerald-admits-esri-totally-wrong-on-banking-collapse-1.2099673

Be wary is all I am saying.

Eric Cartman · 11-04-2021 5:12pm

Finty Lemon wrote: »

A 2019 report by The Tax Foundation (Lunberg and Fritzon) put Ireland 9th of 41 OECD countries in terms of its 'progressiveness' of tax, in other words, Ireland taxes its high earners relatively highly compared to other developed countries. Of course, this is a different metric to the ESRI work on net household income, but the overall message is consistent- Ireland is not a country that let's the highest earners off the hook at the expense of the poor.
The same report also warns against excessive taxation of high earners as this group are essentially the drivers of economic growth and development. This point is often missed by our so-called champions of the poor.

Look to Venezuela, as I'm sure you have.

our higher rate is too high and its entry point shockingly low. We really need to up that threshold to atleast 75k if not 100k . Also need to scrap USC.

Finty Lemon · 11-04-2021 8:05pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

our higher rate is too high and its entry point shockingly low. We really need to up that threshold to atleast 75k if not 100k . Also need to scrap USC.

I am inclined to agree with you on the high rate band.

blanch152 · 11-04-2021 11:53pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

our higher rate is too high and its entry point shockingly low. We really need to up that threshold to atleast 75k if not 100k . Also need to scrap USC.

Quite the opposite, we need to scrap income tax and retain USC. USC is applied to a lot more income and has less loopholes. Everytime you increase USC by 2%, you can cut income tax rates by 3%.

Geuze · 11-04-2021 11:56pm

Finty Lemon wrote: »

No other tax system in Europe does more to reduce household income inequality than Ireland’s, according to a new study by an economist at the Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI).

While the distribution of household income in Ireland is the most unequal in the EU before taxes and benefits, the study finds that Ireland’s highly progressive tax system substantially offsets this, bringing inequality in take-home income very close to the EU average.

ESRI economist and author of the study, Dr. Barra Roantree, said:

“Before taxes, inequality in Irish household income is much higher than the EU average. But our tax system does more to reduce this than any other country in Europe"

Yes, this is all correct, our taxes are very progressive, and our welfare state is very effective at reducing income inequality.

Indeed, we are one of the few countries where income inequality has been falling.

FrancieBrady · 12-04-2021 12:12am

No surprises here really. Performing poorly with every age category.

https://www.thejournal.ie/micheal-martin-poll-5403936-Apr2021/?utm_source=twitter_short

AlmightyCushion · 12-04-2021 1:16am

blanch152 wrote: »

Quite the opposite, we need to scrap income tax and retain USC. USC is applied to a lot more income and has less loopholes. Everytime you increase USC by 2%, you can cut income tax rates by 3%.

If you do that then you pretty much kill off pensions. You don't pay income tax on pension contributions but you do pay USC on it.

Finty Lemon · 12-04-2021 7:39am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No surprises here really. Performing poorly with every age category.

https://www.thejournal.ie/micheal-martin-poll-5403936-Apr2021/?utm_source=twitter_short

14% ahead of EU on vaccination rates
Low mortality rates relative to EU
Schools back
Huge income support delivered to families

FrancieBrady · 12-04-2021 9:38am

Finty Lemon wrote: »

14% ahead of EU on vaccination rates
Low mortality rates relative to EU
Schools back
Huge income support delivered to families

The public disagree. The public want better.

Bishop of hope · 12-04-2021 9:54am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The public disagree. The public want better.

I'd agree with that, but the caveat is that no matter whose in charge here given the EU supply deal, we won't or wouldn't have gotten any better.
Hopefully the movement on vaccines increases and the roll out speeds up, but yes the public are a bit disgruntled surely, but being fed by the opposition and anti maskers and the always outraged talking pure "****e" for want of a better word, there isn't a better word.

FrancieBrady · 12-04-2021 10:01am

Bishop of hope wrote: »

I'd agree with that, but the caveat is that no matter whose in charge here given the EU supply deal, we won't or wouldn't have gotten any better.
Hopefully the movement on vaccines increases and the roll out speeds up, but yes the public are a bit disgruntled surely, but being fed by the opposition and anti maskers and the always outraged talking pure "****e" for want of a better word, there isn't a better word.

So, it's the opposition's fault?

Floppybits · 12-04-2021 10:18am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So, it's the opposition's fault?

Always the opposition fault Francie. You know they should just sit quietly in the corner and not say nothing.

FrancieBrady · 12-04-2021 10:24am

Floppybits wrote: »

Always the opposition fault Francie. You know they should just sit quietly in the corner and not say nothing.

The Minister For Health seemed to be more concerned about affronts to his vanity in the middle of a pandemic (to use that oft quoted phrase)...BUT the opposition mutter mutter etc etc

https://twitter.com/RoisinShortall/status/1381519668582739968

Brendan Bendar · 12-04-2021 11:02am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The Minister For Health seemed to be more concerned about affronts to his vanity in the middle of a pandemic (to use that oft quoted phrase)...BUT the opposition mutter mutter etc etc

https://twitter.com/RoisinShortall/status/1381519668582739968

Hope he doesn’t start suing like the Shinners have trousered some large wedges doing.

blanch152 · 12-04-2021 11:07am

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

If you do that then you pretty much kill off pensions. You don't pay income tax on pension contributions but you do pay USC on it.

Once we introduce a compulsory pension system, it takes care of that issue.

FF/FG/Green Government - part 2

Comments