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30km/h planned for main roads in Dublin City Council area (not all main roads)

  • 09-04-2021 6:19pm
    #1
    Roadhawk
    Registered Users Posts: 935 ✭✭✭


    I thought it would be a great time to rekindle this gem...

    The introduction of the 30km "Special Speed Limit" looks to become the "Normal" speed limit...around Dublin at least. It is so annoying that the media pitch on this is to save lives and provide better living spaces for residents. There has been no improvement in fatalities on our roads since its introduction of the 30km limits despite the spread of the limit to other roads across Dublin. The limit itself does not save lives. It is more a nuisance to other road users. It has been a clear case of driving a wedge...starting with a few small residential areas that would of course benefit from a 30km limit to then rolling it out to primary routes. Limits have been reduced on roads that clearly do not need or warrant it. The latest discussions being a reduction form 100km to 40km on the M50 during certain times... the "during certain times" piece is the tip of the wedge again here. Give it a year or two and we are sure to see further "progress" on this.


«1345

Comments

  • #2
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,490 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Documentation https://www.dublincity.ie/residential/transportation/speed-limits-dublin-city/loving-30


  • #3
    donvito99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    The latest discussions being a reduction form 100km to 40km on the M50 during certain times... the "during certain times" piece is the tip of the wedge again here. Give it a year or two and we are sure to see further "progress" on this.

    Are you seriously suggesting that the M50 will have a 40kph limit in place permanently?


  • #4
    PeadarCo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,958 ✭✭✭PeadarCo


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    I thought it would be a great time to rekindle this gem...

    The introduction of the 30km "Special Speed Limit" looks to become the "Normal" speed limit...around Dublin at least. It is so annoying that the media pitch on this is to save lives and provide better living spaces for residents. There has been no improvement in fatalities on our roads since its introduction of the 30km limits despite the spread of the limit to other roads across Dublin. The limit itself does not save lives. It is more a nuisance to other road users. It has been a clear case of driving a wedge...starting with a few small residential areas that would of course benefit from a 30km limit to then rolling it out to primary routes. Limits have been reduced on roads that clearly do not need or warrant it. The latest discussions being a reduction form 100km to 40km on the M50 during certain times... the "during certain times" piece is the tip of the wedge again here. Give it a year or two and we are sure to see further "progress" on this.

    To be fair at certain times the 40km/hr speed limit might actually speed the M50 up such as at rush hour. And even if it didn't there were times on the M50 Pre Covid where you'd average half that at the busiest times. A lower speed limit at busier/times the M50 is near capacity might reduce crashes(assuming the limit was actually obeyed/enforced) and actually increase average speeds on the road at busier times.


  • #5
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,158 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    the "during certain times" piece is the tip of the wedge again here.
    do you *honestly* believe anyone has any interest in imposing 40km/h limits on the M50 outside times of heavy congestion?


  • #6
    bigar
    Registered Users Posts: 596 ✭✭✭bigar


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    There has been no improvement in fatalities on our roads since its introduction of the 30km limits despite the spread of the limit to other roads across Dublin.

    Clear proof that no-one is keeping to this speed limit or the reduction would be very clear.

    Time has come to stop expecting drivers to respect the speed limit. This will never happen with the current mentality.

    There is therefore need to start narrowing the roads so that it is impossible to go faster. Fixed Speed cameras, perhaps doubling as red light jumper detection, need to be introduced on as many junctions as possible.


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  • #7
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,158 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i really, really wish people would stop using fatalities as the only metric of road safety too.
    there are no pedestrian fatalities in the last year on the M50, but this is not because the M50 is safe for pedestrians.


  • #8
    jams100
    Registered Users Posts: 806 ✭✭✭jams100


    https://consultation.dublincity.ie/traffic-and-transport/30km-h-survey/

    Another one of these blanket 30km/h proposals from Dcc.

    Check out the map below, basically 90% of areas within DCC they want to become a 30km/h zone!

    https://consultation.dublincity.ie/traffic-and-transport/30km-h-survey/supporting_documents/3369_%20021%2030KP%20Speed%20Limit%20ReviewConcept%20Design%20202101.04.2021.pdf

    An example of why these sort of proposals are ridiculous is Conyngham or even Merrion road which are both proposed to become 30km/h zones.

    Conyngham road is a straight wide road with a segregated cycle track for example, how the f**k is that deemed to be in need of a 30km/h limit? Where is the proportionality between road safety and common sense?

    Most of the segregated cycles lanes built in Dublin city have been a good idea, both for motorists and cyclists and the current 30km/h limits in the likes of Dame street, Capel street, O'Connell Street, sections of quays, around schools etc. all make sense but applying these measures broadly to areas they aren't appropriate for just makes a mockery of the entire 30km/h limit areas that have been introduced to date.

    Without evidence of why these limits are proposed on each road then these proposals are just anti-car.
    Its about time that public officials stop using the "protecting lives" argument to force through their agendas, if there is good rational as to why 30km/h should be introduced for certain roads then by all means put it out there, I'd be likely to agree with it then but this current proposal is a joke.


  • #9
    Duckjob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,859 ✭✭✭Duckjob


    jams100 wrote: »
    https://consultation.dublincity.ie/traffic-and-transport/30km-h-survey/

    Another one of these blanket 30km/h proposals from Dcc.

    Check out the map below, basically 90% of areas within DCC they want to become a 30km/h zone!

    https://consultation.dublincity.ie/traffic-and-transport/30km-h-survey/supporting_documents/3369_%20021%2030KP%20Speed%20Limit%20ReviewConcept%20Design%20202101.04.2021.pdf

    An example of why these sort of proposals are ridiculous is Conyngham or even Merrion road which are both proposed to become 30km/h zones.

    Conyngham road is a straight wide road with a segregated cycle track for example, how the f**k is that deemed to be in need of a 30km/h limit? Where is the proportionality between road safety and common sense?

    Conyngham Road doesnt have any segregated facilities, as far as I can see. No segregration + (in your words) straight wide road is more dangerous because "straight wide road" makes people want to put the foot down.

    Not sure if you mean Chapelizod Road which has partial segregated cycle track and partial useless paint line (As of Sept 2019 in Google Maps anyway, open to correction if things have been updated)

    Merrion Rd AFAIK has nothing other than useless paint lines, which when done that narrowly have been shown to make things more dangerous for people on bikes.


  • #10
    Citrus_8
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭Citrus_8


    Duckjob wrote: »
    Conyngham Road doesnt have any segregated facilities, as far as I can see. No segregration + (in your words) straight wide road is more dangerous because "straight wide road" makes people want to put the foot down.

    Not sure if you mean Chapelizod Road which has partial segregated cycle track and partial useless paint line (As of Sept 2019 in Google Maps anyway, open to correction if things have been updated)

    Merrion Rd AFAIK has nothing other than useless paint lines, which when done that narrowly have been shown to make things more dangerous for people on bikes.
    Currently on a wide big road within city there's zero to none 50 km/h seed enforcement. Do you think it will be enforcement for 30 km/h. Anyone, who was driving somewhere between 50-60 km/h will continue to do so. 30 km/h is too slow - 40 km/h could be ok in some streets, but not blindly everywhere 30 km/h. I personally think it's dumb because there's no better alternatives - public transport could have more priorities to up the average speed and shorten the journey time, also no coins, less bus stops (remove the ones every 150-200 metres). Pedestrians are often crossing the streets where there's a safe crossing close by but they're too lazy to walk a bit. And if they get hit - it's not the speed, but pedestrians stupidity and laziness. Why should I bother to driver slower for some lazy ass stupid pedestrians?
    Just to add the context: I drive, use public transport and walk. I only cross at the crosswalks.

    I think lowering speed everywhere within the Greater Dublin area is stupid. Pedestrians should take care after themselves better. Don't need to punish drivers slowing them down so drastically. Need to enforce pedestrians for inappropriate crossing anywhere they want.


  • #11
    jams100
    Registered Users Posts: 806 ✭✭✭jams100


    Duckjob wrote: »
    Conyngham Road doesnt have any segregated facilities, as far as I can see. No segregration + (in your words) straight wide road is more dangerous because "straight wide road" makes people want to put the foot down.

    Not sure if you mean Chapelizod Road which has partial segregated cycle track and partial useless paint line (As of Sept 2019 in Google Maps anyway, open to correction if things have been updated)

    Merrion Rd AFAIK has nothing other than useless paint lines, which when done that narrowly have been shown to make things more dangerous for people on bikes.

    Yes I meant chapelizod Road, It has a shared cycle track with pedestrians, separated from the road via a curve, generally not many pedestrians so its not a problem with it being shared. Even at that the road is massive so there's more than enough space to pass cyclists even if they don't use the track itself.
    straight wide road is more dangerous because "straight wide road" makes people want to put the foot down.

    No, I don't agree. Straight wide road means your less likely to see a pedestrian jumping out from behind a car or a cyclist enter the road from a blind entrance. In terms of enforcement of current speed limits, well, that's an issue in itself, So in light of what I've said you still believe that 30km/h is warranted on that road?


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  • #12
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,158 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    sure, you disagree with conyngham road being 30km/h. why not engage with the consultation process then?
    to be fair, i can see your point, it doesn't carry much pedestrian traffic at all.


  • #13
    Duckjob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,859 ✭✭✭Duckjob


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    sure, you disagree with conyngham road being 30km/h. why not engage with the consultation process then?
    to be fair, i can see your point, it doesn't carry much pedestrian traffic at all.

    If you're implementing Vision Zero then you should be starting off from the standpoint that anywhere you have any mixing of vehicular and non-vehicular traffic you need to limit vehicle speeds to max 30kph.

    I would love to see that being set EU wide as a legal requirement and implemented nationwide tomorrow. Would be funny to see the serial objectors to any change doing a complete 180 and be scrabbling to support the councils to put in segregated facilities so that higher vehicle speed limits could be re-introduced.


  • #14
    Duckjob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,859 ✭✭✭Duckjob


    ReginaldSmythV wrote: »
    It’s all only another step toward removing vehicles altogether.

    Dramatic much ? They've been improving the streets in Netherlands for over 45 years now, and they haven't removed vehicles altogether there.


  • #15
    donvito99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    ReginaldSmythV wrote: »
    Forgive me, but they seem to be a somewhat forward thinking country whereas the people running this one just seem to be desperate to get their belly rubbed by the EU and go way too far with it.

    Netherlands - forward thinking for putting in cycle lanes and 30kph speed limits.

    Ireland - desperate, EU lackeys for thinking about putting in cycle lanes and 30kph limits.

    That being said, 30kph on trunk routes is not appropriate. What local politicians need to do is get behind Bus Connects and its decent infrastructure. They're not prepared to do this though. Its easier for them to say that they're working towards "Vision Zero" when its just a few thousand speed limit signs and poles and not the removal of parking spaces and stretches of front gardens to build safe road infrastructure for all users.

    Getting Re-Elected > Vision Zero


  • #16
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,280 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Duckjob wrote: »
    If you're implementing Vision Zero then you should be starting off from the standpoint that anywhere you have any mixing of vehicular and non-vehicular traffic you need to limit vehicle speeds to max 30kph.

    I would love to see that being set EU wide as a legal requirement and implemented nationwide tomorrow. Would be funny to see the serial objectors to any change doing a complete 180 and be scrabbling to support the councils to put in segregated facilities so that higher vehicle speed limits could be re-introduced.

    Jaysus thats barbaric. Dublin City still needs vehicular access for tradespeople, delivery drivers, some essential workers etc.. We should never get to those insane levels.


  • #17
    donvito99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    Jaysus thats barbaric. Dublin City still needs vehicular access for tradespeople, delivery drivers, some essential workers etc.. We should never get to those insane levels.

    Lower speed limits does not = no access to cars, vans and lorries.


  • #18
    Duckjob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,859 ✭✭✭Duckjob


    ReginaldSmythV wrote: »
    Forgive me, but they seem to be a somewhat forward thinking country whereas the people running this one just seem to be desperate to get their belly rubbed by the EU and go way too far with it.

    NL are as you say, a very forward thinking country, and they've spent 45 years perfecting the designs of their streets to make then safe and accessible for everyone. (incidentlally drivers are included in this, since Dutch drivers are reported to be the happiest in the world)

    It occurs to me that when you see somebody who has spent a long time perfecting something and is now doing it extremely well, and there is no reason why it cannot be replicated elsewhere, then the smart thing to do is copy what they are doing now as closely as possible.

    It seems somewhat disingenuous and deflectory to start assuming negative motives in authorities trying to do something similar here.

    Besides, given we are still deeply in the throes of car dominance here (on average on roads are probably designed 95% to cater to vehicular traffic, and hugh swathes of our country roads are still designed 100% for cars and nothing else, like this one: https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4800414,-6.1931036,3a,75y,235.77h,85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sO9eck-Z5n-rQUaY-ahSfhQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

    I think its safe to say the needle has a long way to move in the other direction before we get to the stage where we need to question whether things are being taken too far.


  • #19
    Duckjob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,859 ✭✭✭Duckjob


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    Jaysus thats barbaric. Dublin City still needs vehicular access for tradespeople, delivery drivers, some essential workers etc.. We should never get to those insane levels.

    Quit the strawmanning, please.


    ReginaldSmythV wrote: »
    That’s something that’s never thought about though. In this ‘idyllic’ future, most people are out of work but at least you can cycle everywhere.

    Your thesis that economic activity dies when cars can't drive everywhere is not born out by facts.

    In fact, most NL cities, with all their people friendly (and so called "anti-car" by people on here) measures, look a sh*t-tonne more economically vibrant and capable of supporting local businesses than ours do.


  • #20
    donvito99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    ReginaldSmythV wrote: »
    I had said that the endgame here is zero vehicles, and there’s no way economy can work then.

    In what plan or jurisdiction is it proposed to remove all "vehicles" and eviscerate a city's economy - is this the one we're talking about here or the one you've concocted in your head?


  • #21
    Duckjob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,859 ✭✭✭Duckjob


    ReginaldSmythV wrote: »
    You’re assuming the same as the Netherlands. I had said that the endgame here is zero vehicles, and there’s no way economy can work then.

    That's a pretty wacky assertion that the authorities here are trying to eliminate vehicles completely. What evidence do you have to support that ?


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  • #22
    jams100
    Registered Users Posts: 806 ✭✭✭jams100


    Duckjob wrote: »
    That's a pretty wacky assertion that the authorities here are trying to eliminate vehicles completely. What evidence do you have to support that ?

    This current proposal is at best a lazy attempt at trying to do some good but more likely in my opinion just anti-car and to an extent, even anti public transport.

    I wouldn't mind but this same proposal was rejected by the public a number of months ago, all they've done since then is change about 7-10 roads to 40km/h. So it's more or less the same thing going back to public consultation, which was rejected 56 to 44% despite cycling lobby groups campaigning as hard as they could to get this to pass.

    Also the idea that DCC said they have to make the entire city 30km/h just so they can make all areas around schools 30km/h is pure and utter bulls**t. If that is a problem then they should be working with the NTA on how to address that particular anomaly not try to ram through one of their fairy projects.

    Anyway the upshot of all this is even if it does pass all it will do is deteriorate compliance in areas where 30km/h limits currently exist, which are areas where the 30km/h is actually needed and makes sense.


  • #23
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,158 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    at 8:30pm on a sunday evening, google maps is calculating it will take 24 minutes to drive from DCU to UCD. the vast majority of that is on roads currently with 50km/h limits (and there's probably as much on 60km/h limits as there is on 30km/h limits).
    it's 11.3km. so that's an average of 28.25km/h, on 50km/h roads in very light traffic.

    it's not how fast you go on the fast bits that matter. 30km/h limits wouldn't make an awful lot of difference.


  • #24
    Phil.x
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,741 ✭✭✭Phil.x


    Make sure everyone completes the survey and votes against DCC Owens Keegan cycling agenda.


  • #25
    odyssey06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,125 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    at 8:30pm on a sunday evening, google maps is calculating it will take 24 minutes to drive from DCU to UCD. the vast majority of that is on roads currently with 50km/h limits (and there's probably as much on 60km/h limits as there is on 30km/h limits).
    it's 11.3km. so that's an average of 28.25km/h, on 50km/h roads in very light traffic.
    it's not how fast you go on the fast bits that matter. 30km/h limits wouldn't make an awful lot of difference.

    How much longer will the journey take?
    The average time includes time spent stopped at lights.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • #26
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,475 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Phil.x wrote: »
    Make sure everyone completes the survey and votes against DCC Owens Keegan cycling agenda.

    Many of us support cycling agendas. No one would take heed of 30km limits anyway so I don't know why any of you care.


  • #27
    thebaz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,713 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    Many of us support cycling agendas. No one would take heed of 30km limits anyway so I don't know why any of you care.

    I'm a cyclist , rarely drive now , but with more speed cameras people will care once the points start adding up. As a cyclist I'm all against bad drivers, but many bad drivers are slow drivers. Enforce what we have not stupid undriavble limits. The Greens have really lost me.


  • #28
    ianobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,755 ✭✭✭ianobrien


    Oh I'm all for 30kph in residential areas and areas of high pedestrian traffic but a blanket 30kph is just lazy. The existing 50kph should remain for routes that are used to bring traffic into and out.

    Why can't the City Council sit down with the NRA in front of Google Maps and just watch what roads are used to bring traffic into and out of town. Then, leave them roads at 50kph?

    Unless there are speed cameras every 50 meters, people will ignore it as it's a bad law that doesn't make sense


  • #29
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,490 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    ianobrien wrote: »
    Why can't the City Council sit down with the NRA in front of Google Maps and just watch what roads are used to bring traffic into and out of town.
    Th NRA / TII has no authority to do anything on roads that aren't national roads. Th only national roads in Dublin City are the Port Tunnel and associated roads.
    Then, leave them roads at 50kph?
    So you want a lower speed limit on the Chapelizod Bypass and Port Tunnel? :)


  • #30
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,158 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    How much longer will the journey take?
    The average time includes time spent stopped at lights.
    hard to say, but it's key to point out that google's estimate is on a day and at a time where traffic would be extremely light.
    five minutes difference, i'd guess, but that's based on the fact that if you did the *entire* journey at 50km/h, it'd take nine minutes shorter than doing it at 30km/h. but you're not going to get near the theoretical max difference of nine minutes, because a rather significant proportion is going to be done at under 30 anyway.


    i know i can make it across town on a bike, faster than someone in a car. and 30-33km/h would be my typical max cruising speed on the flat.


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  • #31
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    Phil.x wrote: »
    Make sure everyone completes the survey and votes against DCC Owens Keegan cycling agenda.

    Done. Fully support the default 30kph. It's the least we could do. Hopefully enforcement and design changes will follow. Thanks for the heads up.

    Yeah, his cycling agenda is just not good enough these days. I'm coming around to the idea that Owen Keegan, Brendan O'Brien et al. need to go. We need more ambitious people in charge committed to reshaping the city, making it liveable and undoing the decades of damage done to its fabric by motor car dominance. We need people like Robert Burns.


  • #32
    donvito99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    Peregrine wrote: »
    Done. Fully support the default 30kph. It's the least we could do. Hopefully enforcement and design changes will follow. Thanks for the heads up.

    Yeah, his cycling agenda is just not good enough these days. I'm coming around to the idea that Owen Keegan, Brendan O'Brien et al. need to go. We need more ambitious people in charge committed to reshaping the city, making it liveable and undoing the decades of damage done to its fabric by motor car dominance. We need people like Robert Burns.

    It always amazes me the suggestion that Owen Keegan has a cycling agenda. The whole place is given over to traffic, only token infrastructure installed.

    The usual taxi driver nonsense is what it is.


  • #33
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    donvito99 wrote: »
    It always amazes me the suggestion that Owen Keegan has a cycling agenda. The whole place is given over to traffic, only token infrastructure installed.

    The usual taxi driver nonsense is what it is.

    2013: Owen Keegan becomes CEO of Dublin City Council

    2016:
    Photo captures scary reality of Dublin cycling (and story behind it) https://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/photo-captures-scary-reality-of-dublin-cycling-and-story-behind-it/

    2017:
    'A lot of people will not get on bikes because they think it's dangerous. We need segregated routes' https://www.thejournal.ie/cycling-dangerous-dublin-3433128-Jun2017/
    Cycling can be “scary and hazardous” in Dublin, Trinity researchers find https://trinitynews.ie/2017/06/cycling-can-be-scary-and-hazardous-in-dublin-trinity-researchers-find/

    2018:
    Cycling in Ireland: Female cyclists don’t feel safe on our roads https://greennews.ie/female-cyclists-dont-feel-safe-roads/

    2019:
    Actor Simon Delaney says cycling around Dublin for new RTE show frightened the 'bejaysus' out of him https://www.irishmirror.ie/tv/actor-simon-delaney-says-cycling-14046900
    Foreign visitors shocked at conditions for cycling in Dublin https://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/foreign-visitors-cycling-facilities-dublin/
    Cycling in Dublin: ‘We’ve lost our way with private cars’ https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/cycling-in-dublin-we-ve-lost-our-way-with-private-cars-1.3937975
    Dublin disappoints: what happened to city cycling's great hope?https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/jun/25/dublin-disappoints-what-happened-to-city-cyclings-great-hope

    2020:
    'Frustrated, worried, stressed and anxious': The worst places in Ireland to be a cyclist https://www.thejournal.ie/part-one-bicycle-blackspots-ireland-5081804-Apr2020/
    Opinion: Cycling to work shouldn't feel like going to war but I still get flashbacks from being hit by car https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/cycling-dublin-collison-cycling-networks-5002215-Feb2020/
    ‘It’s survival of the fittest’: Dublin Cycling Campaign urges safety measures https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/it-s-survival-of-the-fittest-dublin-cycling-campaign-urges-safety-measures-1.4151933

    Angry motorists on boards.ie: Owen Keegan's cycling agenda something something.


  • #34
    Andrewf20
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,194 ✭✭✭Andrewf20


    Cyclist and motorist here. I wouldn't vote for it.

    Tediously slow speed limit to have across the city. I have actually missed 50 - 30 km/h speed limit changes in parts of the city with a number of more important distractions to deal with. Very easy to rack up points in this day & age.

    I like the USA model of lower speed limits near schools at certain times. Otherwise, drawing the line at 50km/h I would deem appropriate.


  • #35
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,158 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Andrewf20 wrote: »
    I have actually missed 50 - 30 km/h speed limit changes in parts of the city with a number of more important distractions to deal with. Very easy to rack up points in this day & age.

    I like the USA model of lower speed limits near schools at certain times.
    your second statement seems to run contrary to your first. you find geographically fixed speed limits confusing, but time adapted ones not?

    anyway, sticking with your first point, surely a default of 30km/h would thus make life easier? you assume 30km/h unless you know otherwise. less taxing.


  • #36
    Andrewf20
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,194 ✭✭✭Andrewf20


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    your second statement seems to run contrary to your first. you find geographically fixed speed limits confusing, but time adapted ones not?

    anyway, sticking with your first point, surely a default of 30km/h would thus make life easier? you assume 30km/h unless you know otherwise. less taxing.

    In the USA, the school signs were very noticeable. They had flashing lights on the signs to notify motorists when the lower limit was in place during school drop off / pick up. Seemed to work well.

    It looks like the plan is to have the 30km/h limits on alot of roads, but not all. Driving at 30 km/h I find very tedious when traffic is light.


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  • #37
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Andrewf20 wrote: »
    I like the USA model of lower speed limits near schools at certain times. Otherwise, drawing the line at 50km/h I would deem appropriate.

    I'm not sure the USA is a model to promote for anything planning related unless you are a car manufacturer


  • #38
    Andrewf20
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,194 ✭✭✭Andrewf20


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I'm not sure the USA is a model to promote for anything planning related unless you are a car manufacturer

    I would see that as a generalization. I lived there twice & for all its flaws it gets some things right & I saw this as one of them. The rules around school buses is to be commended too, i.e. traffic on both sides must stop when a school bus stops to allow kids off. Their safety rules around schools & traffic are decent. Gun laws less so.


  • #39
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Andrewf20 wrote: »
    I would see that as a generalization. I lived there twice & for all its flaws it gets some things right & I saw this as one of them. The rules around school buses is to be commended too, i.e. traffic on both sides must stop when a school bus stops to allow kids off. Their safety rules around schools & traffic are decent. Gun laws less so.

    They generally enforce their rules, we don't.

    People mostly ignore the limits here because the chance of being caught are tiny.


  • #40
    Roadhawk
    Registered Users Posts: 935 ✭✭✭Roadhawk


    There is a serious lack of consideration for private motorists gone into this agenda but I guess that is the point. Its not a case of leaving earlier for one trip its a case of leaving earlier for every trip. There is not enough time in the day to be crawling down the road while trying to navigate the city. The current infrastructure and issues with urban sprawl in Dublin does not support a 30km limit. recent changes have been a direct reaction to covid 19 and its effect to transport. We really need to ask ourselves what will the roads look like once the covid has passed and people need to travel in and out of work and around the city again. There are some great minds involved in the 30km project but there has been a "shoot from the hip" approach overall and people involved are now taking advantage of a very permanent solution for a temporary issue. Its as if they are trying to make a name for themselves. Dublin's case is being compared with Paris, London, Brussels, Helsinki or Bilbao all of which have extensive affordable public transport including multiple underground metro lines. Dublin is not ready for a 30km limit on arterial roads. Residential estates and schools access absolutely yes but nowhere else at the moment. The media have focused on highlighting the safety benefits of the 30km limit but even with the limit rolled out in many areas across Dublin there has been an increase in road deaths year on year since 2018. The limit does not save lives. Despite these callouts the 30km limit will still be implemented to the advantage of some road users and detriment of others. The momentum from lobbyists and the media on this topic is far too strong at this stage.
    Mark my words that this will turn out to be a mess once normality returns.


  • #41
    markpb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,342 ✭✭✭markpb


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    We really need to ask ourselves what will the roads look like once the covid has passed and people need to travel in and out of work and around the city again.

    Changing to a 30km/h limit is part of re-imagining the city. For a very long time, Dublin focused on getting commuters in cars in and out of the city. It didn't focus on people driving between suburbs, on anyone commuting in ways other than driving and it absolutely didn't focus on anyone who wasn't commuting. That left us with poor footpaths, poor cycle lanes, an awkward city to drive around internally, massive congestion on the M50, air pollution above EU/EPA limits in various places, no public areas in the city's villages, no place to sit and relax outside and a whole host of other problems.

    The last year has shown us what can be done when the focus moves away from commuters and less on drivers. Dundrum, Blackrock and Dun Laoghaire are genuinely nice places to be right now. The quays are becoming a much nicer place for both commuter pedestrians and cyclists but also people just living and moving around the city.

    The 30km/h limit is a small part on that. Other than being understandably frustrating, it will have little or no actual impact on drivers, especially not commuters who are stuck in traffic anyway. But it will make it more pleasant for everyone else, it will make walking and cycling more attractive and it will reduce air pollution.


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  • #42
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,158 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    Its not a case of leaving earlier for one trip its a case of leaving earlier for every trip. There is not enough time in the day to be crawling down the road while trying to navigate the city.
    the notion of being able to hit 50km/h as a matter of course in the city is kinda funny.
    if you've to drive 10km, at 50km/h all the way, the difference between that and 30km/h is eight minutes. that's a theoretical maximum difference the change would make; as mentioned, it's calculated on the basis that you won't have to drop below 50km/h at any point. you'll spend significant amounts of the journey at the same speed in reality, regardless of speed limit.
    i'd stick a finger in the air and hazard a guess at it adding 4 minutes to a 10km journey (and in general, DCC is not much further across than 10 or 12km i suspect).
    and some of the trunk roads you'd be using crossing dublin in that way would remain at 50km/h anyway.


  • #43
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    There is a serious lack of consideration for private motorists gone into this agenda but I guess that is the point. Its not a case of leaving earlier for one trip its a case of leaving earlier for every trip. There is not enough time in the day to be crawling down the road while trying to navigate the city. The current infrastructure and issues with urban sprawl in Dublin does not support a 30km limit. recent changes have been a direct reaction to covid 19 and its effect to transport. We really need to ask ourselves what will the roads look like once the covid has passed and people need to travel in and out of work and around the city again. There are some great minds involved in the 30km project but there has been a "shoot from the hip" approach overall and people involved are now taking advantage of a very permanent solution for a temporary issue. Its as if they are trying to make a name for themselves. Dublin's case is being compared with Paris, London, Brussels, Helsinki or Bilbao all of which have extensive affordable public transport including multiple underground metro lines. Dublin is not ready for a 30km limit on arterial roads. Residential estates and schools access absolutely yes but nowhere else at the moment. The media have focused on highlighting the safety benefits of the 30km limit but even with the limit rolled out in many areas across Dublin there has been an increase in road deaths year on year since 2018. The limit does not save lives. Despite these callouts the 30km limit will still be implemented to the advantage of some road users and detriment of others. The momentum from lobbyists and the media on this topic is far too strong at this stage.
    Mark my words that this will turn out to be a mess once normality returns.
    Genuine question, Roadhawk, have you read the proposal? Because you didn't last time and were making nonsense claims about your journey time doubling.

    Like, do you understand which roads are proposed to be 30kph?

    Like I said last time, the imaginary 45 minute 50kph journey that you described would bring you from one end of the DCC area to the other end three times. Can we talk about any changes to actual journey times as opposed to made up journeys?


  • #44
    Roadhawk
    Registered Users Posts: 935 ✭✭✭Roadhawk


    Its not funny at all. for most involved in this movement the kick is about being part of achieving something...mot fully undertstanding the effectis it might have on some peoples livelihoods. I travel around the the greater Dublin area every day for work and can assure that there are plenty of road that are proposed to be changed to 30km where even 50km is too slow already. Some of the roads on the north side being Verona Avenue, Clonshough Road, Swords Road Fairview, fassaugh ave/rd, cabra road, the navan road, drumcondra road, the north circular??? These need to be 50km.

    Your math is good but again only if all variables are constant. If that were the case my line of work for example requiring roughly 15 -20 journeys per day would mean that i would see a 40% increase to my travel time as 30km is 60% of 50km. If i was soley traveling for work a 40% increase for my day would mean working 11.2 hrs instead of 8hrs. Constants are not the way to prove or disprove this 30km limit.


  • #45
    Roadhawk
    Registered Users Posts: 935 ✭✭✭Roadhawk


    Eh yes, i have since become a key stakeholder in the loving 30 campaign just to have a position of understanding.


  • #46
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    All a 30km speed limit will do is fill the pockets of the speed camera vans and state coffers.

    Between the cost of cars, insurance, tax, fuel and the threat of penalty points putting you off the road for doing 36km in a 30km zone would make ya think twice about having a car these days.


  • #47
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    tommybrees wrote: »
    Between the cost of cars, insurance, tax, fuel and the threat of penalty points putting you off the road for doing 36km in a 30km zone would make ya think twice about having a car these days.

    Correct

    Using the carrot and stick to enable modal shift to more sustainable options


  • #48
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    tommybrees wrote: »
    All a 30km speed limit will do is fill the pockets of the speed camera vans and state coffers.

    Between the cost of cars, insurance, tax, fuel and the threat of penalty points putting you off the road for doing 36km in a 30km zone would make ya think twice about having a car these days.

    Well it won't because they won't enforce it consistently. So the odd person will be hammered but it will have no effect on speeding overall.

    I wish they would police the bad driving we all see daily. Rather than these Tokenism zones.


  • #49
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    tommybrees wrote: »
    All a 30km speed limit will do is fill the pockets of the speed camera vans and state coffers.
    Except..

    "AGS are not enforcing the current 30kph speed limit"

    Your conspiracy theory borne out of some false victimhood would have more merit if they were bothered to enforce it in the first place.

    https://twitter.com/naoiseomuiri/status/1301527614088269824?s=20


  • #50
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,158 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    the north circular??? These need to be 50km.
    the current average speed to get from the phoenix park to the five lamps on the north circular is not 50km/h, and not even 30km/h.

    it's 13km/h.
    based on google maps current calculations.


  • #51
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Correct

    Using the carrot and stick to enable modal shift to more sustainable options

    They won't enforce the stick and even if they did, there's so many other barriers that prevent people from shifting.


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