Now ye're talking - to a man living in Qatar

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Why did you choose to live in a country with such poor Human Rights?

Hi and thank you for the question.

The reason why I live in Qatar is the exact same reason why the 90% of residents who are not Qatari citizens live here - because it offered better opportunities (especially salary) for me and my family than I had in my home country (in my case, Ireland).

I am happy to talk about what I know about human rights issues, but it is a huge subject, so is there something specific that you have in mind?

cloudatlas wrote: »

I think the World Cup will be a farce as many of the marathon runners in 2019 collapsed before the finish line. https://www.dw.com/en/opinion-everyones-a-loser-at-the-world-athletics-championships-in-qatar/a-50688080

On the flight I was on there was a propaganda video stating that they are a major port. Seeing all the ships lit up at night in the sea as the flight went over was very beautiful.

It's troubling that they destroyed many old historic buildings to build shiny modern buildings. I know they have an amazing library that was built by a Dutch architect I think- Do you know anything about that?

I know someone who is gay who is a perpetual student in the u.k as they are avoiding an arranged marriage.

How restricted are your movements, do you just go from a compound to work everyday?

What do the locals think of how many workers died building the stadiums? Does that kind of thing every come up in conversation?

Thanks for your questions

So, to answer in the same order:

The World Cup will be in November and December, when the daytime temperatures are about 25 degrees. If the games are played later in the evening to accommodate European TV schedules then the temperature will be more like 20 degrees - not a problem I think for professional athletes.

Qatar has built a new and very large port in recent years - prior to that a lot of goods came through Dubai.

Qatar is really a very new country and prior to the discovery of gas it was very poor. There are and never were any old historic buildings. The buildings that have been knocked down in recent years to make way for the newer buildings dated from the 60s and 70s. If you are interested in architecture there are some stunning new buildings - there's the library that you referred to, Jean Nouvel's National Museum, and my personal favourite, IM Pei's Museum of Islamic Art
https://www.idesignarch.com/museum-of-islamic-art-in-doha-by-i-m-pei/
http://www.jeannouvel.com/en/projects/musee-national-du-qatar/

I can't talk knowledgably about what it is like to be gay in Qatar. I've never heard of people being prosecuted, but that may not mean that it hasn't happened. As for avoiding arranged marriages - my guess is that there's quite a few heterosexuals who are also permanent students for that reason!

There are no restrictions on my movements, and I'm not aware of any restrictions on the movements of anyone else - with one caveat - the swankier shopping malls seem to have a policy of not allowing male manual labourers to go inside.

As for the deaths in the construction sector it tends not to come up much in conversation. Depending on other questions I might do a longer post about this issue.

Mars Bar wrote: »

Salam Alaykum!

Ramadan is just around the corner. How traditional is Qatar during Ramadan, discounting last year which wasn't normal and this year won't be either?

In Abu Dhabi, mid-way through Ramadan last year, they did away with the curtains and eating behind closed doors in tourist areas and malls. They are continuing it this year much to the disgruntlement of the more devout Muslims.

How are they dealing with PCR testing and vaccinations? UAE was swift and ruthless and it has paid off.

Hi and thanks for the question.

My sense is that Qatar is a little more conservative than the UAE, but more liberal than, for example, Saudi Arabia or Kuwait.

During Ramadan the only restaurants where you will get food during the day are in some (but not all) of the more expensive hotels. All other restaurants, cafes, fast-food places - every food and beverage outlet - is shut during the fasting hours. The sale of alcohol is forbidden during Ramadan (but everyone who drinks alcohol will have plenty at home). So in that sense it seems to be stricter than the UAE.

Even though I'm not a Muslim I will benefit from the shorter working day that some employments apply during Ramadan. I am often invited to suhoors and iftars - Ramadan is a time when a lot of corporate entertainment is done, but I think that this year there will be none (outside of private homes).

As for coping with Covid, one of the first things that the government did was to introduce a contact tracing app. Unless you download the app, and your status on the app is green, you will not be allowed to enter workplaces, schools, shops, malls etc.

The public healthcare system in Qatar is really quite good - they plough a lot of money into it, and it is free to everyone. Like a lot of Westerners I have health insurance, but that just gets me into the fancy hospitals with better food and a private room - but if I was really sick I would go to the public hospital.

PCR tests are widely available in local health clinics. As for vaccines, Qatar has a population of 2.8m and the latest numbers say that almost 1m vaccines have been administered. However I suspect that the 300,000 Qataris have all had two jabs meaning that the other 2.5m have had 400,000 between them.

I also suspect that the relatively wealthier westerners are getting priority. I'm in my late 50s and I've had two jabs.

Qatar is currently experiencing its second wave of infections. The level of infections is lower than the first wave, but the hospitalisation and mortality rates seem to be higher.

Mars Bar wrote: »

Shukran! I would say that Bahrain and Qatar are very similar and agree that the UAE is more liberal and Saudi the least. I lived in Kuwait for a very brief period and thank my lucky stars I'm not stranded there right now. Horrible place.

You say you are in your late 50's, how long have you been in Qatar and do you mind saying if you're a teacher or not? Were you in other areas of the Middle East first?

I have been in Qatar for more than 10 years - I'm not a teacher, nor do I work in engineering/construction. I'd guess that most Irish in Qatar are in those professions. I work as an administrator in the public sector.

Before coming to Qatar I had never lived outside Ireland, though it was an itch that I had always wanted to scratch - and I'm glad I did.

artanevilla wrote: »

How do you feel about raising your daughter in a country that treats women as 2nd class citizens?

Thank you for the (loaded) question.

I was raised in Ireland, a country that treated women as second class citizens. My mother, a professional woman, needed my father's permission to open a bank account. The marriage bar was in place until 1973.

I'm sure I don't need to list out the changes that have taken place Ireland over the past 50 years that have made it a more gender-equal society, but I don't think we're there yet. As far as I know Article 41.2 is still in the Constitution.

But to answer your question, the legal and cultural issues that affect women's rights in Qatar apply in the main to Qatari women - they did not apply to or otherwise affect my daughter.

AhhHere wrote: »

HI there

My friend lived in Qatar. Loved it. Had a great time. Did 2 years and moved on. We spoke about the human rights issues oftem reported and he would dismiss them as misreporting of our media.

Have you seen or heard any bad work environments for immigrants of non-western countries? I feel he only intereacted with other western expats so has a biased view. If yes, what is the view on this from yourself and other expats (from western countries)?

Thanks.

Hi and thanks for the question.

I have of course heard of bad working environments and bad treatment of workers in Qatar - these are often (but probably not always) reported in the local media, and of course being a westerner I get my news mainly from western sources.

I think I'll do a stand-alone post about manual/construction workers in Qatar. Please have a read of that and, if you still have questions, by all means come back to me.

Lmkrnr wrote: »

Did the two Boobie Girls make the News in Qatar?

I don't think so, but the Ukrainian models on the balcony in Dubai certainly did!

feargantae wrote: »

You mention money quite a few times in your answers so can i ask how much you earn a month? Would it be safe to assume you live quite comfortably?

You've been away from Éire for a decade but do you often come back home to visit? Current situation excluded of course! How do you stay in touch with Ireland/Irish culture? Would you watch RTÉ/TG4, keep up with Irish news, elections, current affairs etc?

So I am an experienced and senior manager. When I left Ireland 10 years ago I was earning 100,000 Euros. I more than doubled my salary. I do live comfortably, but life here can be expensive too. You really can't buy property and renting is expensive - a 4-bed family house would cost around 4,000 Euros per month.

I come back to Ireland at least once a year and often twice - but I'm not sure that I'll ever live there again (the weather is atrocious!).

I read the Irish news online and follow various commentators on Twitter, but I don't watch Irish TV.

listermint wrote: »

With all due respect I've the utmost respect for their beliefs and culture , I was responding to what was evidently untrue that this would not impact your daughter. The poster was correct it will . It impacts a swathe of choices for her.

I have no feelings on a wholely muslim country changing it's culture to suit me. I know many muslim people it's their faith ,just like any other faith. Folks are free to practice and live their religious choices.

I was merely pointing out an inaccuracy in your response and noting that your comparison to an ireland a generation ago was weak.


Thanks for taking part btw . Its good discussion.

I think perhaps you are not appreciating that I and my family live in a world that is almost hermetically sealed from Arabic and Muslim culture - largely because that is how our hosts want it.

My daughter went to a fantastic international school, has just aced the International Baccalaureate, and is already accepted into a prestigious European university.

Growing up in a multicultural environment in Qatar has broadened her perspectives and has given her far more choices in life than if we had stayed in Ireland.

I certainly came here for the money, but the real long-term benefit has been the experience and opportunities that all of our children have had.

James Bond Junior wrote: »

I live in Oman, similar experience. A few friends came from Qatar to Oman and all have very fond memories. On the blue collar worker thing, yes they don't have it easy but it beats where most of these people come from in India or Bangladesh. They are there for the same reason as all of us, economic migration and to send money home to make a better life when they return.

I have visited Oman, and I also have a few friends who moved from Qatar to Oman.

One of the things that people tell me is that you are much more likely to have an opportunity to have social interactions with Omanis than with Qataris. The Omanis are not as wealthy, and you will find them running corner shops and driving taxis etc. jobs that you will never find a Qatari doing.

AdrianBalboa wrote: »

I personally believe that any Westerner who moves to authoritarian theocracies such as Qatar or the UAE are complicit in the human rights atrocities committed by the local regime. In other words the price for your high salary and standard of living is being paid for by slave labour+.

What is your immediate response to my beliefs?

Going off topic for a moment I remember there was an AMA in here with an American policeman and the only dissenting poster was asked not to post again.

I wasn’t a member of the site then but I remember thinking that it was incredible that the moderators who ran this forum were allowing propaganda be issued on this site in favour of a paramilitary terrorist organisation like the US police.

I’m just pointing this out because I think the same thing is happening here today, that a poster is using Boards.ie in order to distribute pro-Qatar propaganda. After George Floyd that first poster in the police thread will be perceived to be on the right side of history and so will I when the true extent of the atrocities committed in order to build the football stadiums(!) for Qatar 2022 emerge.



+source: https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/world-cup-2022-qatar-s-workers-slaves-building-mausoleums-stadiums-modern-slavery-kafala-a7980816.html

Firstly, let me say that you are entitled to whatever beliefs you think are appropriate for you. I have no response, immediate or otherwise, to your beliefs. I will however discuss workers rights. You may not like or agree with what I say - but it is not propaganda, it is fact.

Secondly, you can certainly make the argument that any Westerner who moves to countries like Qatar or the UAE are complicit in the human rights atrocities committed by the local regime, but if you are to be fair you must also accept that anyone who buys a shirt made in the sweatshops of Bangladesh, or owns a smartphone with cobalt mined by children in DRC, or drinks lattes made from coffee harvested by wage slaves is equally complicit in those human rights atrocities. The world is enormously unfair and all of us white western posters on Boards.ie live lives that depend upon the exploitation of others.

We tend not to see the connections between out lifestyles and the exploitation of others because that exploitation takes place far away from us. Perhaps the difference in the Middle East is that the wealthy and the poor live side by side.

By the way my salary is not paid for by slave labour, my salary is paid from the emormous wealth of the State of Qatar, which in turn is based on the fact that they happen to share with Iran the largest natural gas field in the world.

So, turning then to the construction that is taking place in Qatar (including the Stadia - though that is just a small part of the total). I think that it can sometimes be difficult to comprehend the scale of the construction work that is taking place in Qatar. The Qataris are currently spending half a billion dollars a week on infrastructure. There is a new airport, harbour, Metro, motorways, 5G systems, public parks, sewage systems, water desalination plants, district cooling plants and dozens of new hotels. The infrastructure is far ahead of any European city that I can think of, all done in 20 years or so.

My work relates (at a tangent at least) to the insurance industry and so I am (to some degree) familiar with death rates, and statistics about the levels of accidents in the workplace etc.

Some media commentators (and I think the Guardian leads the charge here) frequently refer to the thousands of migrant workers who have dies since Qatar was awarded the World Cup. For example:

Revealed: 6,500 migrant workers have died in Qatar since World Cup awarded
Guardian analysis indicates shocking figure over the past decade likely to be an underestimate
www.theguardian.com

Let's accept the number of 6,500 as a fact.

The population of Qatar is 2.9m of which only about 300,000 are Qatari. Only the Qataris can stay in Qatar indefinitely so the other 2.5m (including me) are migrant workers. But let us assume that we're talking about "blue-collar" workers only. Approx 69.7% of the migrant workers in Qatar are "blue-collar":
(PDF) Demography, Migration, and Labour Market in Qatar- UPDATED June 2017.

That gives us 1.8m manual workers - mostly from South East Asia - India, Nepal, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka.

The article mentions that Filipinos and Kenyans are not included in its death tally. Most Filipinos speak English very well and are typically employed in the retail and services sectors - with some working as home help. I have never seen a Filipino doing unskilled manual labour. Most Kenyans also speak English and seem to be usually employed (male and female) as security guards - I have never seen a Kenyan doing unskilled manual labour. The Filipinos (approx 250,000) are therefore typically not in the "blue-collar" category. There are approx 30,000 Kenyans - I'm not sure how they are classified but that number does not materially impact on things.

So returning to the number of deaths - 6,500 over 10 years = 650 per annum. Let's also reduce the number of manual workers from 1.8m to 1.5m because numbers have probably increased over the past couple of years.

That gives us 650 deaths per year from a population of 1.5m males (aged typically from 25 - 55) from India, Nepal, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka.

That in turn gives us a death rate of 43 per 100,000. In the United States the death rate for men between the ages of 25 and 55 is 306.

Another factor that should lead to a higher number for Qatari manual labourers is that most are engaged in the construction sector, which in every country has a higher accident and death rate than for all employments aggregated.

On the other side of the scales we should remember that the American numbers count everyone in the United States of that age group whereas the Qatar migrants numbers relate only to men who were fit to work and who passed a health and blood test - for example, anyone with TB or AIDS is not allowed in.

Nevertheless, bringing all of this together, the real story here is not why is the death rate among Qatar migrant manual workers so high, but why is it so low?

There are a couple of factors:
• The first reason is that all of the workers who come to Qatar (including me) must pass a health check. So anyone with a serious underlying condition or illness cannot work in Qatar, and that is definitely skewing the numbers;
• Secondly employment, accommodation and nutrition standards for manual workers are fairly good in general, perhaps not what the average boards.ie reader might find acceptable, but the average low-skilled South Asian worker, coming from the slums of Dhaka or Lahore, is generally content.
• Thirdly labour rights and health and safety standards are probably the best in the region - and I know that may not be saying much - but the Qataris appear to be genuinely engaged in this issue. The International Labor Organisation has a permanent office in Qatar and works closely with the Government on issues affecting workers rights. It has to be said that it is a work in progress, but it is moving. ILO Project Office for the State of Qatar (Arab States)
• And finally there is world-class healthcare system in Qatar, it is available to every resident, and it is free. I am fully vaccinated against Covid. My teenage kids got their first shots last week, and they queued up at a public vaccination station along with workers from every nationality.

I will make a separate post about the wages paid to manual workers.

smurfjed wrote: »

I would rate Omanis as the friendliest, and strangely enough Saudi’s in second place. In the UAE, Qatar, Bahrain and Kuwait, I have never really interacted with locals, they just don’t appear to do jobs where you would interact with them.

The World Cup will be a big deal next year, but are they seriously ready for football fans? What about the price of a beer, will it be within the budget of most fans. With games days apart, what are they golfing to do to keep these fans amused.

Usually you can only get a beer in a hotel bar, and they're all in 4 or 5 star hotels. A beer can easily cost 15 Euros, but usually there is a "happy hour" from 5-7 when selected beers (usually the most popular) are half price. They're generally OK with you ordering 2 or 3 more beers at 6:55.

At the recent world club football finals in February there were Fan-zones set up near the stadium where they provided live music and alcohol. Most people think that was a "dry" run for the World Cup.

I don't think there'll be as many fans travelling from Europe as there would be if the Cup was held in Europe, but they'll have no problem filling the stadiums with Saudis, Egyptians, Syrians etc. Every able-bodied Qatari will also attend every game that they can - they are stone mad for football. I have heard, its just a rumour, that Qatari companies have bought up all of the boxes and that unless you are a FIFA sponsor you won't be able to get a box.

As for what the fans might to to stay amused I wonder myself if some fans will opt to base themselves in Dubai and fly in and out for the games.

YoshiReturns wrote: »

How does the country/culture handle/tolerate stuff like littering, illegal dumping, dog fouling, anti social behaviour, gangs ...
Stuff that seems to get kid gloves treatment in Ireland and makes life depressing here ?

Hi and thanks for the question.

So the demographics of Qatar are nothing like what they are in most other countries:
https://www.populationpyramid.net/qatar/2019/

The vast majority of non-Qataris living in the country are here to work and to make money to send home, whether home is Berlin or Bangalore. Crime is exceptionally low and, where people are caught and jailed for criminal activity they are immediately deported on release. Serious anti-social behaviour might also result in deportation. But apart from the occasional westerner making an ass of himself/herself under the influence of alcohol, or minor burglaries, there is very little anti-social behavior among immigrants.

Nobody under the age of 21 is allowed into a bar, so western teenagers mainly socialise at each others houses. Usually from about the age of 16 it is understood that there might be a few beers or glasses of wine available for those that want it. A surprisingly high number of kids don't drink and it's my impression that western teenagers are much more likely to have Indian or Arabic friends than their parents.

Qatari teenagers aren't supposed to have access to drink, maybe some do, nowhere is perfect. But the biggest anti-social behaviour that you'll find Qatari boys up to is driving very fast in big SUVs. I prefer to keep well out of their way.

Littering and illegal dumping are a problem in the country, and it is real shame to find litter in otherwise beautiful parts of the coastline or desert. The air quality is also not good in Doha and I would caution anyone with serious respiratory issues about coming to live here. The emissions from the oil and gas industries, and the related petro-chemical plants, and the dust caused by the scale of construction all combine with the natural sandy and dusty conditions to make air quality a real issue.