DART+ (DART Expansion)

LXFlyer · 02-04-2021 5:37pm

Peregrine wrote: »

A Ballybough station would make much more sense after DART Underground. Right now it would only allow one stop journeys to the Docklands and outward journeys to the Glasnevin interchange and Maynooth.

I don't think Kilcock is comparable to Kylemore, Kilmainham and Cabra. Firstly, an extension to Kilcock is about more than just a station. There's the need to dual track along a tight corridor and electrification before you even think about the work needed for a station there including possible replacement of the only bridge in town. Secondly, it isn't in the GDA Transport Strategy and isn't part of the project scope. DART+ West was always going to terminate at Maynooth. It just so happened that the site they chose for a depot is close to Kilcock. I'd say the collective reaction from Irish Rail/IDOM when people called for an extension to Kilcock was "What?? Oh, I suppose it is nearby...didn't realise.". I'm not against it or anything but it was never going to happen under this project.

Well I really meant that none of them clearly were budgeted for in this project.

As for Kilcock, well project scopes can change - politics is not black and white!

Pete_Cavan · 02-04-2021 8:50pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Well I really meant that none of them clearly were budgeted for in this project.

As for Kilcock, well project scopes can change - politics is not black and white!

The Dublin Inquirer article which forms the basis of the recent discussion states;

In the DART Expansion Options Assessment Report, a station at Kylemore was included as part of the full expansion, and in thetender for DART+ South West design consultants, Kylemore station was included as a possible element of the works.

The Options Assessment Draft Report from 2018 shows €8.5m in the Cost Breakdowns for both Bundles 2 and 6.

They have to replace the existing Kylemore Road bridge, widen the trackbed to accommodate two additional tracks, install electrical infrastructure, new signalling, etc. It would be mad to not also build at the same time two platforms or even a single island platform (assuming only DARTs will stop there).

SeanW · 03-04-2021 10:07am

MattS1 wrote: »

So the only benefit then is slightly more frequent trains then?

You'll also have a dramatically more comfortable ride, the difference between travelling on just about any EMU versus the 29000 Class eardrum splitting, bone-jarring rattleboxes is night and day.

Sam Russell · 03-04-2021 11:14am

SeanW wrote: »

You'll also have a dramatically more comfortable ride, the difference between travelling on just about any EMU versus the 29000 Class eardrum splitting, bone-jarring rattleboxes is night and day.

I remember going from Heuston to Ennis, change at Limerick Junction. Lovely smooth comfortable trip to LJ, then change onto the rattle wagon to Limerick, and reverse out to go onto Ennis. You are right, the 29000 trains are woeful.

Also, if the train (Dart) has more stops, it is going to take longer. And while every Dart train stops at every station, and no train can pass another, then average journey times will be slow. They need to build in, where possible, passing loops so they can introduce the 'fast' Dart service that gets past the 'slow' Dart in front.

LXFlyer · 03-04-2021 12:09pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I remember going from Heuston to Ennis, change at Limerick Junction. Lovely smooth comfortable trip to LJ, then change onto the rattle wagon to Limerick, and reverse out to go onto Ennis. You are right, the 29000 trains are woeful.

Also, if the train (Dart) has more stops, it is going to take longer. And while every Dart train stops at every station, and no train can pass another, then average journey times will be slow. They need to build in, where possible, passing loops so they can introduce the 'fast' Dart service that gets past the 'slow' Dart in front.

The connecting train at Limerick Junction would have been a 2800 DMU. They serve a purpose on the network where loads are lighter or for relatively shorter journeys. The track from Limerick Junction to Limerick is entirely relaid as CWR so “rattles” should be minimal.

The question about journey times was in relation to the Maynooth line.

The faster acceleration of EMUs over DMUs will compensate for the additional stops on that line.

Now the northern line is a different kettle of fish, but we will have to wait to see the proposals there.

Ireland trains · 03-04-2021 12:14pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Also, if the train (Dart) has more stops, it is going to take longer. And while every Dart train stops at every station, and no train can pass another, then average journey times will be slow. They need to build in, where possible, passing loops so they can introduce the 'fast' Dart service that gets past the 'slow' Dart in front.

Any time lost from additional stops (pelletstown, glasnevin) will b more than compensated by faster acceleration by EMU trains. Look at journey planner between pearse and connolly, dart is about 2 min faster than diesel

Sam Russell · 03-04-2021 12:18pm

Ireland trains wrote: »

Any time lost from additional stops (pelletstown, glasnevin) will b more than compensated by faster acceleration by EMU trains. Look at journey planner between pearse and connolly, dart is about 2 min faster than diesel

Are there different speed limits for diesels? I know there are for locomotives.

Sam Russell · 03-04-2021 12:20pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

The connecting train at Limerick Junction would have been a 2800 DMU. They serve a purpose on the network where loads are lighter or for relatively shorter journeys. The track from Limerick Junction to Limerick is entirely relaid as CWR so “rattles” should be minimal.

The term 'rattle' was more the noise level, plus the fact that the train was full of passengers, while the IC train was comfortably full, but not full, and serene by comparison.

LXFlyer · 03-04-2021 12:23pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

The term 'rattle' was more the noise level, plus the fact that the train was full of passengers, while the IC train was comfortably full, but not full, and serene by comparison.

Look it’s a 26 minute journey from Limerick Junction to Limerick.

That kind of short journey is fine for a 2800 set.

Let’s not get carried away here.

LXFlyer · 03-04-2021 12:29pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Are there different speed limits for diesels? I know there are for locomotives.

It is nothing to do with speed limits but the faster acceleration/deceleration of EMUs over DMUs.

The previous poster isn’t quite correct though - there is very little difference in running times between Pearse and Connolly for the two types of train - it can be done in 4 mins by both . But over a trip to Maynooth you would definitely see a difference.

MJohnston · 03-04-2021 1:55pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Look it’s a 26 minute journey from Limerick Junction to Limerick.

That kind of short journey is fine for a 2800 set.

Let’s not get carried away here.

I think you’re missing the original tree a bit here for the woods. A poster was originally just pointing out that the DART is a more pleasant ride.

LXFlyer · 03-04-2021 3:24pm

MJohnston wrote: »

I think you’re missing the original tree a bit here for the woods. A poster was originally just pointing out that the DART is a more pleasant ride.

And someone digressed from that to talk about a DMU from Limerick Junction, to which I replied as I disagreed.

It’s a brief digression.

MyLove4Satan · 04-04-2021 7:25pm

CatInABox wrote: »

Once again, the Dublin Inquirer asking questions that the national newspapers don't. Where other, larger, newspapers are spending their time questioning why we need this project, or why we need to close roads to do it, the Inquirer has the imagination to go out and ask why the project isn't better.

Have to admit, Ballyfermot is getting short shrift here. Same with the North Strand area, two areas of Dublin that are currently deprived and would benefit greatly from having a Dart station as part of these plans.

Stinks of the old 'Bus for the working class - DART for the middle class' mentality. Not building a station at either Ballyfermot or Cabra West defies logic if you want to maximize commuting potential. It is not like any major engineering obstacles would rule these out.

cgcsb · 05-04-2021 12:28am

MyLove4Satan wrote: »

Stinks of the old 'Bus for the working class - DART for the middle class' mentality. Not building a station at either Ballyfermot or Cabra West defies logic if you want to maximize commuting potential. It is not like any major engineering obstacles would rule these out.

At 400k a pop for a two bed I'd call into question how 'working class' Cabra can be considered to be anymore. I think it's simple corner cutting

marno21 · 06-04-2021 5:29pm

Tender out for ground investigations for DART+ Southwest for the 2 to 4 track widening

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/186166/0/0?returnUrl=ctm/Supplier/publictenders&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE

MyLove4Satan · 06-04-2021 9:06pm

marno21 wrote: »

Tender out for ground investigations for DART+ Southwest for the 2 to 4 track widening

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/186166/0/0?returnUrl=ctm/Supplier/publictenders&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE

I am assuming this is for four tracks from Hueston?

MyLove4Satan · 06-04-2021 9:07pm

cgcsb wrote: »

At 400k a pop for a two bed I'd call into question how 'working class' Cabra can be considered to be anymore. I think it's simple corner cutting

Either way a station on the old cement yard is a no brainer.

IE 222 · 08-04-2021 9:04pm

I wonder is a lack of stations at Kylmore, Carba and Hueston West down to the fact IE still want DU.

Kylmore can take a station but not a quad station. The current UP lines will go to Dart meaning platforms would need to be on UP side. If DU ever gets the go ahead with a portal in Inchicore the running lines would need to reverse which would render the platforms useless. The other 2 would see serious reduction in level of services as they wouldn't have the capacity to run PPT and DU services west of Inchicore and would of obviously lead to a conflict with IC services at Island Bridge.

Pete_Cavan · 08-04-2021 9:23pm

Measuring Parkwest station on Google Maps, it is less than 30m wide. 30m could be achieved at Kylemore by removing the vegetation and embankments and having a vertical retaining wall instead. The road bridge needs to be placed anyway so the width can be provided there. Less space would be required if only two platforms were provided, and less again if they were combined in an island.

If quad-tracking is completed into Heuston, DU tunnel will not extend to Inchicore. Ending the tunnel at Heuston has already been mentioned as a cost cutting measure. With quad-tracking in place there would be little benefit for the considerable cost of tunnelling to Inchicore.

IE 222 · 08-04-2021 11:32pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Measuring Parkwest station on Google Maps, it is less than 30m wide. 30m could be achieved at Kylemore by removing the vegetation and embankments and having a vertical retaining wall instead. The road bridge needs to be placed anyway so the width can be provided there. Less space would be required if only two platforms were provided, and less again if they were combined in an island.

If quad-tracking is completed into Heuston, DU tunnel will not extend to Inchicore. Ending the tunnel at Heuston has already been mentioned as a cost cutting measure. With quad-tracking in place there would be little benefit for the considerable cost of tunnelling to Inchicore.

Even if they can squeeze in a quad station I don't see the need or benefit of doing so. Would the fact the line is in a cutting there not require a different approach in terms of a bridge where as all the others are raised over the line, not sure if that would make a difference in terms of remaining space.

Quad tracking into Hueston was always apart of the Kildare route plan either way.

It was put forward alright but can't remember what the pros and cons where on it, was it a turn back or portal at Hueston? Having future DU notions lingering in the background seems to be hampering and taking precedence over current infrastructure needs.

Peregrine · 09-04-2021 12:37am

A Kylemore Road station for DART services isn't incompatible with DART Underground.

The DART Underground tunnel portal isn't planned to be at Inchicore anymore. It will be north of the line between Sarsfield Road and Con Colbert Road. So the track alignment will be slow, slow, fast, fast. In fact, Kylemore Road was proposed in 2017 instead of the underground Inchicore station by the same engineers who recommended moving the DU tunnel portal away from Inchicore to Con Colbert Road. That's where Kylemore Road came from.

Pete_Cavan · 09-04-2021 6:30am

IE 222 wrote: »

Having future DU notions lingering in the background seems to be hampering and taking precedence over current infrastructure needs.

I don't think that's true, if a station at Kylemore Road isn't being provided it will be down to penny pinching. It's also possible that people are jumping the gun in relation to Kylemore so we need to see the DART+ South West proposals before we know what the intentions are.

brownbinman · 09-04-2021 9:23am

MyLove4Satan wrote: »

Either way a station on the old cement yard is a no brainer.

there's apartments going in there now unless there's a station in the plans or there's room left for one

LXFlyer · 09-04-2021 10:02am

brownbinman wrote: »

there's apartments going in there now unless there's a station in the plans or there's room left for one

There is room for the station beside the development.

Bsharp · 09-04-2021 6:55pm

Peregrine wrote: »

A Kylemore Road station for DART services isn't incompatible with DART Underground.

The DART Underground tunnel portal isn't planned to be at Inchicore anymore. It will be north of the line between Sarsfield Road and Con Colbert Road. So the track alignment will be slow, slow, fast, fast. In fact, Kylemore Road was proposed in 2017 instead of the underground Inchicore station by the same engineers who recommended moving the DU tunnel portal away from Inchicore to Con Colbert Road. That's where Kylemore Road came from.

There's a study ongoing looking at various DU portal options

0gac3yjefb5sv7 · 09-04-2021 6:57pm

Is the DART to Maynooth definitely going ahead or is it still in the planning may/may not happen phase?

Bsharp · 09-04-2021 6:59pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I don't think that's true, if a station at Kylemore Road isn't being provided it will be down to penny pinching. It's also possible that people are jumping the gun in relation to Kylemore so we need to see the DART+ South West proposals before we know what the intentions are.

I think it would be some form of penny pinching. We need to put stations where's there's demand and engineerour way to provide efficient services.
A station close to Kylemore road makes a lot of sense for public transport integration between red luas, orbital bus services and DART+. It would serve existing development as well as the scale of development that is ongoing around Naas Road which Red Luas and BusConnects don't have capacity for; royal liver site, southwest gateway etc.

LXFlyer · 09-04-2021 7:00pm

MattS1 wrote: »

Is the DART to Maynooth definitely going ahead or is it still in the planning may/may not happen phase?

Second public consultation is due in Q2.

Next phase after that is Railway Order application.

L1011 · 09-04-2021 7:01pm

MattS1 wrote: »

Is the DART to Maynooth definitely going ahead or is it still in the planning may/may not happen phase?

Its at an advanced stage of planning and going to go for a Railway Order (railway version of planning permission) soon.

However, until there's actually diggers in the ground and poles going up, it could end up not happening.

Bsharp · 09-04-2021 7:06pm

MattS1 wrote: »

Is the DART to Maynooth definitely going ahead or is it still in the planning may/may not happen phase?

It is all good for now, should at least get to the pre-construction phase and then it's a funding issue as always.

I hope the need to meet climate 2050 targets will help push it along. The business case for rail projects has been a challenge due to the costs involved and appraisal guidance that is not fit for purpose. This shortcoming has been recognised at department level and a jaspers report on the WRC highlighted it too. So in this context the case for electrified rail expansion is better than its ever been.

DART+ (DART Expansion)

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