What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

stefanovich · 08-04-2021 05:05PM

astrofool wrote: »

The EMA approval process is independent of the supply contracts with the EU (hence why there is a rolling review of Sputnik which isn't part of the EU negotiated supply), keeping the regulator independent is a good way of ensuring that there is a level playing field and keeping politics out of medicine as much as possible.

Okay - but my assertion was that drug companies cannot be sued, I was referring to the US in my initial comment but it does appear that the contract the EU has with AZ protects them from litigation.

fin12 · 08-04-2021 05:07PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

That’s not what forced means. Forced means you have no choice.

You had a choice. You made the choice. You’re going to be fine.

What you’re actually saying is you want special treatment. You want the vaccine that is in short supply and is being used in the over 70s.

I don’t want special treatment , I don’t think they should be giving this vaccine to anybody .

stefanovich · 08-04-2021 05:07PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

That’s not what forced means. Forced means you have no choice.

You had a choice. You made the choice. You’re going to be fine.

What you’re actually saying is you want special treatment. You want the vaccine that is in short supply and is being used in the over 70s.

There's certainly a lot of incentivisation happening. Vaccine bonus etc.

Will it end up being a choice between taking a vaccine or staying in lockdown?

LLMMLL · 08-04-2021 05:08PM

Flying Fox wrote: »

AZ is making up a fifth of our supply this quarter, so what are you talking about?

I'm not asking to jump the queue, just to keep my place in the queue.

There is a reason why so many countries are restricting it to older age groups, it's hardly an unreasonable view. No need for the insults.

Your place in the queue is by age. When they reach you they will have a supply of AZ and a supply of the rest. They will not have enough to offer Pfizer or Moderna or JandJ to those who want it.

If you get assigned AZ and say you will refuse it but want to keep your place in the queue that is basically saying you want to get the Pfizer or other non-AZ and have your AZ assigned to someone else.

There is not a magic supply that will allow you to have your preferred vaccine without inconveniencing someone else.

stephenjmcd · 08-04-2021 05:09PM

fin12 wrote: »

I don’t want special treatment , I don’t think they should be giving this vaccine to anybody .

Any why shouldn't they be giving it to anybody?

It's a rare side effect. Every vaccine has rare side effects.

At the end of the day is the vaccine saving lives, yes absolutely it is

LLMMLL · 08-04-2021 05:10PM

stefanovich wrote: »

There's certainly a lot of incentivisation happening. Vaccine bonus etc.

Will it end up being a choice between taking a vaccine or staying in lockdown?

Nobody can predict but it’s doubtful any major two tier system will come into place where the vaccinated get free reign and the unvaccinated are housebound.

josip · 08-04-2021 05:10PM

begbysback wrote: »

They can shove their vaccine up their arses

It's intramuscular, not a suppository.

LLMMLL · 08-04-2021 05:12PM

fin12 wrote: »

I don’t want special treatment , I don’t think they should be giving this vaccine to anybody .

So you think it’s better to have more deaths overall rather than continue with this vaccine?

08-04-2021 05:12PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

Your place in the queue is by age. When they reach you they will have a supply of AZ and a supply of the rest. They will not have enough to offer Pfizer or Moderna or JandJ to those who want it.

If you get assigned AZ and say you will refuse it but want to keep your place in the queue that is basically saying you want to get the Pfizer or other non-AZ and have your AZ assigned to someone else.

There is not a magic supply that will allow you to have your preferred vaccine without inconveniencing someone else.

By the time they get to me there will likely be far more supply of the other vaccines than AZ, and the advice will likely have changed as more of these clotting events occur.

I really feel for the people who have to make this decision now though.

astrofool · 08-04-2021 05:14PM

stefanovich wrote: »

Okay - but my assertion was that drug companies cannot be sued, I was referring to the US in my initial comment but it does appear that the contract the EU has with AZ protects them from litigation.

Europeans can sue Pfizer/Moderna/AZ/J&J if it is found they have been negligent and Pfizer/Moderna/AZ will have to make the payouts, the UK citizens will be able to sue but the liability will be handled by the government. The FDA hasn't approved AZ, so not an issue there (and why you would refer to the FDA who hasn't approved AZ in a thread about AZ is weird, but more about picking and choosing sources to suit your narrative, UK would have been a better choice for you, your argument is going all over the place at the moment, suggest being a bit more detail oriented).

moved edit from above:
I would also note that the phrasing you're using about programming cells, and implying that the manufacturers don't have liability are typically used by anti-vaxxers, now, I'm not calling you an anti-vaxxer, but if you continue using that phrasing, other people will assume you are anti-vax/pharma

Larbre34 · 08-04-2021 05:14PM

I won't accept AZ if offered, but I am willing to wait however long it takes to receive another type if there happens to be pressure on the supply of the other three at the time. I will sign a waiver to that effect and I will continue to protect myself and others by observing established protocols.

Although its likely moot, as AZ is not being advised for use in my age group anyway, as things stand and I'm not currently due to be jabbed until August.

LLMMLL · 08-04-2021 05:15PM

Flying Fox wrote: »

By the time they get to me there will likely be far more supply of the other vaccines than AZ, and the advice will likely have changed as more of these clotting events occur.

I really feel for the people who have to make this decision now though.

They’re likely to get to you in the next 2-3 months where you will likely have a 1 in 4 chance of being assigned AZ.

Are you saying you expect to be able to refuse it AND keep your place in the queue if you are assigned AZ?

Or are you saying you are happy to go to the back of the queue and take your chances? Which is fair enough.

noplacehere · 08-04-2021 05:15PM

Made the decision last week. In my thirties. Very high risk. Bounced up for the shot. So much safer for me. Just kept an eye out for headaches and would have ran straight for A and E if needed (it wasn’t)

stefanovich · 08-04-2021 05:22PM

astrofool wrote: »

Europeans can sue Pfizer/Moderna/AZ/J&J if it is found they have been negligent and Pfizer/Moderna/AZ will have to make the payouts, the UK citizens will be able to sue but the liability will be handled by the government. The FDA hasn't approved AZ, so not an issue there (and why you would refer to the FDA who hasn't approved AZ in a thread about AZ is weird, but more about picking and choosing sources to suit your narrative, UK would have been a better choice for you, your argument is going all over the place at the moment, suggest being a bit more detail oriented).

moved edit from above:
I would also note that the phrasing you're using about programming cells, and implying that the manufacturers don't have liability are typically used by anti-vaxxers, now, I'm not calling you an anti-vaxxer, but if you continue using that phrasing, other people will assume you are anti-vax/pharma

The contract with AZ says they cannot be sued. Am I wrong?

I vaccinated my kids so I'm not anti vax. I also don't just immediately trust drug companies when nearly every one of them has been sued to hell and back for faking trials - promoting off label use etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_pharmaceutical_settlements

mRNA based vaccines are new technology and have specific risks associated with them. It is a novel approach that has never been approved for use in humans until now.

You accuse me of using scary language but they do program your cells to create proteins that look like the virus.

stefanovich · 08-04-2021 05:23PM

noplacehere wrote: »

Made the decision last week. In my thirties. Very high risk. Bounced up for the shot. So much safer for me. Just kept an eye out for headaches and would have ran straight for A and E if needed (it wasn’t)

Keep an eye out for petechiae too.

Jane1012 · 08-04-2021 05:23PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

That’s not what forced means. Forced means you have no choice.

You had a choice. You made the choice. You’re going to be fine.

What you’re actually saying is you want special treatment. You want the vaccine that is in short supply and is being used in the over 70s.

quote]

That’s not what they are saying, however they should get special treatment as they are at very high risk - they shouldn’t be put at a disadvantage by given a vaccine that has serious concerns now (rightly or wrongly) ... and the MRNA vaccine’s are not in short supply compared to AZ. We are due to get more than double Pfizer’s vs AZ over the next 11 weeks.
You clearly have a hobby of attacking vulnerable people who are conflicted about a very difficult situation, you don’t seem to fall in to a high risk group so you have no idea what we are going through so just give your patronising tone a rest will you!

FileNotFound · 08-04-2021 05:26PM

Surely people are willing to wait a few weeks to see what hmthe issue really is, what groups it's impacting etc.

Moderna was causing bells palsy, after some investigation it was shown it was related to facial fillers.

So far what I have heard is that clotting risk seems more focused in females of a lower age?

If it turns out to be in relation to specific groups there will be no need for those not within them to be overly worried I suppose.

fin12 · 08-04-2021 05:26PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

So you think it’s better to have more deaths overall rather than continue with this vaccine?

But this is contributing to deaths aswell or do the deaths from Covid only matter

Jane1012 · 08-04-2021 05:27PM

FileNotFound wrote: »

Surely people are willing to wait a few weeks to see what hmthe issue really is, what groups it's impacting etc.

Moderna was causing bells palsy, after some investigation it was shown it was related to facial fillers.

So far what I have heard is that clotting risk seems more focused in females of a lower age?

If it turns out to be in relation to specific groups there will be no need for those not within them to be overly worried I suppose.

Yes but according to some posters on here we shouldn’t have to option to wait... it’s take it now or back of the Q apparently

LLMMLL · 08-04-2021 05:28PM

Jane1012 wrote: »

quote]

That’s not what they are saying, however they should get special treatment as they are at very high risk - they shouldn’t be put at a disadvantage by given a vaccine that has serious concerns now (rightly or wrongly) ... and the MRNA vaccine’s are not in short supply compared to AZ. We are due to get more than double Pfizer’s vs AZ over the next 11 weeks.
You clearly have a hobby of attacking vulnerable people who are conflicted about a very difficult situation, you don’t seem to fall in to a high risk group so you have no idea what we are going through so just give your patronising tone a rest will you!

I’m diabetic. And I don’t like your characterisation of vulnerable. I am high risk but that does not make me vulnerable in the mental sense which makes me sound like someone who does not have the mental capacity to have my opinions questioned on the internet.

It doesn’t matter how much Pfizer vs AZ we get. Overall both are in short supply. If you demand your vaccine preference then someone else doesn’t get theirs.

LLMMLL · 08-04-2021 05:29PM

Jane1012 wrote: »

Yes but according to some posters on here we shouldn’t have to option to wait... it’s take it now or back of the Q apparently

Going to the back of the queue is waiting. What do you actually expect to happen by waiting?

We will not have enough Pfizer for everyone who wants it. If you “wait” in any other sense than going to the back of the queue that means someone else does not get their vaccine choice.

Your definition of “wait” is basically asking for personal special treatment.

FileNotFound · 08-04-2021 05:30PM

stefanovich wrote: »

The contract with AZ says they cannot be sued. Am I wrong?

I vaccinated my kids so I'm not anti vax. I also don't just immediately trust drug companies when nearly every one of them has been sued to hell and back for faking trials - promoting off label use etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_pharmaceutical_settlements

mRNA based vaccines are new technology and have specific risks associated with them. It is a novel approach that has never been approved for use in humans until now.

You accuse me of using scary language but they do program your cells to create proteins that look like the virus.

All an mRNA vaccine does is set the body building a harmless foreign protein that happens to be also in the covid virus, you're body learns to kill the protein without the risks associated with the virus.

Then should the virus enter your body, your body spots this protein and attacks and eats it which prevents the virus from doing its damage and growth.

It doesn't do anything more. It's like a training session for your body before the big fight. Call it the punching bag.

astrofool · 08-04-2021 05:30PM

stefanovich wrote: »

The contract with AZ says they cannot be sued. Am I wrong?

I vaccinated my kids so I'm not anti vax. I also don't just immediately trust drug companies when nearly every one of them has been sued to hell and back for faking trials - promoting off label use etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_pharmaceutical_settlements

mRNA based vaccines are new technology and have specific risks associated with them. It is a novel approach that has never been approved for use in humans until now.

You accuse me of using scary language but they do program your cells to create proteins that look like the virus.

As pointed out already, the contract for supply is independent of the approval and ultimately where liability lies. If AZ wanted the EU to take liability, they would have applied for emergency approval, like they did in the UK when the data wasn't as complete, the fact they went for CMA with the EMA means they can be held liable (it's the key difference between emergency and conditional marketing approval, now you know, so hopefully you won't spread the liability lie elsewhere).

As mentioned, your phrasing is that of someone who is anti-pharma, I would use the terms used by the scientists instead of terms like programming, which isn't accurate.

mRNA is a new, decade old technology, it's new in vaccine terms because we haven't needed new vaccines in a long time, it's quite old in medicine terms, and is well understood and tested and very very safe.

LLMMLL · 08-04-2021 05:31PM

fin12 wrote: »

But this is contributing to deaths aswell or do the deaths from Covid only matter

If you have 2 courses of action and you have to take one or the others and one leads to more deaths then it’s pretty obvious.

It’s not that blood clot vaccine deaths matter less. It’s that less people will die from them.

astrofool · 08-04-2021 05:32PM

FileNotFound wrote: »

All an mRNA vaccine does is set the body building a harmless foreign protein that happens to be also in the covid virus, you're body learns to kill the protein without the risks associated with the virus.

Then should the virus enter your body, your body attacks that protein which prevts the virus from doing its damage and growth.

It doesn't do anything more. It's like a training session for your body before the big fight. Call it the punching bag.

I've never known this particular poster to back down, so my posts are for the audience of everyone else reading, and making it clear that the posts are alarmist and should be disregarded.

FileNotFound · 08-04-2021 05:32PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

If you have 2 courses of action and you have to take one or the others and one leads to more deaths then it’s pretty obvious.

It’s not that blood clot vaccine deaths matter less. It’s that less people will die from them.

Also we may find contributing factors that will allow us to identify potential risk v non risk groups.

fin12 · 08-04-2021 05:33PM

Jane1012 wrote: »

Yes but according to some posters on here we shouldn’t have to option to wait... it’s take it now or back of the Q apparently

I was told I would be offered the AstraZeneca one again after going to the back of the queue, so what choice was that ?

stefanovich · 08-04-2021 05:33PM

Jane1012 wrote: »

Yes but according to some posters on here we shouldn’t have to option to wait... it’s take it now or back of the Q apparently

Lots of anecdotal evidence of women having heavy periods, even when they are on the pill or periods lasting 3 weeks or more.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-9446907/Some-women-report-heavier-painful-PERIODS-getting-COVID-19-vaccine.html

Jane1012 · 08-04-2021 05:33PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

I’m diabetic. And I don’t like your characterisation of vulnerable. I am high risk but that does not make me vulnerable in the mental sense which makes me sound like someone who does not have the mental capacity to have my opinions questioned on the internet.

It doesn’t matter how much Pfizer vs AZ we get. Overall both are in short supply. If you demand your vaccine preference then someone else doesn’t get theirs.

So you’re not vulnerable then lucky you. I am in a vulnerable state due to the decisions I have to make very soon for both myself and my unborn child. I can assure you I have the mental capacity to make a decision but why should I have to make it with a gun to my head right now while everything is still being investigated. I shouldn’t have to! All I am saying is I remain very high risk, it shouldn’t be a just take it, it’s fine but NIAC are reviewing so may change in the coming days. I am being told to take a vaccine that according to the HSE guide has only been given to pregnant animals, whereas in the same guide it mentions MRNA vaccines have been given to over 15,000 pregnant woman. But if I don’t, it’s off with your head and back of the Q!

FileNotFound · 08-04-2021 05:34PM

astrofool wrote: »

I've never known this particular poster to back down, so my posts are for the audience of everyone else reading, and making it clear that the posts are alarmist and should be disregarded.

Thanks for the heads up.

What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

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